How much does speaker polarity matter?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Hi!

To everyone who has replied so far, thank you for your information.

I would have normally used a nine volt battery to check the polarity,
but I couldn't find one anywhere in the various messes I have.

A single cell - ie 1.5 volts - is quite sufficient to test a speaker

I think I'll go ahead and correct the speaker polarity so that it at
least matches what the radio manufacturer and speaker manufacturers
say it "should" be. This will not be difficult. There are only two
speakers in the car (at this time...I may add two more later the car's
design permits it) However, I do see the point that one poster made
about which way the speaker cone will "fire" when a large signal comes
its way. It would seem logical that the speaker cone can extend much
further outward than it can inward (toward the speaker basket).

Not so - since a speaker may have to reproduce a sine wave it has to move
equal amounts back and forth. If it doesn't it will distort the sound.

 

[Arfa Daily]

You presume that the recording-reproduction chain is polarity accurate.
IME it's a
lottery.

Graham

Which was one of the points I made, too ...

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

Do you want fixed "image" stereo or musicians "wandering around in space"?

How do you figure that absolute phase can have any such effect ?

Arfa

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

One might think that, but flipping the polarity on a kik drum mike has
little if any effect on the sound through the PA. Sometimes I mike a
bass drum from both sides, using a 'bassdrum' mike on the front head and
a normal instrument mike on the batter head. Reversing the polarity of
the batter head mike does make a difference in this instance.

It's normal in any multi-mic situation to go round all the mics at check
time with one on a long cable etc and check the phase of them all.

(For those not clear on how to do this you place them close together and
talk. The sound mixer then fades then both up to the same level and
reverses the phase of one. You will get a large drop in level etc when
they're out of phase.)

Of course most good make mics, cables and mixers will be in phase with
themselves - but it's sometimes not the case with all makes of mics and of
course you have to allow for careless repairs.

Deliberately reversing the phase on one mic or group of mics is sometimes
used for operational reasons.

Other one to look out for is ribbon mics. Turning them round reverses the
phase and it may be convenient for mic placement to use the back rather
than the front.

 

[Meat Plow]

You presume that the recording-reproduction chain is polarity accurate. IME it's a
lottery.

Graham

Of no concern to me.

 

[clifto]

If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much when
it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.

Because the music from the speaker expects the bass drum to be considerably
louder than the actual bass drum was when recorded.

 

[Jamie]

Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William

All that it matters is what they are all wired the same why in your car.
But if you want to make sure you are wired as the others, follow the code/
It does make a difference.
for example, You don't want one speaker pulling in while the other is
pushing out on the same tone, this will cause it to cancel and will be
noticed in the bass regions mostly.

If you're not sure of the polarity, I have always turned on the
system and played something with some bass in it. the correct polarity
will yield the max bass..



--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

"Daily Thought:

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT
THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

All that it matters is what they are all wired the same why in your car.
But if you want to make sure you are wired as the others, follow the
code/
It does make a difference.
for example, You don't want one speaker pulling in while the other is
pushing out on the same tone, this will cause it to cancel and will be
noticed in the bass regions mostly.

If you're not sure of the polarity, I have always turned on the system
and played something with some bass in it. the correct polarity will yield
the max bass..



--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

"Daily Thought:

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT
THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

I agree with the notion that absolute phase is irrelevant, but one thing to
consider is that if there are other speakers or the speakers in question are
part of a system with a crossover, then you are not just talking about
absolute phase. You could have a situation where the two speakers are out
of phase with others...

Leonard

 

[jakdedert]

Because the music from the speaker expects the bass drum to be considerably
louder than the actual bass drum was when recorded.

Stick your head in a bass drum sometime and tell me if it's loud or not.
Okay, you meant relative to the other instruments, but even then,
spend some time in a rock band rehearsal room and tell me again about
loud....

jak

 

[Ron(UK)]

Stick your head in a bass drum sometime and tell me if it's loud or not.
Okay, you meant relative to the other instruments, but even then, spend
some time in a rock band rehearsal room and tell me again about loud....

Absolutely, a drumkit should be thought of as one instrument, rather
than a collection of drums. A decent kit has all the parts nicely
balanced with each other.
For a lot of big band work, we often mike up a normal drumkit with just
two overhead mikes - just one if there`s no need for stereo. The bass
drum comes through just fine[1] Of course, it ALL depends on the talent
of the man playing the drums.

[1] I am of course referring to live sound reinforcement.


Ron(UK)

 

[GregS]

Ron(UK) wrote:

Actually, it does move quite a bit; but the operative dimension is not
the excursion, but the size of the head vs. the size of the speaker. To
move as much air as a 20-someodd inch bass drum head--moving x
distance--the 6 to 18 inch woofer cone has to move correspondingly
farther. I'm sure there's a mathematical relationship there that I
don't have the chops to calculate....

It gets a lot more complicated since a ported enclosure minimizes the woofer
movement. The port will be the dominate output device if the bass is near
the tuned frequency. The phase will vary around all this anyway so absolute phase
is a guess.

greg

 

[GregS]

I agree with the notion that absolute phase is irrelevant, but one thing to
consider is that if there are other speakers or the speakers in question are
part of a system with a crossover, then you are not just talking about
absolute phase. You could have a situation where the two speakers are out
of phase with others...

Yes, when talking about individual drivers within a system, you have different situations.
Phase between upper and lower drivers will change response and polar patterns.

greg

 

[boardjunkie]

One might think that, but flipping the polarity on a kik drum mike has
little if any effect on the sound through the PA. Sometimes I mike a
bass drum from both sides, using a 'bassdrum' mike on the front head and
a normal instrument mike on the batter head. Reversing the polarity of
the batter head mike does make a difference in this instance.
Ron(UK)

Of course it matters in that case. Mic'ing from the other side of the
drum will effectively produce a reverse polarity signal from the mic.

 

[Meat Plow]

Stick your head in a bass drum sometime and tell me if it's loud or not.
Okay, you meant relative to the other instruments, but even then, spend
some time in a rock band rehearsal room and tell me again about loud....

Absolutely, a drumkit should be thought of as one instrument, rather
than a collection of drums. A decent kit has all the parts nicely
balanced with each other.
For a lot of big band work, we often mike up a normal drumkit with just
two overhead mikes - just one if there`s no need for stereo. The bass
drum comes through just fine[1] Of course, it ALL depends on the talent
of the man playing the drums.

[1] I am of course referring to live sound reinforcement.

Not miking the bass drum wouldn't have cut it in any band I've been in.
Minimally we used 3, one overhead, one more near the snare and hi-hats,
and one on the bass.

 

[Ron(UK)]

clifto wrote:
Ron(UK) wrote:
If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much
when it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.
Because the music from the speaker expects the bass drum to be
considerably
louder than the actual bass drum was when recorded.

Stick your head in a bass drum sometime and tell me if it's loud or not.
Okay, you meant relative to the other instruments, but even then, spend
some time in a rock band rehearsal room and tell me again about loud....

Absolutely, a drumkit should be thought of as one instrument, rather
than a collection of drums. A decent kit has all the parts nicely
balanced with each other.
For a lot of big band work, we often mike up a normal drumkit with just
two overhead mikes - just one if there`s no need for stereo. The bass
drum comes through just fine[1] Of course, it ALL depends on the talent
of the man playing the drums.

[1] I am of course referring to live sound reinforcement.

Not miking the bass drum wouldn't have cut it in any band I've been in.
Minimally we used 3, one overhead, one more near the snare and hi-hats,
and one on the bass.

That`s the classic jazz set up

 

[Ron(UK)]

Of course it matters in that case. Mic'ing from the other side of the
drum will effectively produce a reverse polarity signal from the mic.

Yes, it drives a hole through the sound making the bass drum both tubby
and clicky, which is sometimes what you want. Theoretically, one mike
either side of a head, with one mike reversed polarity, puts them both
in phase with the sound from the head. We sometimes do the same with
snare, one above, one below

Ron(UK)

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

[email protected] hath wroth:

Hi!

Right now, it's "high". I accidentally double dosed on the meds 2
nights ago and still feel rather "high" this morning. Wheeeee....

I must have it right then. Both speakers are wired exactly the same
way. I was careful to be sure of that and even used different colored
wire. The "+" lead is red while the "-" is black. Stereo separation is
excellent, and sounds that do move "across" from one speaker to the
other do sound "real". In fact, it's quite surprising how good the
sound really is. The speakers are small, so they don't have a whole
lot of bass, but otherwise the sound is good, if a bit centered on the
midrange.

Sounds right. I have a pair of microphones plugged into a dual
channel scope (Tek 422) which I used for checking the phase on speaker
systems. A tone to all speakers and a Lissajous pattern works well. I
found one 5.1 systems that arrives stock frome the factory with the
phasing all wrong. Sigh.

Yep. Dallas clock blobs (!!!) are also interesting. I have been
reworking them...maybe I mentioned that.

I have 4ea Dallas blobs for you. Maybe more. I'll get everything
packaged up and mailed next week. My appologies for the delay.
(Excuse: The boxes got stored by the hired help in the back of the
closet and were instantly forgotten).

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

Not miking the bass drum wouldn't have cut it in any band I've been in.
Minimally we used 3, one overhead, one more near the snare and hi-hats,
and one on the bass.

Yep, and for a good reason. The drum set covers a wide frequency
range. Bass drum is mostly at the low end of the audio spectrum,
while all the brass is near the high end. The problem is that the
lower frequency stuff is almost isotropic (radiates equally in all
directions), while the high frequency stuff is fairly directional. For
example, the snake and hat tend to radiate more up and downward than
toward the audience. The result is that the drums sound different
depending on where you stand or sit. I've been told the drums sound
totally different to the drummer and audience.

My experience is with mixing post production mixing back in the late
1960's. If any group dragged in a tape with only one track for the
drums, they would be asked to re-record with 3 mics. I can clean up
the usual mess (pedal clank, stick click, etc) with noise gates and
such, but it's so much easier if the individual instruments were
recorded with a close mic (so as not to pickup sounds from other
instruments). It's a real art doing that correctly with a drum set
and really messy with an orchestra. You've only to compare a raw,
single mic/stereo recording in a concert hall, with the same concert
properly mixed in a studio.

<http://homerecording.about.com/od/mixinglivesound/a/mixing_live.htm>
<http://homerecording.about.com/od/recordingtutorials/ht/perfectkick.htm>
<http://www.drum-tracks.com/NEWdrumEQ.htm>

 

[msg]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

You've only to compare a raw,
single mic/stereo recording in a concert hall, with the same concert
properly mixed in a studio.

How did we get to preferring artificial sound construction over the
amalgamated blend of sound heard in a hall? I prefer the direct-to-
wax from the pickup horn of jazz recordings in the 1920's over anything
mixed in the studio since 1955. The big band recordings in studios
done since the 1960s sound nothing like the dance hall experience
of the 1940s (or even bands on film for that matter) in part due to
the preferences of engineers at consoles. The only legitimate
in studio music in my opinion is disco/euro-disco, techno and
synth which is an art of the mixer in large part (I'll pretend
hip hop doesn't exit).

Regards,

Michael

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

That`s the classic jazz set up

Classic set up for any drum kit. The fad for using upwards of 8 mics on a
kit is very often counter-productive.