Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Home made heat sink pads

H

Hal Murray

After reading your posts in this thread, I conclude that toilet paper would
serve your purpose.

It might make a good spacer. I just measured 2.5 mils. It's reasonably
consistent over a few sheets.
 
R

Robert Baer

John said:
The value for mylar can't be right!

And this is nonsense:

"For many applications a base that was made only of copper would
probably be too effective at transferring heat. Heat applied to a
small region would be transferred so rapidly that it wouldn't have
time to diffuse across the pot's bottom. This would result in uneven
cooking and possibly even local areas of scorching. Capping the base
with stainless steel slows the immediate rate of heat transfer from
the burner or heating element, but once this heat enters the copper
core its high conductivity would spread the heat rapidly and evenly to
all parts of the base."






If it's not an insulator, using it has to hurt, no matter how high the
thermal conductivity. If it inhibits lateral heat spreading, as the
graphite will, it could make things a lot worse.






At low frequencies, yes. But 1 LPM of water flow has an effective
theta of about 0.014 K/W. You can run 1 LPM through some long, skinny
plastic tubes and have a tiny effective capacitance (and kilovolts of
isolation, if you keep the water clean.)





Machining is probably good enough. The baseplate of a power transistor
is, what, 50 mils thick maybe, so if you machine the heatsink to 50
uinch flatness, that's 1000:1.




Hard anodize is pretty good, up to a couple of hundred volts maybe. We
really need a mil of diamond. It's sad that nature is so stingy with
diamonds.

John
So get man-made ones...
 
R

Rich Grise

Most thermal insulators are good electrical insulators and vice versa. The
ceramics are an interesting example of the opposite but have highish K.

Fine mica has been used in blown loft insulation for example.

Oh, well, foo then! [ ;-) ] That's just vermiculite, and it's the
entrained air that does the insulating. We used to use vermiculite
to line our charcoal grill.

Thanks!
Rich
 
J

John Larkin

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:58:16 -0600,
It might make a good spacer. I just measured 2.5 mils. It's reasonably
consistent over a few sheets.


Post-Its seem to be consistantly 4 mils. Soaked in baby oil, they'd be
about as good as an 8-mil sil-pad.

John
 
D

default

I came across a pile of old toasters (well, about 5) last year, and
recycled them into good bits and junk. The mica sheets in there are
perfect for thermally-conductive, insulating material. Why even to buy
a new one at WalMart for $7 gives a lot of mica. With only 12 volts,
the mica can be very thin, and with a bit of practice with a razor
blade, it can be cleaved into very thin sheets.

Agreed

The mica can be shaved into very thin slices. Not that much of the
stuff going around these days though . . . Great for insulators not
available, like that DS501 you're dying to make a class A amp out of.

And toasters? I wouldn't trade my antique 1940 for anything. burns
the bread perfectly.
 
J

JoeBloe

After reading your posts in this thread, I conclude that toilet paper would
serve your purpose.

You forgot to mention USED media. One needs the cream impregnated
toilet paper.
 
J

JoeBloe

That's not *sand paper* though is it ?

I personally like 'Scotch Brite' style material for removing burrs and the like
btw.

Graham

It is made from finely powderized iron oxide set in an adhesive
vehicle, and applied to the paper or cloth backing. Usually cloth.

My first job decades ago was polishing stainless steel sheet and
huge plates for the food processing industry. A lot of your packaged
food products likely goes through my polished plates on it way from
the farm to your face.

Even a mirror polish, number 8 surface quality or better finish, has
a grain direction, and was likely achieved by way of stepped process
abrasive polishing.

This is in reference to solid metals. Depositions and plating take
on surface qualities that are based on the properties of the plating
media. There is a section in the CRC handbook on it.
 
J

JoeBloe

What's also important is to get it flat, as opposed to smooth.

Absolutely crucial.

The ideal is a machining process that yields as close to a fine
quality surface as possible, then a surface grind or even follow that
by a finishing with one or more steps of abrasive polishing.

The idea is to have any polishing be as minimal as possible so as
not to undulate the surface flatness notably.
Sanding
may make it shiny, but it's also liable to grind a curve into a
surface,

Homogenized (read across the whole surface) light "sanding" on a
surface removes media more evenly than you might initially think, if
done using the right methods.
and that will wreck the thermal contact and in the extreme
result in insulator damage.

Cupped or undulated surfaces indeed are not good heat sink
interfaces. I am quite sure, however, that John meant a more
regimented polishing technique.

In the extreme, two mirror finish surfaces that DO have good flatness
characteristics will be the absolute best thermal interface.
Extrusions tend to be too curvy/wavy for
really good thermal contact.

Most are extruded thick, stress relieved, faces get machined flat
(like a jointer in woods), then it gets stress relieved again, and
hard anodized likely after it gets cut to the customer specified
lengths. There are excellent extruded sinks made though.

I recently did a 1.5 kilowatt design with about a 20" inch long
2.5 inch wide by 5.5 inch tall sink was used for some 24 HUGE IGBTs.

They were ALL soldered in on exactly the same plane. All mechanical
clamping (no screws) and mounting of the sink and devices were done
before any solder joints were formed. I taught the girls how to
assemble these right to keep us from getting blow ups in the test lab
after assembly.

When one of these big tab devices runs away, it ain't pretty.

Letting the smoke out stinks too. :-]

For really good thermal performance,
extrusions should be machined flat, like with a slow pass with an end
mill or a fly cutter.

Any machining ops can be done if the primary interface was extruded
with a thick enough cross section (and it should have been). One must
just use coolants and watch cut rates.
Grease will fill surface roughness pretty well, but curvature can open
up a gap that will seriously increase theta.

Absolutely true. Ideal is two flat surfaces (sounds like a
consumer electronics store chain).
Minor things like surface
waviness can throw away a good fraction of a transistor's dissipation
capability. A reasonable goal is 100 micro-inches total roughness plus
flatness across the transistor footprint. You can buy BeO/AlO2/AlN
insulators that are smooth and flat to a few micro-inches.

Yes, and as we knoe <sic>, the device are good and flat, so if the
sink is off badly those insulators will fracture from the pressure
gradients on the high spots.
Power transistors themselves seem to be remarkably flat.

They got standards to keep. And face too! :-]

Hahahah... in more ways than one.
This sort of stuff starts to matter when you want to push transistors
up against their thermal limits, like in fast/RF stuff where you can't
just add more parts in parallel.

You Da Man!

I seem to remember a 50 Watt single device.

Actually, if one looks REAL close, that IS about 8 FETs in parallel
on one substrate element in one package. What was it? 50W at 10GHz.

Can't parallel up at high freq on a big breadboard. Too many
parasitics and such, eh?
 
J

JoeBloe

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:30:42 GMT, "Jon Slaughter"


Because the there is possible contact with the heat sink and the ground. It
doesn't matter though. I didn't ask for that and I don't have to explain
those details as they have nothing to do with my original question which you
seem not to have read.


Trying to show your mettle, eh?

(Let me re-phrase that)

Trying to show your metal, eh?

Trying to show your meddle, eh?!


Heheheh :-]


And I had such hopes.
 
J

JoeBloe

I came across a pile of old toasters (well, about 5) last year, and
recycled them into good bits and junk. The mica sheets in there are
perfect for thermally-conductive, insulating material. Why even to buy
a new one at WalMart for $7 gives a lot of mica. With only 12 volts,
the mica can be very thin, and with a bit of practice with a razor
blade, it can be cleaved into very thin sheets.


Excellent answer to the thread topic!
 
J

JoeBloe

The value for mylar can't be right!

And this is nonsense:

"For many applications a base that was made only of copper would
probably be too effective at transferring heat. Heat applied to a
small region would be transferred so rapidly that it wouldn't have
time to diffuse across the pot's bottom. This would result in uneven
cooking and possibly even local areas of scorching. Capping the base
with stainless steel slows the immediate rate of heat transfer from
the burner or heating element, but once this heat enters the copper
core its high conductivity would spread the heat rapidly and evenly to
all parts of the base."




If it's not an insulator, using it has to hurt, no matter how high the
thermal conductivity. If it inhibits lateral heat spreading, as the
graphite will, it could make things a lot worse.




At low frequencies, yes. But 1 LPM of water flow has an effective
theta of about 0.014 K/W. You can run 1 LPM through some long, skinny
plastic tubes and have a tiny effective capacitance (and kilovolts of
isolation, if you keep the water clean.)

We ran unpotted 50kV supplies in fluorinert. It is a dielectric
fluid with 1.5 kV per mil isolation capacity.

I have, however, seen said 50kV supply arc up out of the fluorinert
toward a pointed spike at ground potential that was brought in slowly
from 4 feet away. Gradients are cool.

I'm a high school gradient. :-]

I'm a college gradient too! :-]
Machining is probably good enough.

For the industry, yes. But for the physics here and the science.
Wonder is all we have till we do.

I like NASA Tech Briefs. Hehehehe ;-]
The baseplate of a power transistor
is, what, 50 mils thick maybe,

I've seen them at 100 mils, and more as well. They are typically
die cut from copper flat stock either before or after plating as well.
so if you machine the heatsink to 50
uinch flatness, that's 1000:1.

They don't do anything to them. They take on the flatness of the die
base they get punched in, and add the granularity of the plating.
It's a nice, fuzzy surface that gives one that warm, fuzzy feeling.
;-]
Hard anodize is pretty good, up to a couple of hundred volts maybe.

I have seen much better stats than that an mil spec for hard anodize
has a table of four levels IIRC. They correspond with anodization
depth, and carry other attribute changes as well, like higher
withstand voltage.
We
really need a mil of diamond. It's sad that nature is so stingy with
diamonds.

I like crystals. I have a laser disc from the smithsonian on gems
and minerals that is sooo cool! Likely out there on DVD by now,
though i never looked. That was over a decade ago.
 
J

JoeBloe

It might make a good spacer. I just measured 2.5 mils. It's reasonably
consistent over a few sheets.

Under the compression of attachment, I am sure it would come in a
bit thinner. Try tightening your micrometer a bit against it.
 
J

JoeBloe

Agreed

The mica can be shaved into very thin slices. Not that much of the
stuff going around these days though

It's expensive. It has to be mined from the earth.
 
John said:
John Larkin wrote:
[snip]


The value for mylar can't be right!

Indeed. It's highlighted in cyan, suggesting it's a place-filler
only. I'm afraid I didn't scrutinize the source, just glanced and saw
a complete-looking table of conductances.
And this is nonsense:

"For many applications a base that was made only of copper would
probably be too effective at transferring heat. Heat applied to a
small region would be transferred so rapidly that it wouldn't have
time to diffuse across the pot's bottom. This would result in uneven
cooking and possibly even local areas of scorching. Capping the base
with stainless steel slows the immediate rate of heat transfer from
the burner or heating element, but once this heat enters the copper
core its high conductivity would spread the heat rapidly and evenly to
all parts of the base."

Could be true for cookware using a thin layer of copper: vertical
transport would be quick, lateral transport poor.
If it's not an insulator, using it has to hurt, no matter how high the
thermal conductivity. If it inhibits lateral heat spreading, as the
graphite will, it could make things a lot worse.

Point taken.

At low frequencies, yes. But 1 LPM of water flow has an effective
theta of about 0.014 K/W. You can run 1 LPM through some long, skinny
plastic tubes and have a tiny effective capacitance (and kilovolts of
isolation, if you keep the water clean.)



Machining is probably good enough. The baseplate of a power transistor
is, what, 50 mils thick maybe, so if you machine the heatsink to 50
uinch flatness, that's 1000:1.

Machining the heatsink's finish to being a whole bunch better than
the semiconductor's package clearly doesn't do much--microscopically
the device will still rest mostly on the peaks of the rougher surface.
Ultra-finishing both, though, might produce more intimate
metal-to-metal contact.

Hard anodize is pretty good, up to a couple of hundred volts maybe. We
really need a mil of diamond.


Hard anodize is quite good I understand, but porous. About half
being open space, I wondered recently if a denser, non-porous coating
such as might be twice as thermally conductive. Hence the passing
interest in microplasmic coatings. But I'm just blowin' smoke
here--I've got no need for such presently.

It's sad that nature is so stingy with diamonds.

Darn right -- not only a _girl's_ best friend, I'd like a few for
just about everything--heat sinking, machining, optics...

Best,
James Arthur
 
J

jasen

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:58:16 -0600,



Post-Its seem to be consistantly 4 mils. Soaked in baby oil, they'd be
about as good as an 8-mil sil-pad.

I was about to suggest cigarette papers impregnated with paraffin wax.
 
C

cmp

You probably want the extra-virgin stuff from the first squeezing.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
B

Baron

jasen said:
I was about to suggest cigarette papers impregnated with paraffin
wax.

In the old days I used to anodise the aluminium to insulate TO3
devices. Could get close to 500volts breakdown, depending on how long
you cooked. A spot of ink would give you some colour as well.
 
Top