How much does speaker polarity matter?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I did notice the other month, in a large London terminus railway
station, that the pa system over hundreds? of speakers is much clearer
than it used to be. I wonder what they've done - multiple staggered
delays? so there is one coherent movement of sound along the major axis
of the station?

The snag with this is you can improve any delay effects at one point in
the station - but it will actually make it worse elsewhere. It can be
useful for sound reinforcement from a stage etc where you want to mix the
acoustic and speaker feeds - but beware if recording such an event the
effects might be heard in the recording.

I think the improvements in stations are due to more and better DP
speakers and from a much higher quality audio chain than used to be the
norm. I've often thought the old adage that you don't need decent quality
for mere speech rubbish.

 

[Ron(UK)]

I did notice the other month, in a large London terminus railway station,
that the pa system over hundreds? of speakers is much clearer than it used
to be.
I wonder what they've done - multiple staggered delays? so there is one
coherent movement of sound along the major axis of the station?

Delays only work where the 'audience' is relatively static. The whole
problem with highly reflective areas such as railway stations is the
multitude of reflections from all the hard surfaces bouncing every
which way. The secret is to use far more speakers at much lower volume
which is what we are seeing in railway stations these days. The TOA mini
line arrays seem to be very popular atm.


Ron(UK)

 

[Arfa Daily]

I've had similar experience but in a modern digital studio. One trick I've
used is to soft gate the bass guitar track attack on the bass drum to
tighten up the rhythm. Being both a drummer and bass player I understand
just how closely knit the two need to be. I love to here a band where
those two really click.

So, since we're talking drums and how to get the proper sound from them, and
as you are from the other side of the pond to me, can you explain why
drummers on a live gig seem to get shoved inside a glass cell ? I have seen
it on a number of occasions in Vegas, and a few minutes ago, I was watching
a Rod Stewart concert in New York on VH1, and again, the drummer and his
kit, were in this glass gas chamber looking thingy. Now the last time I
actually stopped to take notice of one such setup in Vegas, I gotta tell you
that the drums sounded awful. It was like the guy was playing - well -
behind glass, really ... Muted, no punch, no zing on the metals, no tap or
rattle on the snares. Cow bell sounded like it was on one that had fallen
down a ravine ! You get the picture, I'm sure. So, even if those drums were
mic'd up and fed to the PA, they still lacked that 'live' sound that no
matter how good a recording engineer is, and how good your hifi is, is
practically impossible to reproduce. Is it a health and safety thing perhaps
? Are drums considered to be dangerous compared to other instruments,
because there is a lot of physical thrashing going on, with the potential to
break sticks ?

Arfa

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

So, since we're talking drums and how to get the proper sound from them,
and as you are from the other side of the pond to me, can you explain
why drummers on a live gig seem to get shoved inside a glass cell ? I
have seen it on a number of occasions in Vegas, and a few minutes ago,
I was watching a Rod Stewart concert in New York on VH1, and again, the
drummer and his kit, were in this glass gas chamber looking thingy.

It's an attempt to screen off the drum kit acoustically from other stage
mics.

 

[Arfa Daily]

It's an attempt to screen off the drum kit acoustically from other stage
mics.

But to what effect, exactly ? Surely if the sound engineer knows what he's
doing, such dubious techniques are not required. I can't say that I've ever
seen it done here in the UK. And if the sound engineer was any kind of
professional - and I can't believe that in a place like Vegas where the
production is everything, that he / she would be anything *other* than a
proper professional - then surely, when he stepped out into the main body of
the hall, he would have to be thinking that the sound from the drum kit was
bloody awful, and sounded nothing like percussion should.

I mean, I am no recording engineer, but I've seen enough bands playing live,
and listened to enough recorded music, to know that what I heard, didn't
sound even remotely 'right' ...

Arfa

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

But to what effect, exactly ? Surely if the sound engineer knows what
he's doing, such dubious techniques are not required.

That's not the point. A loud instrument can spill onto the mics for quiet
ones to the point where they drown out the sound from that quiet
instrument. A favourite example would be strings. In this sort of band
you'll often see the violins with mics mounted on the bridge in an attempt
to get the maximum 'clean' signal from them - regardless of it being a
dreadful place to mic up strings. Same with saxophones, etc.

I can't say that I've ever seen it done here in the UK.

It's commonplace.

And if the sound engineer was any kind of professional - and I can't
believe that in a place like Vegas where the production is everything,
that he / she would be anything *other* than a proper professional -
then surely, when he stepped out into the main body of the hall, he
would have to be thinking that the sound from the drum kit was bloody
awful, and sounded nothing like percussion should.

Difficult to comment on this individual case, but if that enclosed drum
kit was properly mic'd up and balanced it should sound ok in the hall.

I mean, I am no recording engineer, but I've seen enough bands playing
live, and listened to enough recorded music, to know that what I heard,
didn't sound even remotely 'right' ...

Right.

The other problem is that the sound engineer doesn't always have the final
say in the layout of the band. Some sort of set designer often has. And
may go for a 'look' that isn't sound friendly. Happens all the time in TV.

 

[Ron(UK)]

But to what effect, exactly ? Surely if the sound engineer knows what he's
doing, such dubious techniques are not required.

It`s to keep the sound of the drums out of all the other mikes on stage.
A heavy handed drummer on a loud kit can appear on every mike channel on
the desk, particularly where mikes are set at high gains such as strings
and vocals. Separation is the key to great live sound.

The screens are made from perspex (plexiglass in leftpondia) which has a
high sonic density. A sheet of perspex stood in front of a guitar combo
has a marked effect on it`s apparent loudness, sadly most guitarists
regard such ploys as evil and not to be encouraged!

I can't say that I've ever

seen it done here in the UK.

Me neither

And if the sound engineer was any kind of

professional - and I can't believe that in a place like Vegas where the
production is everything, that he / she would be anything *other* than a
proper professional - then surely, when he stepped out into the main body of
the hall, he would have to be thinking that the sound from the drum kit was
bloody awful, and sounded nothing like percussion should.

Once you remove the room ambience from a drumkit, it`s not easy to put
it back. From what I`ve heard of US shows, the drums are generally
processed to hell. Phil Collins has a lot to answer for

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

The screens are made from perspex (plexiglass in leftpondia) which has a
high sonic density. A sheet of perspex stood in front of a guitar combo
has a marked effect on it`s apparent loudness, sadly most guitarists
regard such ploys as evil and not to be encouraged!

I can't say that I've ever

Me neither

Been used with 'in shot' TV orks for over 30 years.

 

[Ron(UK)]

Been used with 'in shot' TV orks for over 30 years.

Oh I thought we were talking about live concerts,

Ron(UK)

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Oh I thought we were talking about live concerts,

They are similar in many ways.

And yes - I've seem them in use at live concerts - which happened to be
televised too.

 

[Meat Plow]

It's an attempt to screen off the drum kit acoustically from other stage
mics.

Yup. Also gives the sound people ultimate control as to how the drums
appear in everyone's monitor and lessens feedback by isolating several
mics from the stage mix. Isolation also helps for those who use those
in-ear monitors where you can't just step back from your floor monitor
if someone is too loud.

 

[Arfa Daily]

Yup. Also gives the sound people ultimate control as to how the drums
appear in everyone's monitor and lessens feedback by isolating several
mics from the stage mix. Isolation also helps for those who use those
in-ear monitors where you can't just step back from your floor monitor
if someone is too loud.

Well, I guess that I gotta bow to the superior knowledge of all you guys who
are into this sort of thing for a living. I just don't rememeber seeing it
at live concerts featuring such worthies as The Beatles, and the Stones and
Roxy Music and Dire Straits and The Who and so on. All of whom had loud drum
kits, but didn't seem to suffer from live sound balance problems. I think
that there is maybe a touch of 'fad-ism' involved here, and it's just
becoming the norm, because it's becoming the norm, if you see what I mean.

Anyway, if it solves one problem, it certainly leaves other new ones, not
the least of which is crap live sound in each of the instances where I've
seen it done (in America). Apart from which, it also *looks* bloody stupid,
and must leave the drummer feeling like he doesn't belong to the rest of the
band ...

Oh, and the last one that I saw it done on, during the last visit, was a
simple 4-piece plus girl singer. No strings or brass or anything fancy.

Arfa

 

[Ron(UK)]

Well, I guess that I gotta bow to the superior knowledge of all you guys who
are into this sort of thing for a living. I just don't rememeber seeing it
at live concerts featuring such worthies as The Beatles, and the Stones and
Roxy Music and Dire Straits and The Who and so on. All of whom had loud drum
kits, but didn't seem to suffer from live sound balance problems. I think
that there is maybe a touch of 'fad-ism' involved here, and it's just
becoming the norm, because it's becoming the norm, if you see what I mean.

When I saw the Stones they had 30 watt guitar combos and a 50 watt bass
amp, and the PA was a glorious 50 watts. I could hear the vocals just
fine, of course in those days drummers were taught how to play quietly
yet dynamically!

One thing has just struck me, maybe the bands you saw were using drum
screens because... horror of horrors the drummers you were hearing
were not the drummers you were seeing? It happens a lot on big live
shows, either the music (or part of it) is on playback and they are
miming, or the real orchestra/band are elsewhere in the building.

I remember reading a write up on a show (I think Celine Dion, but I
could be mistaken), where the real band were backstage while the all
girl band on stage happily mimed along. It`s not easy to mime playing
drums without hitting them.

Ron

 

[Arfa Daily]

When I saw the Stones they had 30 watt guitar combos and a 50 watt bass
amp, and the PA was a glorious 50 watts. I could hear the vocals just
fine, of course in those days drummers were taught how to play quietly yet
dynamically!

One thing has just struck me, maybe the bands you saw were using drum
screens because... horror of horrors the drummers you were hearing were
not the drummers you were seeing? It happens a lot on big live shows,
either the music (or part of it) is on playback and they are miming, or
the real orchestra/band are elsewhere in the building.

I remember reading a write up on a show (I think Celine Dion, but I could
be mistaken), where the real band were backstage while the all girl band
on stage happily mimed along. It`s not easy to mime playing drums without
hitting them.

Ron

I would have to say, Ron, that I don't believe that the drum playing was
'staged' as such. Unless the drummer was exceptionally skilled at mime, then
from what I could see, which was only just in front of them, I would have to
say that he was genuinely beating the living shit out of those skins ...

I have seen just about all of the shows in Vegas, including Celine Dion at
Caesars, now ended, and they really are massive productions. Whilst it is
common for the orchestra to be out of the way, particularly in the case of
Cirque du Soleil productions, which many of them are, the musicians are
genuinely playing, and I have never seen any pretence of it being otherwise.
In a couple of the shows, the orchestra are in 'columns' at either side of
the stage and, whilst they are not on 'open' display, they are also not
hidden, and are their enclosures are subtly internally lit such that you can
see them playing if you care to look, without them being intrusive to the
main stage action. In Celine's case, the musical director or writer or
whatever he was, who was also the keyboard player, was out front of the main
stage, but not *on* the stage, and was gently lit, along with his multiple
keyboards, so he was a feature, without being a 'feature', if you see what I
mean.

So there doesn't in general seem to be any issue over there with 'fake'
musicians in the big productions, so I don't see any reason that it should
be particularly different in the 'open club' type environments that I saw
the bands in question, playing in.

Is there really honestly a problem with the 'one at the back, three at the
front' format that all bands have adopted since the 50's, with the drums
creating such an issue, that they have to be screened, and then PA'd ? If
this is the case, would it not be better to stick the singer over one side
of the stage with their sensitive full-range mic, and put the drum kit at
the opposite side ? Worst case, you could just stick an acoustic blocking
screen to the side of the drummer, instead of putting him in a ridiculous
looking plastic jail ...

Arfa

 

[Meat Plow]

When I saw the Stones they had 30 watt guitar combos and a 50 watt bass
amp, and the PA was a glorious 50 watts. I could hear the vocals just
fine, of course in those days drummers were taught how to play quietly
yet dynamically!

One thing has just struck me, maybe the bands you saw were using drum
screens because... horror of horrors the drummers you were hearing
were not the drummers you were seeing? It happens a lot on big live
shows, either the music (or part of it) is on playback and they are
miming, or the real orchestra/band are elsewhere in the building.

I remember reading a write up on a show (I think Celine Dion, but I
could be mistaken), where the real band were backstage while the all
girl band on stage happily mimed along. It`s not easy to mime playing
drums without hitting them.

Ron

That's also a good point. Never thought about drum syncing. I see it all
the time in movies though. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. Sound
effects and Foley artists. Things like watching a Honda 4cyl bike take off
and hearing the sound of a V twin engine. Watching a car spin its tires in
dirt and hearing squealing sounds of tires on pavement. I once saw a movie
where a guy on a Harley jumped over something and the bike changed in mid
air to a dirt bike then back to a Harley when it landed

 

[Meat Plow]

Well, I guess that I gotta bow to the superior knowledge of all you guys who
are into this sort of thing for a living. I just don't rememeber seeing it
at live concerts featuring such worthies as The Beatles, and the Stones and
Roxy Music and Dire Straits and The Who and so on. All of whom had loud drum
kits, but didn't seem to suffer from live sound balance problems. I think
that there is maybe a touch of 'fad-ism' involved here, and it's just
becoming the norm, because it's becoming the norm, if you see what I mean.

Anyway, if it solves one problem, it certainly leaves other new ones, not
the least of which is crap live sound in each of the instances where I've
seen it done (in America). Apart from which, it also *looks* bloody stupid,
and must leave the drummer feeling like he doesn't belong to the rest of the
band ...

Oh, and the last one that I saw it done on, during the last visit, was a
simple 4-piece plus girl singer. No strings or brass or anything fancy.

I contribute it to the evolution of technology and not being satisfied to
leave the old school way of doing sound as it was. I like the in-ear
monitors myself. Anyone who has played as I have on a large stage will
appreciate not having to get used to the slight delay there is from when
you pluck a string and when you hear that attack from your amp if
your amp is far enough away. And it doesn't have to be very far either. 15
or so feet is enough.

 

[Ron(UK)]

Is there really honestly a problem with the 'one at the back, three at the
front' format that all bands have adopted since the 50's, with the drums
creating such an issue, that they have to be screened, and then PA'd ? If
this is the case, would it not be better to stick the singer over one side
of the stage with their sensitive full-range mic, and put the drum kit at
the opposite side ? Worst case, you could just stick an acoustic blocking
screen to the side of the drummer, instead of putting him in a ridiculous
looking plastic jail ...

Sadly one of the legacies of the 60`s is exactly that drums in the
middle and back line either side set up that was the norm back then.

I often work with young bands, and it`s almost impossible to convince
them that these days that`s not the best way to set up. After all, the
Shadows did it that way, why shouldn`t they? Often, the onstage sound
isn`t what I want the audience to be hearing

I try to get them to at least angle their amps across the stage so that
they can all hear each others amp, even better if they would put their
amps at the front facing backwards as their own personal monitors - I
don't need to hear their speakers, neither do I want the a narrow
section of the audience to be blistered by the narrow 'beam' from a
guitar speaker that`s too damn loud ,(call me a control freak, but
that`s what I`m paid for)

Don't get me wrong, I dont like the look of those plexiglass booths
either, and I`ve never had to work on a show where one has been used.
Maybe you're right and they are a leftpondian fad, you dont see em on
'Jules' do you?

Anyway, I would have thought that the musicians on a Vegas show should
be sufficiently experienced and professional enough to be able to
control their playing style, maybe it`s just the production team playing
safe

I would have to say, Ron, that I don't believe that the drum playing
was 'staged' as such. Unless the drummer was exceptionally skilled

at > mime, then from what I could see, which was only just in front of

them,I would have to say that he was genuinely beating the living

shit > out of those skins ...

Yeah he might have been, (maybe that`s why the acoustic screen was
there) but you've no guarantee that what he was playing was what you
were hearing, He`s not miming, he`s playing along to a pre-recorded
track, almost all show drummers these days play along to at least a
'click track' Often Bass drum, snare and hi hat are on a playback track
which is what the rest of the band are hearing.

Or.. that show might just have had a really crap sound engineer - there
are a lot more bad ones than good ones you know

Worst case, you could just stick an acoustic blocking
screen to the side of the drummer, instead of putting him in a
ridiculous looking plastic jail ...

Careful now, you don't want to spark off a torrent of drummer jokes!

or do you?



Ron(UK)

 

[Ron(UK)]

Meat Plow wrote:
I once saw a movie

where a guy on a Harley jumped over something and the bike changed in mid
air to a dirt bike then back to a Harley when it landed

Damn that`s clever... must be one of the Chinese built Harleys

 

[Ron(UK)]

I like the in-ear
monitors myself. Anyone who has played as I have on a large stage will
appreciate not having to get used to the slight delay there is from when
you pluck a string and when you hear that attack from your amp if
your amp is far enough away. And it doesn't have to be very far either. 15
or so feet is enough.

A lot of Bass guitar players can`t use in-ears for that very reason,
they are used to the slight delay and can`t cope with the instant
response in the ears. Some even go to the trouble of having a slight
delay reintroduced so that it all syncs up properly.

Ron(UK)

 

[Arfa Daily]

A lot of Bass guitar players can`t use in-ears for that very reason, they
are used to the slight delay and can`t cope with the instant response in
the ears. Some even go to the trouble of having a slight delay
reintroduced so that it all syncs up properly.

Ron(UK)

Boy oh boy ! Whatever happened to the good ol' days when I used to go and
watch bands like Uriah Heep playing in Johnny Walker's local just up the
road from me ? Makes you wonder how a heavy rock band like that was able to
set up in a pub concert hall, and just play, without all of this nonsense of
having to mic up the drums and then put the drummer in a plastic tub. Damn,
the musicians and roadies must have been good back then ...

Arfa