G
Guy Macon
Warren said:
Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
a degree.
Please See:
Fallacy Files: Begging the Question AKA Circular Argument AKA
Circulus in Probando AKA Petitio Principii AKA Vicious Circle
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html
Nixkor Project: Fallacy: Begging the Question
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html
Wikipedia: Begging the question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
Even if you assume that I do not meet the requirements to be
called an Engineer in Quebec, I have never worked in Quebec.
I reside and usually work in California, USA. In the state
of California there is NO requirement that an Electrical
Engineer have a degree or license. There are job titles
that do require such a license, and they are listed in the
Professional Engineers Act. They include "Professional
Engineer", "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer",
"PE", "P.E." "Professional Electrical Engineer", "Registered
Electrical Engineer", "Licensed Electrical Engineer" etc.
The term that employers usually specify is "PE" or "P.E."
Job titles that, according to the Professional Engineers
Act, require no license and have no educational requirements
include "Electrical Engineer", "Electronics Engineer",
"Electronic Engineer", etc. See Chapter 7 of Division 3 of
the Business and Professions (B&P) Code, sections 6700-6799.
and Sections 400-474.5 of Title 16, Chapter 5 of the California
Code of Regulations (CCR) for details.
Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer
The paragraph about the IT Industry using terms such as Certified
Novell Engineer and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in Quebec
is especially interesting. Those titles are allowed in California.
If I did work in Quebec I would, of course, follow Quebec law.
Unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec requires membership in the QIQ
(Order des Ingenieurs du Quebec) for all who use the Title
"Engineer."
Although most QIQ members are degreed, a degree is not required
to be a member of QIQ. "Applications from candidates who do not
hold a degree that is recognized by the Quebec government as one
that gives access to OIQ permits are subject to review by the
Committee of Examiners. The Committee can make the following
recommendations to the Bureau of the OIQ: For candidates in
category C [no degree that is recognized by the Quebec government]
the Committee can recommend that the Bureau recognize their training
as equivalent either immediately or after the candidates pass the
examinations.
Once the QIQ membership is obtained, the title "junior engineer"
may be used. To drop the "Junior", the requirement is to complete
36 months of engineering experience under the supervision of a
QIQ member engineer, with at least 12 of these months performed
in Canada (and good luck finding a job outside of Canada that is
supervised by a QIQ member engineer!)
Th question of whether EEs in California *should* be required
to have a degree or pass a test is another matter. Jack Ganssle
wrote this on [ Embedded.com ]:
"In the embedded world, no law dictates our use of titles or
our ability to practice our art. Some engineers, for example
those building structures, need licensure (Professional
Engineers). That's mostly outside of the electronics world,
despite the fact that we're now building systems every bit
as dangerous as a bridge or large building."
http://www.embedded.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=9900475
It's an interesting thought. I like the idea of a test. As for
a degree, there are many fine degreed engineers, but there are a
few who make you wonder who they bribed in order to graduate.
--
Gooogle foood: Guy Macon guymacon.com Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/>
Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> Guy Macon
www.guymacon.com Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> Guy Macon guymacon
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon
Warren said:
Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
a degree.
Please See:
Fallacy Files: Begging the Question AKA Circular Argument AKA
Circulus in Probando AKA Petitio Principii AKA Vicious Circle
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html
Nixkor Project: Fallacy: Begging the Question
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html
Wikipedia: Begging the question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
Even if you assume that I do not meet the requirements to be
called an Engineer in Quebec, I have never worked in Quebec.
I reside and usually work in California, USA. In the state
of California there is NO requirement that an Electrical
Engineer have a degree or license. There are job titles
that do require such a license, and they are listed in the
Professional Engineers Act. They include "Professional
Engineer", "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer",
"PE", "P.E." "Professional Electrical Engineer", "Registered
Electrical Engineer", "Licensed Electrical Engineer" etc.
The term that employers usually specify is "PE" or "P.E."
Job titles that, according to the Professional Engineers
Act, require no license and have no educational requirements
include "Electrical Engineer", "Electronics Engineer",
"Electronic Engineer", etc. See Chapter 7 of Division 3 of
the Business and Professions (B&P) Code, sections 6700-6799.
and Sections 400-474.5 of Title 16, Chapter 5 of the California
Code of Regulations (CCR) for details.
Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer
The paragraph about the IT Industry using terms such as Certified
Novell Engineer and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in Quebec
is especially interesting. Those titles are allowed in California.
If I did work in Quebec I would, of course, follow Quebec law.
Unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec requires membership in the QIQ
(Order des Ingenieurs du Quebec) for all who use the Title
"Engineer."
Although most QIQ members are degreed, a degree is not required
to be a member of QIQ. "Applications from candidates who do not
hold a degree that is recognized by the Quebec government as one
that gives access to OIQ permits are subject to review by the
Committee of Examiners. The Committee can make the following
recommendations to the Bureau of the OIQ: For candidates in
category C [no degree that is recognized by the Quebec government]
the Committee can recommend that the Bureau recognize their training
as equivalent either immediately or after the candidates pass the
examinations.
Once the QIQ membership is obtained, the title "junior engineer"
may be used. To drop the "Junior", the requirement is to complete
36 months of engineering experience under the supervision of a
QIQ member engineer, with at least 12 of these months performed
in Canada (and good luck finding a job outside of Canada that is
supervised by a QIQ member engineer!)
Th question of whether EEs in California *should* be required
to have a degree or pass a test is another matter. Jack Ganssle
wrote this on [ Embedded.com ]:
"In the embedded world, no law dictates our use of titles or
our ability to practice our art. Some engineers, for example
those building structures, need licensure (Professional
Engineers). That's mostly outside of the electronics world,
despite the fact that we're now building systems every bit
as dangerous as a bridge or large building."
http://www.embedded.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=9900475
It's an interesting thought. I like the idea of a test. As for
a degree, there are many fine degreed engineers, but there are a
few who make you wonder who they bribed in order to graduate.
