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Level Shifter 3.3V to 28V

J

Jim Thompson

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:22:56 -0700, Jim Thompson

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:16:26 -0800, John Larkin
[snip]

and ghastly
substrate diode issues, too.

Not sure what you're referring to here. Pulling an input way below
ground??

Not way below, more like -0.3 volts! If you do that to a single input,
*all* the amp stages can go bonkers. It's really amazing.

The old National linear book, printed on dirty brown tissue paper, had
a tiny, barely-readable footnote on the '324 data sheet, in about
3-point type, that warned of the -0.3 volt thing.

Hey, here it is:

http://s2.supload.com/free/LM324.JPG/view/


John

Hmmmm! -0.3V was a CYA thing, it took a vBE below ground to
disrupt... and I've only seen issues with a single OpAmp, not the
whole package... UNLESS: OpAmp railing tripped the PNP mirrors on
certain brands ??

...Jim Thompson

It was not far from 0.3 on the National parts, and all four opamps
would rail, one polarity at first, then they'd rail in the other
direction as the clamping current was increased. I wouldn't joke about
a thing like this.

John

I haven't done any discrete stuff in years, but I recall using Ge
diodes for such occasions ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Of course I thought about that, especially since I could just read out, say,
10 pots via a multiplexer and control 10 timing channels that way.

Problem is: I've never gotten my head around any embedded design, so I'm
staying in the analog domain.

Not to critise, but as a hint, long time ago I designed some video stuff with
analog and normal logic, it was boards full of chips (counters, comparators,
what not).
Then I got more orders, and replaced the whole thing with a PIC microprocessor.
That made things more reliable, the hardware simpler, the cost much lower,
the stability better, and the profit bigger, much bigger.
Also if there is a problem, you can simply update the soft.
I dunno if you can program a PIC, but if not, then have a go some day.
It is worth it.

BTW, the gadget in question is a "sequencer" that actuates some relays after
individually programmable delays. It's going to be used for special effects
in a film studio.

Especially in the 'film studio', I am familiar with that environment,
if they see something, then they also have a hundred more ideas of things
they want.
Re-programmable logic may just allow you to provide it to them fast.
 
J

Joseph H Allen

Robert Latest said:
Well, just yesterday I designed-in a 555 (a 7555, actually) for the first
time in m,y life. I need an oscillator whose frequency can be changed over a
range of at least 200:1 with a 100k 10-turn pot. You need something with
some oomph to whack that timing cap around with R < 500 ohms.
Anything better for this than the 555? 100k is the limit for the pot because
they get pricey for higher values.

How about 10000:1? A truly remarkable chip is the precision LM331 voltage to
frequency converter- .01% linearity (4 decimal digits in a cheap old chip).

The 555 is crap, I wish it would go away. It's only advantage is wide
operating voltage range. I much prefer the TTL timing chips over it: HC123,
and HC221 for lower precision applications.
 
J

John Larkin

---
Yeah, that's a good idea. With the spec's for the LED's Vf all over
the place and its tempco causing that Vf to drift, it's going to be
really likely that it's going to fit in just right between the
logic's Voh an Vol. Oh, well, though, you've got it covered with
that: "or something."

Given a cmos fpga running at 3.3 volts Vccio, the unloaded logic will
swing to microvolts of either rail. Do you really think that a visible
led couldn't be used to reliably bias the other side of the opamps, to
anywhere between, say, 0.1 and 3.2 volts? Why would tempco matter?

You are letting your emotions shut down your ability to think, just
because you need to find fault with everything I say. That's very bad
engineering.

---


---
If you're getting annoyed, then this _is_ real life.

Checking our stock records, it looks like LM358 (daul opamp) and LM393
(comparator) both cost us about 15 cents, duals in SO-8. Our placement
and inspection costs are high, so eliminating the pullups would be a
good deal for us. But we don't worry much about pennies of parts cost;
usually there's a bigger picture.

We seldom buy quads, because duals take up about the same space but
are a lot more flexible. The op wanted 6 channels, I think.

---
Certainly not, but that's not what I was talking about. What I
_was_ talking about was that since you said "we" in reference to the
design, then you must have been a part of it, which is in conflict
with your statement: "I didn't design this particular level
shifter,"

Of course I'm part of it. I work with all my engineers, and we
brainstorm circuits all the time... every day in fact; it's a sport,
actually. I think the fast opamp level shifter, and the overall pulser
architecture, came out of such a session, and I can't remember whose
idea it was. In a proper brainstorm session, you never really know,
and you don't keep score: the ideas are enough. I certainly didn't do
the detailed circuit design on this one... I let other people have
fun, too.

John
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Actually it's in the current datasheets of the LM393 as well! I got bitten
by this just yesterday in a circuit where the 393 goes haywire when the
input goes negative, fed through a 50k resistor, despite my having added
clamp diodes. I put in a Schottky diode but haven't tested this yet.

Very annoying. I don't have any resonable negative rail to work with (just
-40V), there's little space on the board etc. I can yank up the input series
resistor and pray to get away with the Schottky. This is a one-off.

0.3V is weird. I always figured I'd pretty safe with a diode drop. Not so.

robert

IIRC, you can do it with a Si diode drop *if* you also have a series
resistor after the diode-- something like 10K, again IIRC.



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Of course I thought about that, especially since I could just read out, say,
10 pots via a multiplexer and control 10 timing channels that way.

Problem is: I've never gotten my head around any embedded design, so I'm
staying in the analog domain.

BTW, the gadget in question is a "sequencer" that actuates some relays after
individually programmable delays. It's going to be used for special effects
in a film studio.

robert

A microcontroller would be a natural for something like that. Maybe
it's time to try your hand. You could get much better timing accuracy
as well.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

A *power* schottky should work.

If you don't mind a few hundred mA of reverse leakage at high
temperatures.
The LM35 family of temperature sensors is similarly delicate. The
thing about them is that National *tells* you to pull the outputs
below ground to read negative temperatures. My advice is to not do it.
If you want to read below 0C, use the Fahrenheit version and don't
pull it below ground.

John

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
K

krw

If you program an fpga in vhdl or verilog and treat it as a pure logic
engine, you don't have to know much about electricity.
That might work until the hardware comes back. I'm having the
opposite problem now. I'm just a hired-gun VHDL jockey. The board
is all screwed up (which I discovered in about ten minutes after they
grudgingly gave me the schematic) but the designers aren't terribly
worried, yet (the fire has been lit).
 
R

Robert Latest

Jan said:
Especially in the 'film studio', I am familiar with that environment,
if they see something, then they also have a hundred more ideas of things
they want.

Yes, but what they need most is reliable gear, especially in advertising.
Nothing's worse than flaky gear with the agency and the customer present
(and are they present, oh boy). That's the time when the producer has to
unobtrusively shoo everybody to the buffet (that's what you need the buffet
for) while the techie (me) goes to work.
Re-programmable logic may just allow you to provide it to them fast.

Yeh, I know. It's just that I never found the time or energy to get started
with the PIC shit.

robert
 
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