Ethanol from wood chips or grasses

[Bill IL]

Since ethanol was in the state of the union address, I'd thought I'd
see what you guys have to say about it. Are these viable ways to
produce ethanol? I thought dubya mentioned something other than corn,
but can't find it in the text.

Part of the purpose of mentioning ethanol in the speech may be a
message to the middle east to not get too stingy ... and I think we
may have a lot of oil off some of our coastlines where we can't drill
for now ... but we can save that for future generations ...

Is this wood chip or grass thing a good direction to head?

 

[Arnold Walker]

Since ethanol was in the state of the union address, I'd thought I'd
see what you guys have to say about it. Are these viable ways to
produce ethanol? I thought dubya mentioned something other than corn,
but can't find it in the text.

Part of the purpose of mentioning ethanol in the speech may be a
message to the middle east to not get too stingy ... and I think we
may have a lot of oil off some of our coastlines where we can't drill
for now ... but we can save that for future generations ...

Is this wood chip or grass thing a good direction to head?

Cellulose conversion is not a new thing,methanol is better than ethanol
though.
ethanol is more PC.........
Thermal depolymerization is even better.......but not considered biodiesel
in the grant
program circuit.

 

[Arnold Walker]

Cellulose conversion is not a new thing,methanol is better than ethanol
though.
Ethanol is more PC.........
Thermal depolymerization is even better.......but not considered biodiesel
in the grant program circuit.

Ethanol produces about 320% of the energy used to produce it.....
thermal depolymerization yields 560% of the energy used to produce it.
Both are markedly better than the energy yields from hydrogen production.
Thermal depolymerization delivers oil at $80 a barrel ($1.90 a gallon
wholesale....Uncle Sam/states add $.35 a gallon tax and the
producer/distribution/filling station adds about $.50 profit for roughly
$2.85 on sulfur-free diesel at the pump. ) with the producer paying $30 to
$40 a ton on the feedstock.

Total available output of diesel is estimated at 4billions barrels a
year(roughly what we buy from the middle east in oil)....using combination
of ag refuse,sewage, and municiple garbage.
This is using the figures off the Cathage,Missouri "butterball " turkey
plant.(turkey guts ,etc. for feedstock)
Wood and grass actually does better because of water content compared to
turkey offage or sewage.

 

[mike wilcox]

Where is all the wood and grass going to come from?

The same place as the Hydrogen did last year, out of bush's..........

 

[Ron Purvis]

There is plenty of wood and grass to make a huge dent in our oil imports.
Right now our area has such a huge amount of downed trees and limbs, that it
has been waiting to be picked up for over 45 days since the ice storm
because there is just too much of it for the county to handle. Every year
this is a problem. There is also tremendous amounts of grass and other yard
that could be converted to fuel. It is also possible to plant specific types
of plants that will produce the most fuel in the smallest space and time.
Currently there is enough wood, grass, and other celluse biomass that we
could replace 40% of the gasoline consumed with ethanol. Using even more
efficient methods and planting more fields specifically with grass for this
purpose, we could easily replace over 50% of our gasoline needs. Add the
full potential of thermal depolymerization from animal wastes and increased
usage of hybrid electric vehicles, we could possibly provide all of vehicle
fuel needs by these two methods.

 

[Arnold Walker]

There is plenty of wood and grass to make a huge dent in our oil imports.
Right now our area has such a huge amount of downed trees and limbs, that
it has been waiting to be picked up for over 45 days since the ice storm
because there is just too much of it for the county to handle. Every year
this is a problem. There is also tremendous amounts of grass and other
yard that could be converted to fuel. It is also possible to plant
specific types of plants that will produce the most fuel in the smallest
space and time. Currently there is enough wood, grass, and other celluse
biomass that we could replace 40% of the gasoline consumed with ethanol.
Using even more efficient methods and planting more fields specifically
with grass for this purpose, we could easily replace over 50% of our
gasoline needs. Add the full potential of thermal depolymerization from
animal wastes and increased usage of hybrid electric vehicles, we could
possibly provide all of vehicle fuel needs by these two methods.

Might add TDP works with almost all carbon based items, so in addition to
animals waste.
You can convert coal as well....
In theory,you got something that will run in existing vehicles.
While new fleet of other vehicles like ethanol,fuel cells,etc...... develope
far enorgh to
make it to the road.Instead of a research site......
And no oil dependence in the time frame layed out in the speech.
No matter what happens ,the answer will be in multiple fuels and methods,not
one super winner takes all idea.

 

[mike wilcox]

There is plenty of wood and grass to make a huge dent in our oil imports.
Right now our area has such a huge amount of downed trees and limbs, that it
has been waiting to be picked up for over 45 days since the ice storm
because there is just too much of it for the county to handle. Every year
this is a problem. There is also tremendous amounts of grass and other yard
that could be converted to fuel. It is also possible to plant specific types
of plants that will produce the most fuel in the smallest space and time.
Currently there is enough wood, grass, and other celluse biomass that we
could replace 40% of the gasoline consumed with ethanol. Using even more
efficient methods and planting more fields specifically with grass for this
purpose, we could easily replace over 50% of our gasoline needs. Add the
full potential of thermal depolymerization from animal wastes and increased
usage of hybrid electric vehicles, we could possibly provide all of vehicle
fuel needs by these two methods.

And just where to these stats exist? Everything I've read leads me to
believe we would be lucky to replace even 25% with bio fuels.

 

[Nick Hull]

There is plenty of wood and grass to make a huge dent in our oil imports.
Right now our area has such a huge amount of downed trees and limbs, that it
has been waiting to be picked up for over 45 days since the ice storm
because there is just too much of it for the county to handle. Every year
this is a problem. There is also tremendous amounts of grass and other yard
that could be converted to fuel. It is also possible to plant specific types
of plants that will produce the most fuel in the smallest space and time.
Currently there is enough wood, grass, and other celluse biomass that we
could replace 40% of the gasoline consumed with ethanol. Using even more
efficient methods and planting more fields specifically with grass for this
purpose, we could easily replace over 50% of our gasoline needs. Add the
full potential of thermal depolymerization from animal wastes and increased
usage of hybrid electric vehicles, we could possibly provide all of vehicle
fuel needs by these two methods.

There are a few problems; as soon as you try to make ethanol out of
anything the BATF will raid you. IIRC the grass best suited for energy
production is called hemp (marijuana) and the DEA will be all over you
if you try to make energy from it. If you find a legal method, expect a
new law to be passed to make it illegal.

 

[Ron Purvis]

Maybe you should learn to read the links that were already in this thread?
The one ( http://www.iogen.ca ) stated the 40% figure.

"Helps Build Rural Economies

Cellulose ethanol biorefineries will strengthen local economies by creating
thousands of jobs, while making agriculture a more sustainable industry.
Recent reports from the U.S. Department of Energy/Department of Agriculture
state that there is enough biomass feedstock for cellulose ethanol
production in the U.S. to displace approximately 40% of current U.S.
gasoline consumption."

There are enough fields that are unused today and could be planted with more
effective plants that would allow the U.S. to replace another 10% of the
current U.S. gasoline consumption. Add the full potential of thermal
depolymerization from animal wastes. According to the CWT site, the 6
billion tons of agricultural wastes could be converted to 4 billion barrels
of oil. That and the techniques from Iogen alone could technically replace
all of the current oil use in the U.S. Add greatly increased usage of
electric hybrid vehicles, and we could do it. The only question is will we.

 

[Ron Purvis]

Nick,

Ethanol is produced everyday. As long as it is done legally, the BATF has no
problems with it. You are correct that currently the U.S does not allow
hemp. However, we are lucky that our neighbors do allow hemp production and
that could be used to provide fuel. Further, if the price of oil becomes
high enough, the U.S. will allow hemp production.

 

[mike wilcox]

Maybe you should learn to read the links that were already in this thread?
The one ( http://www.iogen.ca ) stated the 40% figure.

"Helps Build Rural Economies

Cellulose ethanol biorefineries will strengthen local economies by creating
thousands of jobs, while making agriculture a more sustainable industry.
Recent reports from the U.S. Department of Energy/Department of Agriculture
state that there is enough biomass feedstock for cellulose ethanol
production in the U.S. to displace approximately 40% of current U.S.
gasoline consumption."

There are enough fields that are unused today and could be planted with more
effective plants that would allow the U.S. to replace another 10% of the
current U.S. gasoline consumption. Add the full potential of thermal
depolymerization from animal wastes. According to the CWT site, the 6
billion tons of agricultural wastes could be converted to 4 billion barrels
of oil. That and the techniques from Iogen alone could technically replace
all of the current oil use in the U.S. Add greatly increased usage of
electric hybrid vehicles, and we could do it. The only question is will we.

Only 19% of the USA is arable land, an of that not all of it is capable
of growing crops suited to alcohol or biodiesel production or can remain
in production year after year. In Canada for example the amount of gas
used in cars every year is 33-35 billion liters. Even if you took the
total grain production of all types, 50 million tonnes a year, it
wouldn't cover half what's needed just for cars alone**

** It takes 8-9 million tonnes to produce 3.3-3.5 billion liters of
alcohol. Also alcohol energy is not one for one with gasoline, you would
need 20% more alcohol to equal the engery output of gasoline.


**

 

[Ron Purvis]

Mike,

I am sorry but you just are not understanding what is written. I never
suggested that we increase the amount of grain production. That is a
different type of ethanol production technology. What I was referring to,
and the link and this whole thread is about does not have anything to do
with that technology. Please look at the title of the thread. It is
referring to ethanol from wood chips or grasses. The technology that Iogen
uses can break down the actual cellulose for ethanol production. That is
all the waste wood, grass, shrubs, etc. that is being burned, carried to
landfills, or other methods of removal from the original site that is
counted in the 40% estimate by the government. Take note that it was not my
estimate. Nor was it an estimate from Iogen. It was an official estimate of
the government as to how much feedstock there are currently. I also feel
sure that the people making the 40% estimate understand the difference
between gasoline and ethanol. You don't have to worry about telling us the
difference since it already factored in.

I do not want to sound insulting, but I would appreciate that you actually
read the posts that you reply to. It would save time for everyone and
bandwidth.

 

[mike wilcox]

Mike,

I am sorry but you just are not understanding what is written. I never
suggested that we increase the amount of grain production. That is a
different type of ethanol production technology. What I was referring to,
and the link and this whole thread is about does not have anything to do
with that technology. Please look at the title of the thread. It is
referring to ethanol from wood chips or grasses. The technology that Iogen
uses can break down the actual cellulose for ethanol production. That is
all the waste wood, grass, shrubs, etc. that is being burned, carried to
landfills, or other methods of removal from the original site that is
counted in the 40% estimate by the government. Take note that it was not my
estimate. Nor was it an estimate from Iogen. It was an official estimate of
the government as to how much feedstock there are currently. I also feel
sure that the people making the 40% estimate understand the difference
between gasoline and ethanol. You don't have to worry about telling us the
difference since it already factored in.

I do not want to sound insulting, but I would appreciate that you actually
read the posts that you reply to. It would save time for everyone and
bandwidth.

I read the entire thread, my point is it is simply not possible to
replace petroleum with ethanol to any great degree, regardless of how
you produce it.

My example was used to show that if you took the entire yearly crop of a
huge country, even a small population it's a no go. Much of the "Waste "
they are talking about is already used in the more modern plants for
other purposes such as cogeneration or value added products
( wood chips to pellets, chipboard or mdf). If you have the acreage to
do it yourself, go for it, but it's not going to solve our energy
problems by a long shot.

 

[Ron Purvis]

I read the entire thread, my point is it is simply not possible to replace
petroleum with ethanol to any great degree, regardless of how you produce
it.

My example was used to show that if you took the entire yearly crop of a
huge country, even a small population it's a no go. Much of the "Waste "
they are talking about is already used in the more modern plants for other
purposes such as cogeneration or value added products
( wood chips to pellets, chipboard or mdf). If you have the acreage to do
it yourself, go for it, but it's not going to solve our energy problems by
a long shot.

It is your opinion that it is not possible. However your opinion is
absolutely worthless when you can't keep your arguments to the subject at
hand. Again, you mention the entire crop of a huge country. Yet that has
nothing to do with the topic. There is no crop involved. You also are
totally incorrect in your assumption that much of the waste is going to
other purposes. That is simply not the case. The biomass from that report is
stuff that is not being used.

 

[mike wilcox]

It is your opinion that it is not possible. However your opinion is
absolutely worthless when you can't keep your arguments to the subject at
hand. Again, you mention the entire crop of a huge country. Yet that has
nothing to do with the topic. There is no crop involved. You also are
totally incorrect in your assumption that much of the waste is going to
other purposes. That is simply not the case. The biomass from that report is
stuff that is not being used.

Believe what you like, if you took the entire bio mass production and
the waste of the USA and turned it into alcohol it wouldn't replace
petroleum. To replace the current 380,000,000 gallons of gas the USA
uses a day would require four times the current land mass under cultivation.

 

[Ron Purvis]

Mike,

I really suggest that you either learn to read or stop posting. No one
suggested the entire biomass/waste converted into alcohol would replace all
the petroleum used today. They said the biomass would be enough for 40%. I
again say that you need to learn to read before posting. Since you can't
seem to do that, I will just try and ignore your statements.

 

[mike wilcox]

Mike,

I really suggest that you either learn to read or stop posting. No one
suggested the entire biomass/waste converted into alcohol would replace all
the petroleum used today. They said the biomass would be enough for 40%. I
again say that you need to learn to read before posting. Since you can't
seem to do that, I will just try and ignore your statements.

I suggest you do the same, my point is that ethanol is being made out to
be a panacea, much like Hydrogen was last year. While some forms of
ethanol production makes more sense than hydrogen, there is no way 40%
replacement of petroleum is possible with etahnol. That may poke holes
in your happy day, but then life's like that ;~)

 

[Psiclone]

i was thinking about growing switchgrass on my land but i'm not sure how
soon the tecnology will come into play to utilize it. from what i hear to et
switchgrass to full yield it takes 3 years.

 

[John & / or Maryln]

i was thinking about growing switchgrass on my land but i'm not sure how
soon the tecnology will come into play to utilize it. from what i hear to et
switchgrass to full yield it takes 3 years.

Let me say right off that I don't know much about converting wood chips to
ethanol but my very limited research made me think that the problem with
chips is that the cellulose is hard to render into sugars to make the
alcohol. Corn and such is not a problem , you make a mash and distill it.But
with wood chips you need some kind of microorganism which will break apart
the cellulose first. Humans
have been cultivating yeasts for a long time, sourdough , wine, beer,
sauerkraut,silage, kim chee and probably more. So perhaps it is just a
question of finding the right yeast to break down the cellulose and then
keep it happy. Incidently for me both sourdough and kim chee have become
staples.


regards, john


http://www.cdkitchen.com/recipes/recs/79/KimCheeKoreanPickledCabba22891.shtml

http://www.sourdo.com/tasmanian.html

 

[Ron Purvis]

You should think about reading the rest of the thread and the links in the
thread. You would find that there is already a solution that works for this.