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How are *official* schematics presented?

J

Jan Panteltje

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:52:34 GMT,


Have you tried the native Unix app, "units"? It converts everything into
everything, even doing some basic arithmetics if necessary.
Gas mileage example (my 1995 Golf):

~$ units
2438 units, 71 prefixes, 32 nonlinear units

You have: 6.7 l/100km
You want: mpg
reciprocal conversion
* 35.106654
/ 0.028484628
You have:

robert

Very nice, did not know that, there are thousands of apps in Linux / Unix,
I learn a new one every day :)
Unfortunately it could not understand my celcius to F conversion request
'help units' scrolls slow in 'more', no I prefer that GUI program.
 
J

Joerg

Robert said:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:42:50 -0800,



You should stay with vector graphics all the way for PDF. You can export
your schematic as PS and convert that to PDF.

Although Eagle seems to have truly weird PS output. I just tried it --
exported an A4 schematic as 300dpi PNG -> 80K. The same schematic as
PS came out closer to 1MB.

That's pretty much the ratio I have experienced, about 10:1.

I'll have to investigate that because it doesn't make any sense at all.

Eagle doesn't have too many export options. bmp, png, pbm, pgm, ppm,
tif, xbm and xpm. Oh well, but TIFF works fine. My clients can read
that, it produces nice and crisp large plots for lab work and the file
size is small.
 
Q

qrk

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:42:50 -0800,


You should stay with vector graphics all the way for PDF. You can export
your schematic as PS and convert that to PDF.

Although Eagle seems to have truly weird PS output. I just tried it --
exported an A4 schematic as 300dpi PNG -> 80K. The same schematic as
PS came out closer to 1MB.

I'll have to investigate that because it doesn't make any sense at all.

robert

Yikes, that's not right! Sounds like it's storing an uncompressed bit
map. I use Orcad SDT's (yep, the old DOS program) PS plotter driver
and then convert to PDF via Ghostscript. You may want to experiment
with one of the add-on PDF printer drivers that use GhostScript. I'm
using PDFcreator <http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/> for my
Windoze machines, but many other packages out there work just as well.
I've avoided OpenOffice as it doesn't deal with vector graphics on my
EMF formatted graphs properly for some reason.

The truly amazing format is JBIG2 or JPEG2000 Lossy compression. I
can't see any difference between a lossless bit map schematic and
JPEG2k Lossy formats. JPEG2k Lossy makes ratty scans look better most
of the time.
 
J

Joerg

Jan said:
Very nice, did not know that, there are thousands of apps in Linux / Unix,
I learn a new one every day :)
Unfortunately it could not understand my celcius to F conversion request
'help units' scrolls slow in 'more', no I prefer that GUI program.


I use my HP11C for that. Runs on three coin cells for a decade, easily.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Joerg said:
Might also be partly due to language barriers. I wish they'd agree on
one language for technical stuff.


If it is up to a standards committee, we would end up with "Pig
Latin" :(


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
J

jasen

Very nice, did not know that, there are thousands of apps in Linux / Unix,
I learn a new one every day :)
Unfortunately it could not understand my celcius to F conversion request
'help units' scrolls slow in 'more',

yeah, it only works with units that are ratios or reciprocal ratios.

Bye.
Jasen
 
J

jasen

It's probably one of the few SI units that does NOT get used in
practice (to my knowledge). To answer your first question, it's a
Newton per square meter. I've seen it used in some school textbooks,
but not elsewhere.

it's too small to be much use (it's about 1mm of water in a u-tube manometer)
Uh, those are pretty commonly used in high vacuum work. 760 Torr is 1
atm.

yup, A torr is 1 mm of mercury (assuming a standard gravity)

Blood pressure is measured in the same unit, (or a unit of the same
magnitudde atleast).
And meterologists seem to like millibars, at least in the U.S. A bar
is within 1 or 2% of 1 atm.

a bar also happens to be exactly 100000Pa, Meteorologiists over here
have shifted to "hectopascals" which are merely millibarrs by another name.


Bye.
Jasen
 
R

Robert Latest

qrk said:
Yikes, that's not right! Sounds like it's storing an uncompressed bit
map.

No, it produces even pretty legible PS, true vector graphics. But why
so huge -- I don't know. Maybe it's because of all the vector font
text.

robert
 
J

joseph2k

John said:
We use P for male connector, which is the mil/aerospace convention. We
also use M for mechanical part, which is not.

There is a great deal of convention and lore about how one constructs
top and subassembly drawings; now flags, notes, and find numbers are
shown; dimensioning and tolerances; product structure; assembly and
wiring; parts lists (BOMs); fabrication and test procedures and ECOs;
drawing numbers, resulting part numbers, and dash number variants;
part procurement specs. It's quite uniform in most industries, so an
engineer from one company can look at a product top assembly drawing
set from another company, for a complex item, and understand the
entire drawing tree structure. And build one and have it come out the
same.

We've sent a CD to a big contract assembler and had them procure
parts, build complex gadgets, and test them, without hassle and with
hardly any questions.

The A380 wire harness fiasco, gigabucks of blunder, was partly caused
by incompatible drawing conventions across several countries.

John

And incompatable versions of the same CAD tool (Catia) between different
functional units. See comp.risks for more.
 
J

joseph2k

Robert said:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:42:50 -0800,


You should stay with vector graphics all the way for PDF. You can export
your schematic as PS and convert that to PDF.

Although Eagle seems to have truly weird PS output. I just tried it --
exported an A4 schematic as 300dpi PNG -> 80K. The same schematic as
PS came out closer to 1MB.

I'll have to investigate that because it doesn't make any sense at all.

robert

Not really, PNG is much smaller for line art than either ps or pdf, let
alone typical tiff. If you want to "shrink" the file size of line art try
gif; all the patents are expired now.
 
J

Joerg

joseph2k said:
Robert Latest wrote:




Not really, PNG is much smaller for line art than either ps or pdf, let
alone typical tiff. If you want to "shrink" the file size of line art try
gif; all the patents are expired now.

Indeed. Tried it with the project I finished yesterday. It's sent to the
client already so too late this time but when I stored it in PNG the
schematic shrank from about 1MB for 84K. Is PNG widespread and commonly
readable? I can read it but that doesn't have to mean anyone can.

WRT the original topic I now must confess that I am beginning to warm up
to the idea of writing 33K2 like many Europeans do instead of 33.2K, or
33R2 instead of just 33.2. When tired at the end of the day it's easy to
overlook one of those decimal points. I gave the schematic one more
thorough visual and thought I'd bunged it with one resistor, until I saw
that little dot and knew it was ok.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Indeed. Tried it with the project I finished yesterday. It's sent to the
client already so too late this time but when I stored it in PNG the
schematic shrank from about 1MB for 84K. Is PNG widespread and commonly
readable? I can read it but that doesn't have to mean anyone can.

WRT the original topic I now must confess that I am beginning to warm up
to the idea of writing 33K2 like many Europeans do instead of 33.2K, or
33R2 instead of just 33.2. When tired at the end of the day it's easy to
overlook one of those decimal points. I gave the schematic one more
thorough visual and thought I'd bunged it with one resistor, until I saw
that little dot and knew it was ok.

Methinks you delude yourself on the file size ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
J

Jim Thompson

On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 02:51:22 GMT, Joerg
[snip]
Indeed. Tried it with the project I finished yesterday. It's sent to the
client already so too late this time but when I stored it in PNG the
schematic shrank from about 1MB for 84K. Is PNG widespread and commonly
readable? I can read it but that doesn't have to mean anyone can.

WRT the original topic I now must confess that I am beginning to warm up
to the idea of writing 33K2 like many Europeans do instead of 33.2K, or
33R2 instead of just 33.2. When tired at the end of the day it's easy to
overlook one of those decimal points. I gave the schematic one more
thorough visual and thought I'd bunged it with one resistor, until I saw
that little dot and knew it was ok.

Methinks you delude yourself on the file size ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Just tried a simple A-size...

PDF = 42KB

PNG = 102KB

For the _same_resolution_ the only thing that comes close in file size
is TIFF, and it generally looks like crap.

...Jim Thompson
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 02:51:22 GMT, Joerg
[snip]
Indeed. Tried it with the project I finished yesterday. It's sent to the
client already so too late this time but when I stored it in PNG the
schematic shrank from about 1MB for 84K. Is PNG widespread and commonly
readable? I can read it but that doesn't have to mean anyone can.

WRT the original topic I now must confess that I am beginning to warm up
to the idea of writing 33K2 like many Europeans do instead of 33.2K, or
33R2 instead of just 33.2. When tired at the end of the day it's easy to
overlook one of those decimal points. I gave the schematic one more
thorough visual and thought I'd bunged it with one resistor, until I saw
that little dot and knew it was ok.

Methinks you delude yourself on the file size ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Just tried a simple A-size...

PDF = 42KB

PNG = 102KB

For the _same_resolution_ the only thing that comes close in file size
is TIFF, and it generally looks like crap.

...Jim Thompson

Did you try GIF? (lossless compression)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
J

Jim Thompson

On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 02:51:22 GMT, Joerg
[snip]

Indeed. Tried it with the project I finished yesterday. It's sent to the
client already so too late this time but when I stored it in PNG the
schematic shrank from about 1MB for 84K. Is PNG widespread and commonly
readable? I can read it but that doesn't have to mean anyone can.

WRT the original topic I now must confess that I am beginning to warm up
to the idea of writing 33K2 like many Europeans do instead of 33.2K, or
33R2 instead of just 33.2. When tired at the end of the day it's easy to
overlook one of those decimal points. I gave the schematic one more
thorough visual and thought I'd bunged it with one resistor, until I saw
that little dot and knew it was ok.

Methinks you delude yourself on the file size ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Just tried a simple A-size...

PDF = 42KB

PNG = 102KB

For the _same_resolution_ the only thing that comes close in file size
is TIFF, and it generally looks like crap.

...Jim Thompson

Did you try GIF? (lossless compression)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

GIF (UDC) = 19KB
PDF (Adobe v4) = 9KB

The PDF looks significantly sharper.

...Jim Thompson
 
J

Jim Thompson

Joerg said:
[...]when I stored it in PNG
the schematic shrank from about 1MB for 84K.
Is PNG widespread and commonly readable?
I can read it but that doesn't have to mean anyone can.

The Borg has been the reason for the slow adoption of PNG.
http://www.google.com/search?q=in.internet.explorer.7+png+microsoft
(IrfanView , the freeware graphics app, has supported it for many
years.)

I have used PNG in the past when I was dumb enough to think PowerPoint
was the way to make a presentation. (PNG's insert and size easily in
PPT's).

However I discovered that I can make hierarchical descendible
schematics with Adobe v4, which is a MUCH nicer way to go.

I've always found PNG's to be larger than PDF's, but maybe it's the
capabilities of MicroSim Schematics that make that so.

...Jim Thompson
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

joseph2k said:
PNG is much smaller for line art than either ps or pdf,
let alone typical tiff.
Joerg said:
[...]when I stored it in PNG
the schematic shrank from about 1MB for 84K.
Is PNG widespread and commonly readable?
I can read it but that doesn't have to mean anyone can.

The Borg has been the reason for the slow adoption of PNG.
http://www.google.com/search?q=in.internet.explorer.7+png+microsoft
(IrfanView , the freeware graphics app, has supported it for many
years.)

I have used PNG in the past when I was dumb enough to think PowerPoint
was the way to make a presentation. (PNG's insert and size easily in
PPT's).

However I discovered that I can make hierarchical descendible
schematics with Adobe v4, which is a MUCH nicer way to go.

Is that what you use when you have to give a live presentation?
I've always found PNG's to be larger than PDF's, but maybe it's the
capabilities of MicroSim Schematics that make that so.

...Jim Thompson


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
D

DJ Delorie

Jim Thompson said:
The PDF looks significantly sharper.

And herein lies the key.

A PDF, properly generated from schematics, is a LINE DRAWING. Well,
and other shapes too, including text. The contents of the file are
the endpoint coordinates and the line style (or other *description* of
the elements, not a *photo* of the elements), so the line looks like a
nice clean line no matter the resolution of the device you're viewing
it with, or any magnification. Text has smooth anti-aliased edges
regardless of how you view it. Etc.

A PNG is a raster. You can make a PNG smaller than the PDF by simply
choosing a lower resolution, but then your line turns into a row of
squares at higher resolution or magnification, and printouts may have
that "stairstep" look.

So, *if* your software generates a PDF that truly is a line drawing,
and not a pdf-wrapped raster, you're better off keeping it that way so
it doesn't get pixelated. If, however, your software just wraps a
raster in a pdf (you can tell by zooming way in and seeing if the
lines remain lines, or become blocky), then you may be better off with
a PNG.

Now, considering that most schematics have primarily vertical and
horizontal lines, which PNG handles well, the benefits of PDF may not
be apparent. If you want to see what/if the differences are, choose a
test schematic that has many diagonal lines, curves, and text.
 
J

Jim Thompson

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