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HOW TO ID-- A 12 VOLT ZENER DIODE --ONE WATT --

ok
I think you are using a circuit from a 3rd world country designed by someone who knows little about electronics.
You did not see the photo I posted of the TIP122 pins. The middle leg is the collector but the schematic of the circuit shows the zener diode connected to the base, not the collector. Look at my copies of the schematic where I labelled the pins since you do not know anything about transistors.

A 12V zener diode limits the voltage across it to 12V when reverse biased and is an ordinary 0.7V diode when forward biased. A 12V lead-acid battery is charged at about 13.8V to 14.4V. This horrible circuit has a maximum output of only about 10V.
----
ok------Thanks again Audioguru

That TIP 122 /zener set up --as you say -is-possibly-- a 3rd world (probably Swagatam nightmare)
I tried one of his ("simple FM radio circuits ---few years ago)
It even baffled a PH d ---expert on this forum ---he concluded same as--you have--
(horrible 3rd world abortion circuit) after weeks of trying to help me get a signal from it--
(used a BD 139 TRANSISTOR)
Never worked---

OK I have scrapped that TIP circuit ---even though I ordered that nuisance Zener diode
from USA supplier --found the catalog--description of 12volt one amp ZENERS
IN 4742 fits the zener I require ---its on order ---&a looooooooooong wait --just in case I find a decent reliable circuit using TIP power transistors--

Found a bridge rectifier module -called KBPO4--
use as a battery charger circuit --simple --no other components --
connects to the transformer 13 v AC supply ---
but out put is 11 .9 volts ---not the 13 .6 volt one amp- I require for charging
motorcycle lead acid 12 v batteries--

Can this unit be incorporated /modified into a circuit --using caps /resistors etc
to create a 13 .6 volt battery charger?--
If you can show me how to construct a battery charger circuit --using this
sealed module ---would be a big help ?

If not ---I will try elsewhere
many thanks ---- Zendode
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
I am not sure I can properly "teach" a 70 year old codger about zener diodes. Not even with videos showing happy electrons marching around the circuit. You need to get some basic concepts nailed down, such as Ohm's Law and Kirchoff's current and voltage laws and how to use them to analyze circuits . And those concepts have NOTHING to do with quantum physics. Also, understanding a V-I graph is probably the most essential "visual" concept. The graph I posted in post #17 has just two active quadrants: I and III. Nothing happens in Quadrants II and IV. The lines on the graph represent the current through a diode (any diode, including zener diodes) on the vertical axis at the voltages applied on the horizontal axis.

In a thousand words or more...

You have positive currents and negative currents, positive voltages and negative voltages. These are plotted in pairs: for every voltage on the plot there is one and only one current plotted. Positive voltages represent forward bias of the diode. Positive on the anode and negative on the cathode causes positive current. Negative voltages represent reverse bias of the diode. Negative on the anode and positive on the cathode causes negative current. You start out at zero voltage and zero current and either apply a positive forward bias or a negative reverse bias and measure the resulting current to create the graph. Make sure you have a fresh battery in your digital multimeter when taking measurements.

If you substitute a resistor for the diode, and plot current at various positive and negative voltages applied across the resistor, the plot will yield a straight line that passes through the origin, rises in a positive direction for positive voltages (Quadrant I), and falls in a negative direction for negative voltages (Quadrant III). The slope of this line is the ratio of the current at any given point to the voltage at that point, which by definition is the conductance (I)/(V) =1/(R). Thus, lower value resistances (higher conductance) will produce steeper slopes approaching a vertical line, whilst higher value resistances (lower conductance) will produce shallow slopes approaching a horizontal line. Easy peasy. Now on to actual diodes. See graph in post #17 for visual aid.

You will note that the line for forward-biased diodes is a curve, going sharply upward to the right of the "knee" in the curve in Quadrant I. For reverse-biased diodes, the "curve" is almost horizontal at a very small current (leakage current), until either the zener voltage is reached (zener diodes) or the break-down voltage is reached (regular diodes). In both cases (zener diode or regular diode), the negative current increases sharply at a certain reverse voltage. Don't worry about how or why this happens. It just does. This reverse current is then limited only by the external resistance in series with the diode.

The same is true for forward-biased diodes: the current is limited only by the external resistance in series with the diode. However, for forward-biased diodes the transition from low current to high current is spread over a much wider range of forward bias voltage.

Some people will talk about "ideal" diodes where the curve in Quadrant I is just a vertical line, parallel to the vertical (current) axis, and intersecting the horizontal (voltage) axis at 0.7 V. From the origin to +0.7 V the "ideal" diode conducts zero current, behaving like an open switch. Then suddenly, at +0.7 V, the diode behaves like a closed switch, conducting with a voltage drop of 0.7 V but with current limited only by whatever external resistance is in series with the diode.

When a reverse voltage is applied to this "ideal" diode, zero current flows and the "curve" is a straight line parallel and coincident with the horizontal axis, extending from +0.7 V back through the origin in the negative direction... until the zener voltage or the breakdown voltage is reached. At that point, the "curve" dives straight down, parallel to the veritical axis and, again, the current is limited only by the external series resistance.

So, is this "ideal" diode model of any practical use, or is it like the "ideal" projectile fired from a rifled gun barrel that takes zero time to reach a target at any distance and without any bullet drop caused by gravity? Sure would have liked to have one of those "magic" bullets, whether bustin' varmints or bigger game! Never gonna happen with real bullets, but the answer is YES for real diodes. The "ideal" diode model is useful. It allows you to make circuit calculations that are "gud enuf" for circuit design, You can calculate the power that will be dissipated in the zener diode when it is reverse-biased and conducting its rated current. You can calculate the ohmic value of the necessary current-limiting resistor and you can calculate the power that will be dissipated in that resistor and in the zener diode. And this is all you need to calculate in order to use a zener diode.

In most circuits, a zener diode is always reverse biased with sufficient voltage to cause conduction at the zener voltage, using a power supply that provides more than the zener voltage. With any less power supply voltage, the zener does not conduct any current at all. The difference between the power supply voltage and the zener voltage is the voltage drop across a series current-limiting resistor.

So, using the "ideal" model, you first determine how much current you want in the zener diode when it is doing its thing (conducting at the zener voltage, which we assume is a constant. It is a good idea (for reasons explained later) to make this current the same as the maximum current that will be drawn by the load that you attach in parallel with the zener diode. If this load current is insignificant, as it is in the circuit using the TIP122, then choose any small current that is less than the maximum current rating of the zener diode. For the TIP122, the load current is the base current and it will be only about 1/1000th of the emitter current. This is important because the current drawn at the TIP122 emitter is NOT the load current of the zener. So, if the emitter is charging a battery at, say, 2 A then its base current will be something on the order of 2 mA. Pick a zener current of, say, 30 mA and you should be okay.

Next, pick a zener voltage appropriate for your circuit. As @Audioguru has mentioned, this is a horrible circuit for charging a battery. Using a 12 V zener, it will not charge a 12 V lead-acid battery which requires at least 13 V (or more) for even a "trickle" charge. Worse than that, the two-diode voltage drop from base-to-emitter of the Darlington-connected TIP122 will result in more than 1.4 V less voltage on the emitter output than is present on the base input, i.e., the zener voltage. That means the output will be on the order of (12 - 1.4) = 10.6 V. This may be sufficient to charge a 9 V NiCd battery, but there is no way it will charge a lead-acid 12 V battery.

There are other reasons why this is a horrible battery charger, but let's not dwell on that while I am trying to explain how zener diodes work. You need more than 13 V to charge a 12 V lead-acid battery, so add 1.4 V to that to allow for the base-emitter voltage drop, arriving at a minimum zener voltage of 14.4 V. So pick a 15 V zener diode to stand any chance of getting the circuit to charge a 12 V lead-acid battery.

So now you have a 15 V zener drawing 30 mA and providing a voltage to the base of the TIP122. That means the zener must dissipate (15)(0.03) = 0.45 W = 450 mW of power. That's a bit on the high side for your typical 400 mW glass-encapsulated diode, so up-size to 1 W to be "safe". Can you identify a 1 W zener diode by looking at it? No. You must test it to see how hot it gets while dissipating one watt. This may result in destruction of the test sample, so have a few spares on hand. You can "guess" how much power a salvaged diode will safely dissipate by comparing sizes, but it won't be an educated guess. It will be a pure rectal extraction.

One simple way to measure the power dissipation capability of a diode is to forward bias it and apply a variable DC voltage source to it through a current-limiting resistor. Adjust the power supply voltage to vary the current while measuring both the current and the voltage drop across the diode. Why forward bias? Because you want a fairly constant and low voltage across the diode whilst adjusting and monitoring the current. Be quick on the 4-banger calculator to multiple voltage measured across the diode and current measured through the diode to arrive at the power dissipated in the diode. Two meters, one for voltage and one for current are highly recommended.

Monitor the diode case temperature. If it gets too hot too touch, that's too much power. Assuming you can find a zener diode that operates continuously at one watt dissipation without excessive heating, don't assume that every diode with the same size and shape (unless it is identical) will also operate at one watt. There is a lot of variation in manufacturing, so even threaded stud-mounted diodes you would think could handle a boatload of power may turn out to be wimps. It all depends on the internal construction. If you can get a part number and the corresponding datasheet, you can use that information instead of performing your own power dissipation tests. But where's the fun it that? And someone might accuse you of practicing engineering if you go that route.

Now that you have found a 15 V zener, and it is capable of dissipating one watt of electrical power. What next? Calculate the value for the current-limiting resistor you connect is series between the zener diode and your DC power supply. That value will be the found by subtracting the zener voltage from the power supply voltage and dividing the difference by the zener current. Your posted circuit claims a DC power supply voltage of 19.4 V. This will vary with the mains supply voltage, the amount of current drawn, and perhaps the phase of the moon. Treat this number as a starting figure to get you into the ballpark. Subtracting 15 V gets you 4.4 V across the current-limiting resistor. Dividing that by 0.03 A gets you a value of about 147 ohms, which will dissipate (4.4)(0.03) = 0.132 W. A 1/4 watt resistor would be "safe" to use there.

Life gets more interesting when you add a load connected in parallel with the zener diode. Assuming the power supply voltage doesn't change with this load, and the zener voltage is also constant, then the current through the current-limiting resistor remains constant no matter what the load is! What does change is the current through the zener diode. It decreases as the load current increases, because the sum of the zener current plus the load current is equal to the current through the current-limiting resistor... and that current is constant if the power supply voltage doesn't change.

Now why would you get a much larger voltage out of your "battery charger" when you used the big, black, diode instead of zener diode? The simple explanation is you have inserted an ordinary rectifier in a reverse-biased direction and it is NOT conducting. The entire power supply voltage, nominally 19.4 V, is applied to the base of the TIP122 and approximately 1.4 V less than that appears on the emitter of the TIP122. The unloaded output soars to about 18 V. To test this theory, just remove the big black diode but leave the resistor connected between the base and the power supply.

Finally, why is this circuit so horrible? Even with a 15 V zener it is still horrible. Lead-acid cells should be charged with a variable constant-current power supply while monitoring the battery terminal voltage and reducing the charging current to a trickle current as the open-circuit battery terminal voltage approaches the full-charge voltage. A constant-voltage power supply, which is what this circuit attempts to provide, does not do this. There is NO current-limiting resistance between the battery and the power supply. The battery charging current will be determined by whatever the effective series resistance happens to be, a complicated function of transformer selection, rectifier bridge selection, "smoothing" capacitor selection, wire gauge and connecting length... but not the phase of the moon. You are lucky you are not using a larger transformer in your bread board setup. BTW, I haven't seen an actual bread board setup using real wooden boards since the 1950s. Congratulations on keeping this tradition going, even if you did cheat by screwing a proto-board to the bread board.:D
 
I am not sure I can properly "teach" a 70 year old codger about zener diodes. Not even with videos showing happy electrons marching around the circuit. You need to get some basic concepts nailed down, such as Ohm's Law and Kirchoff's current and voltage laws and how to use them to analyze circuits . And those concepts have NOTHING to do with quantum physics. Also, understanding a V-I graph is probably the most essential "visual" concept. The graph I posted in post #17 has just two active quadrants: I and III. Nothing happens in Quadrants II and IV. The lines on the graph represent the current through a diode (any diode, including zener diodes) on the vertical axis at the voltages applied on the horizontal axis.

In a thousand words or more...

You have positive currents and negative currents, positive voltages and negative voltages. These are plotted in pairs: for every voltage on the plot there is one and only one current plotted. Positive voltages represent forward bias of the diode. Positive on the anode and negative on the cathode causes positive current. Negative voltages represent reverse bias of the diode. Negative on the anode and positive on the cathode causes negative current. You start out at zero voltage and zero current and either apply a positive forward bias or a negative reverse bias and measure the resulting current to create the graph. Make sure you have a fresh battery in your digital multimeter when taking measurements.

If you substitute a resistor for the diode, and plot current at various positive and negative voltages applied across the resistor, the plot will yield a straight line that passes through the origin, rises in a positive direction for positive voltages (Quadrant I), and falls in a negative direction for negative voltages (Quadrant III). The slope of this line is the ratio of the current at any given point to the voltage at that point, which by definition is the conductance (I)/(V) =1/(R). Thus, lower value resistances (higher conductance) will produce steeper slopes approaching a vertical line, whilst higher value resistances (lower conductance) will produce shallow slopes approaching a horizontal line. Easy peasy. Now on to actual diodes. See graph in post #17 for visual aid.

You will note that the line for forward-biased diodes is a curve, going sharply upward to the right of the "knee" in the curve in Quadrant I. For reverse-biased diodes, the "curve" is almost horizontal at a very small current (leakage current), until either the zener voltage is reached (zener diodes) or the break-down voltage is reached (regular diodes). In both cases (zener diode or regular diode), the negative current increases sharply at a certain reverse voltage. Don't worry about how or why this happens. It just does. This reverse current is then limited only by the external resistance in series with the diode.

The same is true for forward-biased diodes: the current is limited only by the external resistance in series with the diode. However, for forward-biased diodes the transition from low current to high current is spread over a much wider range of forward bias voltage.

Some people will talk about "ideal" diodes where the curve in Quadrant I is just a vertical line, parallel to the vertical (current) axis, and intersecting the horizontal (voltage) axis at 0.7 V. From the origin to +0.7 V the "ideal" diode conducts zero current, behaving like an open switch. Then suddenly, at +0.7 V, the diode behaves like a closed switch, conducting with a voltage drop of 0.7 V but with current limited only by whatever external resistance is in series with the diode.

When a reverse voltage is applied to this "ideal" diode, zero current flows and the "curve" is a straight line parallel and coincident with the horizontal axis, extending from +0.7 V back through the origin in the negative direction... until the zener voltage or the breakdown voltage is reached. At that point, the "curve" dives straight down, parallel to the veritical axis and, again, the current is limited only by the external series resistance.

So, is this "ideal" diode model of any practical use, or is it like the "ideal" projectile fired from a rifled gun barrel that takes zero time to reach a target at any distance and without any bullet drop caused by gravity? Sure would have liked to have one of those "magic" bullets, whether bustin' varmints or bigger game! Never gonna happen with real bullets, but the answer is YES for real diodes. The "ideal" diode model is useful. It allows you to make circuit calculations that are "gud enuf" for circuit design, You can calculate the power that will be dissipated in the zener diode when it is reverse-biased and conducting its rated current. You can calculate the ohmic value of the necessary current-limiting resistor and you can calculate the power that will be dissipated in that resistor and in the zener diode. And this is all you need to calculate in order to use a zener diode.

In most circuits, a zener diode is always reverse biased with sufficient voltage to cause conduction at the zener voltage, using a power supply that provides more than the zener voltage. With any less power supply voltage, the zener does not conduct any current at all. The difference between the power supply voltage and the zener voltage is the voltage drop across a series current-limiting resistor.

So, using the "ideal" model, you first determine how much current you want in the zener diode when it is doing its thing (conducting at the zener voltage, which we assume is a constant. It is a good idea (for reasons explained later) to make this current the same as the maximum current that will be drawn by the load that you attach in parallel with the zener diode. If this load current is insignificant, as it is in the circuit using the TIP122, then choose any small current that is less than the maximum current rating of the zener diode. For the TIP122, the load current is the base current and it will be only about 1/1000th of the emitter current. This is important because the current drawn at the TIP122 emitter is NOT the load current of the zener. So, if the emitter is charging a battery at, say, 2 A then its base current will be something on the order of 2 mA. Pick a zener current of, say, 30 mA and you should be okay.

Next, pick a zener voltage appropriate for your circuit. As @Audioguru has mentioned, this is a horrible circuit for charging a battery. Using a 12 V zener, it will not charge a 12 V lead-acid battery which requires at least 13 V (or more) for even a "trickle" charge. Worse than that, the two-diode voltage drop from base-to-emitter of the Darlington-connected TIP122 will result in more than 1.4 V less voltage on the emitter output than is present on the base input, i.e., the zener voltage. That means the output will be on the order of (12 - 1.4) = 10.6 V. This may be sufficient to charge a 9 V NiCd battery, but there is no way it will charge a lead-acid 12 V battery.

There are other reasons why this is a horrible battery charger, but let's not dwell on that while I am trying to explain how zener diodes work. You need more than 13 V to charge a 12 V lead-acid battery, so add 1.4 V to that to allow for the base-emitter voltage drop, arriving at a minimum zener voltage of 14.4 V. So pick a 15 V zener diode to stand any chance of getting the circuit to charge a 12 V lead-acid battery.

So now you have a 15 V zener drawing 30 mA and providing a voltage to the base of the TIP122. That means the zener must dissipate (15)(0.03) = 0.45 W = 450 mW of power. That's a bit on the high side for your typical 400 mW glass-encapsulated diode, so up-size to 1 W to be "safe". Can you identify a 1 W zener diode by looking at it? No. You must test it to see how hot it gets while dissipating one watt. This may result in destruction of the test sample, so have a few spares on hand. You can "guess" how much power a salvaged diode will safely dissipate by comparing sizes, but it won't be an educated guess. It will be a pure rectal extraction.

One simple way to measure the power dissipation capability of a diode is to forward bias it and apply a variable DC voltage source to it through a current-limiting resistor. Adjust the power supply voltage to vary the current while measuring both the current and the voltage drop across the diode. Why forward bias? Because you want a fairly constant and low voltage across the diode whilst adjusting and monitoring the current. Be quick on the 4-banger calculator to multiple voltage measured across the diode and current measured through the diode to arrive at the power dissipated in the diode. Two meters, one for voltage and one for current are highly recommended.

Monitor the diode case temperature. If it gets too hot too touch, that's too much power. Assuming you can find a zener diode that operates continuously at one watt dissipation without excessive heating, don't assume that every diode with the same size and shape (unless it is identical) will also operate at one watt. There is a lot of variation in manufacturing, so even threaded stud-mounted diodes you would think could handle a boatload of power may turn out to be wimps. It all depends on the internal construction. If you can get a part number and the corresponding datasheet, you can use that information instead of performing your own power dissipation tests. But where's the fun it that? And someone might accuse you of practicing engineering if you go that route.

Now that you have found a 15 V zener, and it is capable of dissipating one watt of electrical power. What next? Calculate the value for the current-limiting resistor you connect is series between the zener diode and your DC power supply. That value will be the found by subtracting the zener voltage from the power supply voltage and dividing the difference by the zener current. Your posted circuit claims a DC power supply voltage of 19.4 V. This will vary with the mains supply voltage, the amount of current drawn, and perhaps the phase of the moon. Treat this number as a starting figure to get you into the ballpark. Subtracting 15 V gets you 4.4 V across the current-limiting resistor. Dividing that by 0.03 A gets you a value of about 147 ohms, which will dissipate (4.4)(0.03) = 0.132 W. A 1/4 watt resistor would be "safe" to use there.

Life gets more interesting when you add a load connected in parallel with the zener diode. Assuming the power supply voltage doesn't change with this load, and the zener voltage is also constant, then the current through the current-limiting resistor remains constant no matter what the load is! What does change is the current through the zener diode. It decreases as the load current increases, because the sum of the zener current plus the load current is equal to the current through the current-limiting resistor... and that current is constant if the power supply voltage doesn't change.

Now why would you get a much larger voltage out of your "battery charger" when you used the big, black, diode instead of zener diode? The simple explanation is you have inserted an ordinary rectifier in a reverse-biased direction and it is NOT conducting. The entire power supply voltage, nominally 19.4 V, is applied to the base of the TIP122 and approximately 1.4 V less than that appears on the emitter of the TIP122. The unloaded output soars to about 18 V. To test this theory, just remove the big black diode but leave the resistor connected between the base and the power supply.

Finally, why is this circuit so horrible? Even with a 15 V zener it is still horrible. Lead-acid cells should be charged with a variable constant-current power supply while monitoring the battery terminal voltage and reducing the charging current to a trickle current as the open-circuit battery terminal voltage approaches the full-charge voltage. A constant-voltage power supply, which is what this circuit attempts to provide, does not do this. There is NO current-limiting resistance between the battery and the power supply. The battery charging current will be determined by whatever the effective series resistance happens to be, a complicated function of transformer selection, rectifier bridge selection, "smoothing" capacitor selection, wire gauge and connecting length... but not the phase of the moon. You are lucky you are not using a larger transformer in your bread board setup. BTW, I haven't seen an actual bread board setup using real wooden boards since the 1950s. Congratulations on keeping this tradition going, even if you did cheat by screwing a proto-board to the bread board.:D

Wow ---thankyou Hevans 1944---!
Really appreciate all the trouble you have gone to ---to teach me important facts about Zeners-----
I am learning this complex field stubbornly --not all of us are gifted geniuses
I love circuits --been building them 4 - circa 25 yrs ---albeit direct from schematics

Theory I have studied ---many books by Stan Gibilisco -& various authors
I am NOT stupid --I DO understand transistors ----use them constantly NPN & PNP
made A tester --using the Aussie Dick Smith * Radio shack books ----
learnt a lot --main radio receivers & AUDIO op amps --built HUNDREDS--
USING schematics / TDA 2006 /2003 IC ,S ---

Unfortunately --I avoid too much mind numbing theory on semiconductors -
Zener forward /reverse bias has me still running for shelter --
ALL the DIODES pile I have removed from old circuit boards ----
every type imagineable ----
GIVE me TWO readings !! Forward 12 v ---reverse 3 -6 volts --
that's EVERY SINGLE DIODE has some lesser reverse voltage !--That's VERY confusing
as yesterday I was taught ONLY ZENERS have REVERSE BIAS ( NOT SURE WHY THE VERB "BIAS " is so carelessly used ----makes no sense --!

ITS THE LANGUAGE ./JARGON of electronics that create havoc /confusion -
so I stick to solid schematics --simple is best --place components on my " HOME MADE
pine bread planks ---( copper wire bonded to the wood to create a strong lookalike
printed circuit ---
works well for me ---eliminates importing fancy etched copper circuits --( have been slammed humiliated on other electronic forums for my PRIMITIVE DIY bush wshop approach ----no probs ---simply find another forum --with nicer more understanding /patient
experts ---who go to great lengths to unravel electronic mysteries---

LOVE diy MAKE it all in the bush --using whatever I can find --
millions of components are removed from a mountain of circuit boards--from scrapyards
that throw thousands of cheapo Chinese nightmare TV s away ---( my treasure is someone else .s trash ===

As I am still at bottom of learning curve --trying to really grasp theory at my age-
is time consuming slow --but rewarding ---getting there --many mistakes --but that's the way to learn ----nuff said ===

Ihave now found modules that are mini rectifier bridges encased in acrylic --
have scrapped that TIP /Zener mess I made ---
charge lead acid small motorcycle batteries with this rectifier module --solders onto
transformer ourv 15 v ac leads ----
problem ---only gives 11 .9 volts max ---
no idea how to find amperage it has ---(only need 1 amp trickle charge )

But --as some on this forum are getting annoyed with my persistent questions
I will withdraw again --before someone loses it and begins throwing cheap shots from the comfort of their PC <s ---
BEST regards ----
zendiode ( NOT a crime surely --to keep asking questions ? how else to learn this craft ?)
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
The word "bias" is not used loosely.

See here for more information: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biasing

In the case of diodes (a device which nominally only allows current to flow in one direction) the normal bias voltage (which allows current to pass) is called a forward bias. When a bias voltage is applied in the reverse direction it is quite naturally called a reverse bias.

Most diodes are operated with a forward bias. Zener diodes are operated with a reverse bias.

However, I am concerned with your readings from the diodes you have.

The forward voltage (the lower of the voltages you measure) should be less than 1V. Also, it is exceedingly doubtful that all the diodes you showed would have a reverse voltage of 12V.

I suspect you're doing something wrong.

I think you said you were using something other than the 2 nine volt batteries I recommended. However I'm more concerned that you are reading 4.5V or so in the forward direction.

Until you are able to test them correctly, you can't assume anything about them.
 
Many Thanks Steve ---
will keep trying to figure out reverse & forward bias --!everyone of a hundred diodes I have removed painfully from old PC boards -----
tested using a SINGLE 12 VOLT m/cycle lead acid battery --brand new ---
10 k ohm in series with the Zener "lookalikes'
All seem to give same reading --12 volt one way ---
3 .5 or 4 .7 or 5 .4 volts --the other way ---
(which way is forward or reverse on a diode ---has me still stumped)--

so I ordered the correct Zener from a catalog ---shows orange glass diodes ---not too clear
my original question was only asking how to VISUALLY IDENTIFY 12 volt one AMP ZENER -- but instead I am again --overwhelmed with mind shattering theory -----not what I asked for
I only wanter PHOTOS of Zeners ! that's all ---
but I used a horrible"" circuit --- Audioguru spotted the hopeless schematic --so I gave up

What I now am trying desperately to find out ---
( see fotos )
CAN I USE THE BRIDGE RECTIFIER UNIT IN THE FOTOS --
TO CREATE A BATTERY CHARGER CIRCUIT -----?
see those readings ---11.9 volt --without capacitor
18 volts with capacitor across output --

so can this be a basis for a another less complex /charger circuit -??

appreciate any diagrams or schematics I can use to build another circuit
I have MANY transistors BC 547 ETC --- TIP 41 C --42 TIP 127 ETC
many NPN & PNP transistors ---mountains of capacitors /resistors
& now very weird diodes --some even marked with voltages way too low --
ie 6 .8 volt --9 volt --even a 12 volt Zener --but amperage is for experts to determine -

Otherwise I will have to search online (bad internet here in Zululand )
( APPRECIATE a diagram of somekind --or maybe the modules in foto are no good?
regards-- zendode
 

Attachments

  • BRIDGE RECTIFIER MODULE -WITH CAP &MINUS CAP READINGS 001.JPG
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  • BRIDGE RECTIFIER MODULE -WITH CAP &MINUS CAP READINGS 002.JPG
    BRIDGE RECTIFIER MODULE -WITH CAP &MINUS CAP READINGS 002.JPG
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Steve --here are macro fotos I took --
of how I have interpreted your method of testing Zeners---
probably not too good --
1Used 12 VOLT m/cycle battery
connected 2 zeners I assume are the real Mc Coy ---

One is marked 12 ( volts?---the other 6 )

used a 22 k resistor --in series with each diode --

then reversed each diode ---see the two different readings--
I have no idea what is FORWARD or REVERSE bias here --
but here are fotos of how I tested each diode ---see what you think --hope its clear enough --to see the readings ----
 

Attachments

  • 2 X ZENER DIODES -MARKED 12 & 6 VOLT-READ BOTH WAYS -STEVE ,S METHOD 001.JPG
    2 X ZENER DIODES -MARKED 12 & 6 VOLT-READ BOTH WAYS -STEVE ,S METHOD 001.JPG
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  • ZENER DIODE -MARKED 6 -READ- BOTH WAYS -STEVE ,S METHOD 005.JPG
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hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
Steve will probably have something to say about this. Short answer: you are doing this all wrong.

The resistor is placed in series with the diode (as you show in your photos), but then the free end of the resistor and the free end of the diode MUST BOTH be connected to the battery terminals. Polarity doesn't matter because your multimeter will sort things. Once this is series connection to the battery is made, use your multimeter probes to measure the voltage drop across the diode.

There are six measurement possibilities, depending on whether you have an ordinary diode, or whether you have a zener diode whose zener voltage is less than the battery voltage you are using for testing, or a zener diode whose zener voltage is more that the battery voltage you are using for testing. For each of these three situations, the diode can be connected in either the forward or the reverse direction. The diode orientation that produces the lowest voltage (approximately 0.7 V) is the forward-bias direction. The diode anode will be the lead connected closest to the positive battery terminal when the diode is forward biased.

To perform the test, connect the diode in the circuit and measure the voltage drop across the diode. Reverse the diode and measure the voltage drop again. The results of these two voltage measurements mean the following:

If the voltage is very low in one diode orientation, and equal to the zener voltage when the diode is reversed, this identifies the diode as a zener diode.

If the voltage is very low in one diode orientation and equal to the battery voltage when the diode is reversed, this identifies the diode as a regular small-signal or power rectifier diode or possibly a zener diode whose zener voltage is greater than your battery test voltage. Mark it as "unknown" for further investigation.

If the voltage is very low in one diode orientation and approximately the same voltage is measured when the diode is reversed, this identifies a defective diode that is probably internally shorted. Smash it with a hammer to avoid trying to use it.

If the voltage is approximately the same as the battery voltage, no matter what the diode orientation is, this identifies a defective diode that is probably open. Smash it with a hammer to avoid trying to use it.

It is advisable to make a test jig that will allow you to quickly insert a diode for test, and to remove and reverse the diode in the test jig. A pair of alligator clips, sticking straight up into the air, spaced about an inch or so apart, and affixed with hot-melt glue (or other suitable adhesive) to an insulating support will greatly aid in quickly testing an assortment of diodes.

What I now am trying desperately to find out ---
( see fotos )
CAN I USE THE BRIDGE RECTIFIER UNIT IN THE FOTOS --
TO CREATE A BATTERY CHARGER CIRCUIT -----?
see those readings ---11.9 volt --without capacitor
18 volts with capacitor across output --

so can this be a basis for a another less complex /charger circuit -??
Yes it can, but you will need some means to monitor and control the charging current. I can't offer you any engineering advice on this, but as a hobbiest I have done it many times using the circuit you describe.

The modules you show in the two photos, with and without the capacitor connected, are working correctly. The module is a full-wave bridge rectifier that produces full-wave rectified DC from the sinusoidal AC applied by the transformer. This waveform is not accurately measured by your multimeter because it varies from zero to the peak voltage of the AC at twice the mains frequency. Your multimeter measures the average value of this voltage waveform, which average is always less than the peak voltage. Adding the capacitor to the output "smooths" the rectified DC by allowing the capacitor to quickly charge up to the peak voltage and then more slowly (depending on load current) discharge between peaks of the AC line voltage.

One simple method you can try is to use a low-valued rheostat in series with a DC ammeter (capable of measuring the charging current) inserted between the power supply output and the battery. You connect the circuit to a battery in need of charging (measure the battery terminal voltage before connecting it to your charger to see if it needs charging) and set the initial charging current with the rheostat.

Periodically (depending on battery capacity, that can be every ten minutes to every hour or so) disconnect the battery and let it rest for ten minutes to allow the internal chemistry to stabilize before checking the open-circuit battery terminal voltage.

If the battery case is hot, or gas is being vented from the cells, do not continue to charge it. Check often for gas venting, which occurs if the battery is over-charged or if the battery has one or more defective cells. The gas that is vented is hydrogen and it is very explosive in concentrations upward of 4%. Lead-acid batteries should always be charged in a vented environment, typically outdoors in a brick building equipped with exhaust fans. Well, Ma Bell, the telephone company, did it this way for a hundred years or so without any problems. Your mileage (or kilometers) may differ.

Measure the now-disconnected battery terminal voltage and if it is 12 V or more, the battery can be considered to be charged. If less than 12 V, reconnect to the charger, possibly adjust the current to a lower value if nearly fully charged, and repeat. It is possible to "trickle charge" a fully-charged battery by charging at a very low current, but I don't recommend trying to do that because it is easy to overcharge the battery with consequences described above. Disconnect the battery after it is fully charged.

For a definitive assessment of the charge state, measure the specific gravity of each cell with an accurate hydrometer and correct for electrolyte temperature. No one I know (except maybe lead-acid battery re-builders) does this, but it is a definitive test. NEVER add acid to a lead-acid battery that has previously been in service. Always add distilled water to keep the acid electrolyte level above the battery plates.

Good luck with keeping your motorcycle battery charged.

LOVE diy MAKE it all in the bush --using whatever I can find --
millions of components are removed from a mountain of circuit boards--from scrapyards
that throw thousands of cheapo Chinese nightmare TV s away ---( my treasure is someone else .s trash ===
Gee, I envy you your access to those fine treasures.

I got started in electronics in the 1950s by raiding the trash containers (Dumpsters) behind radio and TV repair shops... lots of perfectly good tubes, and sometimes entire chassis, were thrown away. It was the practice back then to replace a tube to see if it fixed the problem. Every corner drug store had a tube tester (guaranteed to sell tubes) and a goodly supply of the most frequently purchased types for the DIYer. If you took your set to a repair shop their troubleshooting procedure was the same as the DIYer: substitute a new tube and see if that fixed the problem. If not, the new tube was still sold to the customer because it was now a "used" tube, by definition, and could not be sold as "new" to another customer, even if removed and replaced in its original box. After all, who knows what damage might have happened to that tube when it was inserted in a malfunctioning radio or television set? So into the dumpster, box and all, it went. If after replacing all the tubes the set still didn't work, the customer was charged for the time spent "troubleshooting" their set and offered a new set for sale at a "discounted" price. Ha, ha, sucka! You probably also need to buy this fine antenna and maybe a small tower and rotator we sell too, all of which we can install for a small fee. <sigh> Those days are long gone, but it was "fun" while it lasted. I only worked the radio and TV repair business for a short time, during the evening after attending high school classes. Didn't see any future in it by then, so I enlisted in the Air Force and learned what real electronics (as compared to consumer electronics) was all about. Haven't looked back since, but I miss taking apart "stuff" to get parts to learn about electronics. May have to return to that just to afford new toys, now that I am retired.

You can imagine what effect finding all that stuff had on a per-pubescent kid trying to learn electronics on his fifty cents per week lunch allowance. I thought I had discovered a gold mine and carefully guarded my "secret" stash. I needn't have worried. I eventually found exactly one nerd friend who was interested in learning electronics, so I revealed my "secret" to him. Nothing came of it, and we eventually moved out of the area.

Hop - AC8NS
 
A battery charger must provide the correct voltage and the correct current. The horrible circuit did not provide the correct voltage.
A bridge rectifier does not limit the current so the battery might boil all its electrolyte away then its plates might get warped. The 15V from the transformer is not regulated and might be 13V or 17V.
I found your motorcycle battery and it is spec'd to be charged at 14.8V with a maximum current of 2.7A. they say to use a SMART charger (not a piece of junk from a 3rd world country).
 

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(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Here's 1000 words in the form of a picture:

Diode Test.png

  1. With no diode connected, the meter will read the battery voltage.
  2. With the diode connected one way around, the meter will read under 1V
  3. With the diode the other way around, IF the diode has a breakdown voltage less than the battery voltage, the voltage measured will be the breakdown voltage.
I recommend you use 18V (2x9V batteries) if you're looking for a 12V zener (it will have a 12V breakdown voltage).

If the reading (3) is no different to the reading (1) then it is NOT the zener (breakdown) voltage.

I use exactly this method with a battery voltage of up to 1000V to test the breakdown voltage of various devices. Obviously care needs to be taken when the battery voltage is high -- for one thing you keep you fingers well away from things!
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
A battery charger must provide the correct voltage and the correct current. The horrible circuit did not provide the correct voltage.
A bridge rectifier does not limit the current so the battery might boil all its electrolyte away then its plates might get warped. The 15V from the transformer is not regulated and might be 13V or 17V.
I found your motorcycle battery and it is spec'd to be charged at 14.8V with a maximum current of 2.7A. they say to use a SMART charger (not a piece of junk from a 3rd world country).
Amen to using a SMART charger. And a big thank you for identifying the battery. But this is a DIYer trying to cobble together something for his own amusement and edification. I believe you do learn something by "letting the smoke out" of a few things. First, you learn that can be an expensive lesson unless you obtain your parts for free from discarded junk electronics. Second, you are motivated to find out WHY the smoke came out and to LEARN enough to prevent it from happening again. Or move on to another project. Old dogs can and do learn new tricks. The problem, always, is motivating them to do so at a pace comfortable for the old dog.:D
 
Thankyou so much hevans ------
wow !---simply a man I can really admire --straight from the school of "if at first --failure -try again &again & again

I am a wildlife painter /taxidermist /bowhunter /guitarist /musician /guitar builder /wood turner -
(born 1949 )
Simply crazy about electronics my whole life ----
but never had the intellectual; capacity /courage --to seriously take up a career in TV repair etc--
still fascinated with those once mysterious components / circuitboards look like New York City from above

Always wondered how everything worked ---but hunting in Central Africa --distracted my passion --
Trained as a Taxidermist in Denver Colorado --way back in 70 ,S GOT A REAL eye opener ! on how the rest of the industrialised world functions !! scary ---ran back to the bush--coward
USA --- was way too advanced for the dodos like me -----
living in the backwoods has its setbacks ---- but DIY is wonderful --do it yourself ===learn by stupid mistakes --
great way to learn --- My brother got 2 PH d /s in math----not for me ---university of the forests /mother nature is ok !

Still got a long way to go ---building a 12 volt --240 INVERTER CIRCUIT --( Severely necessary due to power outages here)

But --if someone can show me a basic circuit -using those rectifier modems --as the start of a battery charger circuit -WONDERFUL SCHEMATIC from STEVE ! NOW I CAN SEE HOW TO TEST THE ZENERS !!
Seeing a SCHEMATIC is night & day ! -----
a picture is the key ----I got it IMMEDIATELY --

PLEASE can I have a similar DIAGRAM ---to build 12 ( 13 .6 VOLT ) SMALL BATTERY ( ONE AMP )
CHARGER??
got a dozen of those sealed acrylic rectifier units ---all have IDENTICAL readings !! 11 .9 volt
and with 100 MF capactor ------18 volts ---!
so ---WHAT ELSE DO I REQUIRE to complete the circuit ?

I have TIP 31 /32 ----41 /42 --& TIP 122 /127 power transistors ( this time I wont confuse the collecter /emitter
base pins !!! sincere apologies ---
Very grateful to all on this forum ----for your patience & great help ---Zulus are lining up with knackered aChinese
radios /CD players TV ,s etc ---
but I say ---SORRY -----still learning my friends ----INTEGRATED circuits are only for experts /varsity boys
--bad eyesight ---but huge enthusiasm ---will get me through

Best regards ---your summer is almost here --!
Winter is a big relief here --the heat has been intolerable --40 degrees --98 % humidity
see ya - Zendode
 
I think I am not going to get a schematic or circuit here --using that rectifier bridge
modem ----- and all its controlling components --to give a reliable 13 .6 volt -one amp charging output-

Have searched the web exhaustively--- for such a circuit --must be wishful thinking--but will keep
trying----found some very bizarre chargers --way too many components / ic > etc --

nothing is easy ---
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
Still got a long way to go ---building a 12 volt --240 INVERTER CIRCUIT --( Severely necessary due to power outages here)
Power inverters are complicated and can be dangerous for amateurs to construct. Everything about the circuit depends on how you specify its operation. Simply saying "I want to convert 12 V DC to 240 V AC" is NOT enough to define and select a circuit that will do that. Have you looked at the links on this Google page result?
You should start there and then come back here with a better explanation of what you want to DO. Then, perhaps, someone here will provide guidance on HOW to do it.

There are folks here that would be more than happy to direct you to inverter projects. I would like to help you, but since retiring to Florida USA in December I have discovered that Florida has very stringent laws concerning the practice of engineering without first obtaining a Professional Engineer (PE) license. It was suggested to me that I do this in Ohio when I finally graduated with a BEE (Bachelor of Electrical Engineering) in 1978 after ten years of part-time study. I didn't think I would ever need to do that, so I didn't. Now, forty years later, I am regretting that decision. I asked the Florida Board of Professional Engineers for an opinion on my participation in this forum. Here is a copy of the response I received:

Simply making a statement-written or verbal-regarding an engineering subject does not constitute the practice of engineering unless the context clearly results in the conclusion that the maker intended and a reader would accept the statement as an engineering opinion that would fall within the definition of engineering as found in Section 471.005(7) and which is restricted to licensed PEs. A statement of “pure” opinion-an opinion that is not directed to a particular person and/or is not based upon unarticulated facts-cannot be limited only to licensees.
I interpret that to mean that I cannot legally offer you a specific solution to your specific problem because that would constitute practicing engineering without a license. It is difficult for me, since I am not an attorney, to distinguish opinion from any statement I make on this forum. Everything you read here is either my opinion or the opinion of someone else.

If I were to post specific advice, such as "Use this schematic to build your project," and you accepted that as my engineering opinion (and recommendation), then I believe that would, under Florida law, be considered practicing engineering without a license. OTOH, if I simply offer up a schematic or a link and ask, "Have you tried this?" Then, in my opinion, that becomes a discussion dialog and does not constitute the practice of engineering. If you follow up and come back to this forum with questions I or other forum members can answer, then it is YOU who may be practicing engineering, but our responses are "take it or leave it" and would not fall within the definition of engineering.

Well, that's MY interpretation of the law, but I haven't sought the opinion of anyone who posts Esq. after their name. Questions of law are determined and resolved in court and I do not ever want to get a subpoena demanding that I appear in court to defend against an accusation of practicing engineering in Florida without a license.

It's been awhile, but I think I remember most of what I learned in school while practicing engineering in Ohio since 1978, and before that, while practicing engineering as a technician since 1967. With a little study, I think I can pass the Florida PE exam and obtain my Florida PE license. Until that happens, please forgive me for being a little circumspect in my responses here.

Please note that this is a hobby forum. We exchange ideas here and help each other out, but everyone is expected to practice due diligence and research their particular problem. After that, ask away and see if anyone can help. I am glad Steve posted that schematic showing how to test diodes since apparently my written description was not enough. I don't often take the trouble to do "pretty print" schematics, but will post images of hand-drawn diagrams from time to time.

I hope your visits here have produced helpful results.

Hop - AC8NS
 
I found a battery charger circuit on the internet that has good voltage and current regulation. It had horrible errors that I corrected:
 

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hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
The circuit suggested by @Audioguru is essentially the same as Figure 21 in section 8.3.10 of this Texas Instruments datasheet, except scaled for operation at a higher output voltage. This particular datasheet has a lot of application circuit schematics, but like most such schematics, it is assumed the reader knows what they are doing and has read and understood the datasheet. The application schematics provide a starting point for design, and component values will be adjusted by the reader for their particular needs, as @Audioguru has done for you. In particular, you should pay attention to, and understand how, the transistor provides current limiting.
 
I found a battery charger circuit on the internet that has good voltage and current regulation. It had horrible errors that I corrected:

You are a superstar --Audioguru ---a magician !
so very grateful ----appreciate

( I Successfully -------sorted out that TIP circuit horror)
last night --all night --replaced the 122 with TIP 41 C
NPN specs data say its close to 122-
took a chance --trial &error ---
connected the pins as per your instructions ---collector base --emitter
added a 12 volt Zener ( lookalike ) guess --

AND voila ---13 .4 volts out the emitter ----!
maybe just luck --but it charged a small 12 volt (flat battery)
all night ---low amps out -aprox 0.9 amp ---
good enuf 4 trickle charge !
Am delighted ----
Now all the residents here come to me --for their ALARM systems
12 volt back up battery during regular power outs --
Burglaries here are off the charts ---huge problem --aggravated robbery /breakins !

So when one of your members --remarked
I AM A DIY fanatic --just do this TO AMUSE MYSELF ???
That predjudiced statement is based on pure ignorance --

(necessity is the mother etc ----nothing amusing about alarm failure due to flat
12 v back up to alarms I built myself ===from scrap --years ago !
( A visit to this crime ridden country --would change that pompous condescending predjudice
had everything stolen I possess ---hence my determination to create alarms --off the grid

Many thanks ---
will try to tackle that charger circuit ---
appreciate your amazing help /research --Audioguru is the man !!

( Ask the cynical fella ----WHICH COUNTRY imported--- negro slaves from Africa ?to work for nothing-- in them cotton fields /sugar plantations?)
before he has another go at 3rd world countries ---we have to survive here!
regards Zendode
The ti
 
A huge thankyou to Hevans ---you are a true soldier!
Your superb advice will be truly appreciated --
apologies for my primitive approach /backwoods ideas --

but the house breaking burglaries prompted me to make a whole lot of battery chargers for my DIY--alarms I have installed in a dozen properties --
those batteries are small --for a reason --easily hidden -when thieves take advantage of power outages which happen every week -----And clean us out with impunity ---( now you have Afro Americans in your country --same problem ??--no bigotry intended ----but Zulu thieves are very skilled at house breaking --easy income ---50 yrs of theft - IN Zambia -& I say ---to hell with Mr Nice GUY!!

there are many reason why I persist in obtaining a crash course in electronics
necessity is OVERWHELMING ----I try to help a battered community --to foil burglaries

schematics are easy to work from --thanks for the rough drawing offer --am delighted
-theory takes a while to absorb --but a sketch paints a million words CLEARLY !
regards zendode
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
So when one of your members --remarked
I AM A DIY fanatic --just do this TO AMUSE MYSELF ???
That predjudiced statement is based on pure ignorance --


( Ask the cynical fella ----WHICH COUNTRY imported--- negro slaves from Africa ?to work for nothing-- in them cotton fields /sugar plantations?)
before he has another go at 3rd world countries ---we have to survive here!

I didn't see either of these comments.

With the exception of @Audioguru and @hevans1944 (both of whom you have thanked for their contribution), and one other very short post, I'm the only other contributor to this thread that I could see. And I'm sure I didn't make either of those comments.
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
I didn't see either of these comments.

With the exception of @Audioguru and @hevans1944 (both of whom you have thanked for their contribution), and one other very short post, I'm the only other contributor to this thread that I could see. And I'm sure I didn't make either of those comments.
He may have been referring to a comment I made in post #30:

... this is a DIYer trying to cobble together something for his own amusement and edification.
Which was a comment on a previous post by @Audioguru:

... they say to use a SMART charger (not a piece of junk from a 3rd world country).
I don't think either of us intended to "bash" @Zendiode or denigrate Third World Countries, but perhaps @ZENDODE was neither amused nor edified (the ostensible purpose of forums such as this one) by some comments read, and possibly misinterpreted, here.

So, unless this thread is going to morph into a discussion of DIY power inverters (which really should be a new thread), I recommend this thread be closed to further comment.
 
( I Successfully -------sorted out that TIP circuit horror)
last night --all night --replaced the 122 with TIP 41 C
NPN specs data say its close to 122-
took a chance --trial &error ---
connected the pins as per your instructions ---collector base --emitter
added a 12 volt Zener ( lookalike ) guess --

AND voila ---13 .4 volts out the emitter ----!
How on earth can the horrible TIP122 circuit produce an output voltage higher than the 12V zener diode even when it uses an ordinary high input current TIP41 transistor instead of the very low input current TIP122??
Oh, when the "12V" zener diode actually has a much higher voltage or is connected backwards.

WHICH COUNTRY imported--- negro slaves from Africa ?to work for nothing-- in them cotton fields /sugar plantations?)
before he has another go at 3rd world countries ---we have to survive here!
regards Zendode
The ti
Sorry, I think the horrible TIP122 circuit is from a magazine and a few more in India, not Africa.
 
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