Fire Side Chat -- Fire Alarm Code Issue

[Robert L. Bass]

In the April 2005 issue of SSI, Al Colombo suggests using a relay to connect
110VAC smokes to a monitored alarm system. Al, a veteran poster to this
newsgroup suggests that every 110V smoke detector manufacturer provides a
relay which is listed for the purpose.

Unfortunately, this is not correct. To the best of my knowledge there are
currently no such relays which have been listed for use with fire alarm
control panels. There is at least one relay of which I am aware that was
designed to connect 110VAC smokes to external devices such as magnetic door
holders. However, the manufacturer of this unit states that the relay is
NOT to be used with a fire alarm control panel.

Al's monthly articles in SSI are always interesting and informative, but
this one probably needed further consideration before you went to press. It
is a code violation to connect non-listed devices to a FACP. It is also a
violation to connect listed devices in a manner for which they have not been
listed.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[A.J.]

Did he memtion anything about connecting the relay to a FACP ?

As per your original quote from the article,

"suggests using a relay to connect 110VAC smokes to a monitored alarm
system"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[James]

Firex does make a relay that is listed for use with their smoke detectors.
The problem with this is that it is a 110vac relay, if the power to the
smokes goes out the relay will not operate. I am not sure what the intended
use of the relay is but I do know some companys use it to monitor the smokes
through their burglar panel.

James

 

[Frank Olson]

Did he memtion anything about connecting the relay to a FACP ?

As per your original quote from the article,

"suggests using a relay to connect 110VAC smokes to a monitored alarm
system"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Robert's been involved in this type of debate for years. It's no sense
arguing with him. He'll never understand that a residential burg panel is
not a listed FACP. I am however surprised that Al would suggest such a
thing. In my experience 110VAC smoke alarm relays always "cycle" after a
power failure which could result in a false alarm if the unit was connected
to a monitored alarm. This having been said, there is however, no standard
or code violation involved if a homeowner decides to connect his smoke alarm
system to his burg alarm system (even if the equipment is UL listed for
fire).

 

[R.H.Campbell]

Frank, it is my understanding that here in Ontario, we are no longer allowed
to interconnect the house smoke detectors with the alarm system, even with a
relay. I have never done this because of their propensity to false alarm,
but now I understand it is also against fire code (and probably rightly
so....)

RHC

 

[Frank Olson]

Firex does make a relay that is listed for use with their smoke detectors.
The problem with this is that it is a 110vac relay, if the power to the
smokes goes out the relay will not operate. I am not sure what the
intended
use of the relay is but I do know some companys use it to monitor the
smokes
through their burglar panel.

Firex's smoke relay is called the "model 499"
(http://www.icca.invensys.com/manuals/firex/110-278F.pdf) and the
instruction manual states that "The Relay Module is not recommended for use
with authomatic dialers or security alarm panels". There's nothing in any
code or standard that states you can't use it for this purpose though.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Did he memtion anything about

connecting the relay to a FACP ?

He suggested hooking it up to an alarm system. That's a no-no. The only
auxiliary relays made for use with 110VAC smokes specifically state in the
manufacturer's instructions that they are NOT to be used with an alarm
system.

As per your original quote from the article,

"suggests using a relay to connect 110VAC
smokes to a monitored alarm system"

That wasn't a quote. It was my comment.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Firex does make a relay that is listed for use with their smoke detectors.

The problem with this is that it is a 110vac relay, if the power to the
smokes goes out the relay will not operate. I am not sure what the
intended
use of the relay is but I do know some companys use it to monitor the
smokes
through their burglar panel.

The instructions from Firex specifically state that the device is not for
use with an alarm system.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Firex's smoke relay is called the "model 499"
(http://www.icca.invensys.com/manuals/firex/110-278F.pdf) and the
instruction manual states that "The Relay Module is not recommended for
use with authomatic dialers or security alarm panels". There's nothing in
any code or standard that states you can't use it for this purpose though.

Yes, there most certainly is something in the code (USA) which prohibits it.
The code states that devices used with fire alarm systems must be listed for
the purpose and that they must be installed in accordance with the
manufacturer's instructions. Since the device is not listed for the purpose
and the manufacturer states it is not to be so used it is a code violation
to use it to connect smokes to an alarm panel.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Robert's been involved in this type of

debate for years. It's no sense arguing
with him. He'll never understand that
a residential burg panel is not a listed
FACP.

You are absolutely wrong, Frank. To use a residential burg panel with smoke
detectors anywhere in the US where NFPA is observed the panel MUST bears a
UL listing for residential fire alarm at a minimum. You can not just
connect up whatever you happen to find to a fire alarm system -- residential
or commercial.

The problem is Olson (who neither works nor lives in the USA) has zero
understanding of our codes. When you install smoke detectors or other fire
detection devices in a building in the US they need to be installed in
accordance with code. Period.

Ill-informed people sometimes think that because the panel is a residential
burglar alarm the system is not a fire alarm and is therefore not subject to
code. That is patently wrong. In order to legally connect smokes to a
burglar alarm panel in a US residence the panel must be listed for residtial
fire and all fire detection devices which are connected to it must be
installed in accordance with code.

I am however surprised that Al would
suggest such a thing...

He probably read the suggestion from another technician who posted here
without knowing what the code requires.

This having been said, there is however,
no standard or code violation involved
if a homeowner decides to connect his
smoke alarm system to his burg alarm
system (even if the equipment is UL
listed for fire).

Wrong! If he uses the Firex relay for the purpose it is a code violation.
The fact that you don't know them does not change our codes.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Frank, it is my understanding that here in Ontario, we are no longer

allowed to interconnect the house smoke detectors with the alarm system,
even with a relay. I have never done this because of their propensity to
false alarm, but now I understand it is also against fire code (and
probably rightly so....)

It's been that way here in the USA for years, Bob.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Crash Gordon®]

and it was always a bad idea anyway

It's been that way here in the USA for years, Bob.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

You are absolutely wrong, Frank. To use a residential burg panel with
smoke detectors anywhere in the US where NFPA is observed the panel MUST
bears a UL listing for residential fire alarm at a minimum. You can not
just connect up whatever you happen to find to a fire alarm system --
residential or commercial.

A burglar alarm panel will never be a listed fire alarm system. There are
plenty of panels sold in the US that aren't UL listed for fire (or burg for
that matter). There is nothing in any code or standard that prohibits a
homeowner from connecting his 110VAC smoke alarm to an auto dialler or his
security panel. You sell to DIY all the time. I seriously doubt a
homeowner is going to install a security system to the same standard as even
you would have (when you were in the trade). I've seen the result of many a
DIY job (and had to fix quite a few as well), so I do know of what I speak.

Al Columbo is absolutely correct, but I seriously doubt any professional
installer would sanction (let alone actually hook up) an unsupervised
alternatively powered device to monitored alarm control. I think it
behooves us (as professionals) to recommend the best solutions to our
clients. Hooking a 110VAC smoke alarm to any security system is not an
option.

In all fairness to you, Robert, you've raised an interesting point. Al is
both "right" and "wrong", but not for the reasons you've stated. There is
no proviso in the NEC (and I do possess a copy of it) that specifically
prohibits the connection of a relay like the Firex 499 to a security control
or automatic dialler. In fact, there isn't anything prohibiting a homeowner
from hooking up a listed smoke detector (or heat for that matter) to his
monitored security system. The issue of compatibility (and the suggested
methods of connnection) are included in every instruction manual that
accompanies any burglar alarm panel.

The problem is Olson (who neither works nor lives in the USA) has zero
understanding of our codes. When you install smoke detectors or other
fire detection devices in a building in the US they need to be installed
in accordance with code. Period.

The NEC mandates smoke detection in every single family dwelling and
specifies the areas that are required to be covered. There is nothing in
the NEC that states you can't hook up your AC smoke alarm to your security
system or an auto-dialler. I can do anything I damn well please in my own
house. I don't even have to pull a permit.

Ill-informed people sometimes think that because the panel is a
residential burglar alarm the system is not a fire alarm and is therefore
not subject to code. That is patently wrong. In order to legally connect
smokes to a burglar alarm panel in a US residence the panel must be listed
for residtial fire and all fire detection devices which are connected to
it must be installed in accordance with code.

Who says a homeowner is going to connect *anything* "legally"? An who
monitors/inspects what someone does in their own house on their own time?
Go to Home Depot, take a class on running wire, buy a self-help book (or
alternatively read a few manuals from some guy's online FAQ site), and go
for it!!

He probably read the suggestion from another technician who posted here
without knowing what the code requires.

He probably consulted a copy of the NEC, found out that technician was
absolutely correct and decided to write the article.

Wrong! If he uses the Firex relay for the purpose it is a code violation.
The fact that you don't know them does not change our codes.

Quote me the chapter and verse, Robert. I've asked you to do this at least
twice before and you've never responded with anything more than personal
attacks and innuendo.

 

[Frank Olson]

Frank, it is my understanding that here in Ontario, we are no longer
allowed to interconnect the house smoke detectors with the alarm system,
even with a relay. I have never done this because of their propensity to
false alarm, but now I understand it is also against fire code (and
probably rightly so....)

Is that the whole Province?? What's the amendment number for the OBC??

 

[Robert L. Bass]

A burglar alarm panel will never be a listed fire alarm system.

For a burglar alarm panel to be connected to smoke detectors in the US it
must be listed for the purpose. Connected to smokes, the listed panel
becomes a fire alarm system and is subject to fire alarm code.

There are plenty of panels sold in the
US that aren't UL listed for fire...

Those whuch are not listed for the purpose are not permitted to be connected
to smoke detectors. Doing so is a code violation.

There is nothing in any code or standard
that prohibits a homeowner from connecting
his 110VAC smoke alarm to an auto dialler
or his security panel...

You can restate that falsehood as many times as you like and you will still
be wrong.

You sell to DIY all the time. I seriously
doubt a homeowner is going to install a
security system to the same standard as
even you would have (when you were in
the trade)...

Ignoring your rude choice of words, whether a DIYer installs as good as or
better than a technician is irrelavent to the discussion at hand.

Al Columbo is absolutely correct...

Nope. He's wrong and so are you.

... but I seriously doubt any professional installer would sanction (let
alone actually
hook up) an unsupervised alternatively
powered device to monitored alarm control...

And yet that is precisely what Al suggested in his article in SSI.

In all fairness to you, Robert...

Now, there's a new twist.

you've raised an interesting point. Al is both "right" and "wrong", but
not for the
reasons you've stated...

Nope. He is completely wrong and so are you -- precisely for the reasons I
stated.

There is no proviso in the NEC (and I do
possess a copy of it) that specifically prohibits
the connection of a relay like the Firex 499
to a security control or automatic dialler...

Want to bet?

In fact, there isn't anything prohibiting a
homeowner ...

That's misleading, Frank. The code does not distinguish between homeowners
and paid installers. Saying that the code does or does not allow a
homeowner to do something implies that the DIYer is under less stringent
regulations than the paid installer. That is also patently false.

from hooking up a listed smoke detector (or
heat for that matter) to his monitored security
system...

As long as the alarm panel carries the proper listing and the devices being
connected are listed for the purpose that is true. However, in this case
the devices are not so listed and the only known 110VAC smoke relay on the
market is definitely not listed for use with an alarm control panel of any
kind, much less a FACP.

The issue of compatibility (and the suggested methods of connnection) are
included in every
instruction manual that accompanies any burglar
alarm panel.

Those instructions specifically state that only fire alarm devices listed
for the purpose are to be connected. There's no exemption from fire alarm
code just because one chooses to use a non-listed panel. That decision
would be a further code violation.

The NEC mandates smoke detection in
every single family dwelling and specifies
the areas that are required to be covered...

Stick to the subject at hand, Frank. We're not talking about the
requirement that there be smoke detectors. We're talking about an improper
method of connecting them to an alarm panel.

I can do anything I damn well please in
my own house...

Your house is in Canada. We are discussing US code and anyewhere in the US
where NFPA is code you can not do anything you darn well please. In some
places a permit is required and some it is not.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

For a burglar alarm panel to be connected to smoke detectors in the US it
must be listed for the purpose. Connected to smokes, the listed panel
becomes a fire alarm system and is subject to fire alarm code.

Really?? Where does it say this? What section (chapter and verse) of the
NEC? Besides, a homeowner that installs his own burg panel and then decides
to hook up fire detectors isn't going to quibble over code issues. And no
one will be the wiser. He'll "assume" it's OK to do because most burg
panels allow you to program a zone as a "fire loop" (and include diagrams on
suggested wiring methods).

Those whuch are not listed for the purpose are not permitted to be
connected to smoke detectors. Doing so is a code violation.

Where's it say that?? Any burg panel sold in the US diagrams the acceptable
methods to use to hook up a fire detector. They even give you a list of
options on how to program the zone (ie. normal 24 hour fire, delayed
response, etc.)

You can restate that falsehood as many times as you like and you will
still be wrong.

Show me!!

Ignoring your rude choice of words, whether a DIYer installs as good as or
better than a technician is irrelavent to the discussion at hand.

It has everything to do with the "discussion at hand".

Nope. He's wrong and so are you.

Show me where. Quote the chapter and verse in the NEC that specifically
prohibits the practice and I'l believe you.

And yet that is precisely what Al suggested in his article in SSI.

Yes. He did, but whether or not a professional follows his
"advice/suggestion" is another matter entirely, isn't it??

Now, there's a new twist.

Part of the "new me". It's been that way for quite a while too... You just
haven't noticed (or have decided to continue the flame war)...

Nope. He is completely wrong and so are you -- precisely for the reasons
I stated.

But you still haven't provided us with chapter and verse in the NEC (or even
in *one* local municipal code).

Want to bet?

Show me!!

That's misleading, Frank. The code does not distinguish between
homeowners and paid installers. Saying that the code does or does not
allow a homeowner to do something implies that the DIYer is under less
stringent regulations than the paid installer. That is also patently
false.

No professional installer would sanction connection of an unsupervised
device to a monitored security panel. Nothing however, prohibits them from
doing so.

As long as the alarm panel carries the proper listing and the devices
being connected are listed for the purpose that is true. However, in this
case the devices are not so listed and the only known 110VAC smoke relay
on the market is definitely not listed for use with an alarm control panel
of any kind, much less a FACP.

We're not discussing a listed FACP (and neither was Al in his article).

Those instructions specifically state that only fire alarm devices listed
for the purpose are to be connected. There's no exemption from fire alarm
code just because one chooses to use a non-listed panel. That decision
would be a further code violation.

Nope. Wrong again. Have a look at any manual. It only "suggests"
acceptable methods for connection. You don't *have to* install end-of-line
resistors at the "end of the line". Not following their suggested
connection instructions does not violate any code I know of...

Stick to the subject at hand, Frank. We're not talking about the
requirement that there be smoke detectors. We're talking about an
improper method of connecting them to an alarm panel.

Show me where the "method" is against code.

Your house is in Canada. We are discussing US code and anyewhere in the
US where NFPA is code you can not do anything you darn well please. In
some places a permit is required and some it is not.

You've defended the "rights of the DIY" to do what ever they please. A
homeowner will frequently undertake renovations without permit or
inspections. You know this to be true. You yourself have frequently stated
a homeowner doesn't need to pull a permit to install an alarm system where a
professional will *always* have to.

Al Columbo is 100% correct in his article. I think it would be time better
spent suggesting an acceptable alternative than arguing over a non-existent
code issue. I've asked this of you before and I'm asking again... Quote
the chapter and verse of the NEC where it states you *can't* hook up a
110VAC smoke alarm to a home security system or automatic dialler. Also
show me where hooking up any fire detector will magically turn the
dialler/security control into a fire alarm panel that *is* subject to code.

It's time to "put up, or shut up".

 

[Frank Olson]

The instructions from Firex specifically state that the device is not for
use with an alarm system.

The instructions from Firex state: "The Relay Module is not recommended for
use
with authomatic dialers or security alarm panels". That's a far cry from
"specifically stating" you can't use it like that, though.

 

[Frank Olson]

Yes, there most certainly is something in the code (USA) which prohibits
it.

Show me where. State chapter and verse of the NFPA, NEC, or any other "USA"
code you're referring to.

 

[Frank Olson]

Ignoring your rude choice of words, whether a DIYer installs as good as or
better than a technician is irrelavent to the discussion at hand.

What part of this did you consider "rude", pray tell?? You're not going to
rekindle that whole argument about how you're still *in* the trade are you??
Let's head that off before a difference of opinion degenerates into finger
pointing and name calling by allowing me to clarify. Change the "when you
were in the trade" to "when you were still installing" and let it go at
that.

 

[R.H.Campbell]

Dunno Frank on both counts. Since I don't do it anyway, and based on how
many dealers have told me it is so, I take it on good faith. I don't really
have the inclination to chase down the exact code amendment on it...

RHC