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Electronic Relay

Hi,

I would like to find an adjustable variable timing relay to control the cycling of an automotive air conditioner compressor. The voltage is 12v, but not sure of the amperage at this point and will find out once I check the fuse. The relay could be mechanical or electronic.

This will solve a very expensive repair due to a recurring broken wire problem somewhere in an SUV wiring harness.

Thanks!
 
I am not following why you don't just repair the wire and if the prior repair failed, do the repair better than the last time? Buying a piece of wire, heatshrink tubing, even a $5 soldering iron with solder and wire cutters too is not very expensive.

Was it not routed through a safe location? Wires don't just damage themselves if repaired correctly. I can imagine a few possibilities:

- Wire not routed away from belt, pulleys, fan, suspension, and exhaust manifold
- Wire gauge too high (thin)
- Wire passed through sharp sheet metal firewall and wire insulation failed
- Hack repair where wire was not properly soldered and heatshrink tubed.
- Connector contacts oxidized or dirty causing wire insulation to melt from excessive heat and/or not complete the circuit
- Compressor clutch coil is shorted, causing over-current and of course failure of clutch to engage.

I am not an HVAC tech but the vehicle should have control of turning it on and off for reasons such as the pressure, starting the engine, wide open throttle, and in some newer vehicles or those with electronic dash controls, the ambient interior and/or exterior temperature.

Regardless, what vehicle and engine is it? Presumably it is belt driven so the current is just that needed to activate the compressor clutch? It would help if you can dig up a proper wiring diagram/schematic for this circuit. I have wiring diagrams for different vehicles and could look up what the circuit fuse rating is for (those different vehicles' clutches) which could be a good conservative value to go with for DIY relay current capacity - even though I think the DIY add-on relay is the wrong solution until I know more about why.

For example on a Ford Explorer SUV, the A/C clutch solenoid is fused for 10A, before running through an A/C relay controlled by the PCM (powertrain control module) using both feedback from the dash HVAC controls and other state-of-vehicle and environment sensors.

Anyway, this is most likely not hard to pinpoint the fault in order to fix to factory operating state, likely using nothing more than a multimeter and possibly a meter probe wire extension (aka a piece of jumper wire) for added length. Have you sought assistance in a forum for owners of that make and model vehicle?
 
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Thank you for your comprehensive reply. This is a 2003 Lincoln Navigator with 114,000 mi which we bought in early 2005 when it had less than 12,000 mi on it, and we live in the hot and dry Southwest. My mechanic who did repair a break in the same wire about a month ago, said that due to our climate, the newer vehicles tend to have more electrical problems from the wires than elsewhere. Since my wife does not want let go of this SUV which has been quite reliable, my mechanic said it would be best to replace the wiring harness for the long term. He said it would be quite expensive if he could even find one. So I thought maybe we could just bypass the problem wire with a new wire or if that was not possible, do the fix I outlined above. Or I could have him just keep on repairing the wire if possible. One other note, the A/C system compressor, dryer etc. were replaced with new within the last year.

Thanks again!
 
There is no reason why this wire that failed is particularly prone to failing. I think the repair was done poorly.

Any wire under the hood is going to be exposed to as much heat, some even more across the top of the engine, but if it were a special application where it was needed, you could use a silicone insulated wire. I've never had a need to in a vehicle except that some silicone wire has very high strand count making it very flexible which is ideal for wires to door switch panels which get bent in the hinge area every time the door is opened or closed.

If there is extensive damage to multiple wires then we're talking about multiple subsystems and merely wiring the A/C clutch won't take care of the rest - you'd still need the wiring harness. If on the other hand, it is just this ONE wire which goes to the compressor clutch (or the ground return wire), there is no need to replace a whole harness for that, merely spice in the new piece of wire and route and protect it appropriately, though a plastic wire loom if present, in the factory clips that are scattered in the engine bay for this purpose (or use nylon wire ties if they've been lost or got brittle and broke.

A new piece of wire doesn't even "need" to go where the factory was, merely routed safely and connecting the two points in the circuit. If it's only a 10A circuit you could string it all kinds of different directions so long as it's safely out of the way and makes it to the destination.

Since you have a Lincoln Navigator, odds are fair that it has the same (similar enough) A/C setup as the Ford Explorer diagram I was looking at. The compressor clutch ground can go to *any* chassis ground point, and the clutch positive wire goes from the clutch to the A/C relay pin # 5. On the Explorer it's a gray/white wire. Might be gray/white on the Navigator, or might not.

Depending on where the wire is damaged, you might opt to leave the old wire in place if it is not shorting out against anything else. You can access the appropriate A/C relay wire leading into the back of the respective relay box. A forum post I saw, indicated that this relay box is under-hood behind the driver's headlight - that could be incorrect, but now that I think about it, your mechanic could also be incorrect about the problem. Frankly I don't put much trust in a mechanic that has attempted a simple wiring repair and seems to have failed at it, but I can understand some that have a mental block about repairs that involve anything other than swapping in a new OEM part #, particularly if it is a dealership repair shop they will want to swap in a new expensive part even if they sneakily just solder the old wire together and don't tell you about it.

I suppose I'm suggesting that if your mechanic won't fix the failed repair for free then it is a good idea to get a second opinion, get it fixed somewhere else if you can't DIY. Ask a shop/mechanic specifically if they can just solder (or correctly crimp) in a new wire rather than replacing a whole harness. Ask before you even take it to them, to get an idea if they're old-school enough to replace individual wires.

It does NOT need a new wiring harness just to fix a damaged A/C clutch wire, but first it is important to determine if it is even a damaged wire and how, why it got damaged. It could be something as simple as road debris flew up and sliced it but this does not make a repair likely to fail later... unless you keep hitting road debris (lol) and then a shield should be put there it protect the wire or it should be routed differently.
 
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davenn

Moderator
My mechanic who did repair a break in the same wire about a month ago, said that due to our climate, the newer vehicles tend to have more electrical problems from the wires than elsewhere.

Sorry for being blunt but … this of course, is garbage, climate ISNT going to cause wire breaks

There is no reason why this wire that failed is particularly prone to failing. I think the repair was done poorly.

this is most likely the cause and the mechanic is trying to blame reasons other than his poor work

go to a better auto electrician or repair it yourself as @dave9 has already suggested
If the wire path and break point is in a loom area that is hard to get to, then just bypass it with a new run of wire
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
One other note, the A/C system compressor, dryer etc. were replaced with new within the last year.
We have a 2002 Ford Taurus Station Wagon, now with over 250,000 miles on the odometer. We purchased it used from a dealer, who has since gone out of business (Planet Ford, Centerville, OH), to replace an earlier model-year Taurus Station Wagon that I purchased new and drove until the wheels literally fell off... water entered through a tear in a rubber boot and caused corrosion failure of the constant-velocity joints in the front-wheel drive system. My fault for not having the car professionally inspected and serviced periodically. The salted winter roads in Dayton, OH, can be very destructive to automobiles.

It appeared that, although well maintained and in good running condition, the replacement car was driven a LOT, perhaps by a traveling salesperson. But this automobile has given us good service for fifteen years and we had it professionally maintained during that time... repairs are usually cheaper than monthly car finance payments!

Until be moved to Venice, FL, in December 2016, the most expensive repair was replacement of the high-tension wiring and platinum spark-plugs at about 200,000 miles. After moving to Florida the air conditioning failed the following summer. One of our sons is a trained auto mechanic living in Cookeville, TN. So, on a round trip from Venice to Dayton and back to Venice, we stopped to visit him and he offered to fix the A/C for cost-of-parts only. After several days and several hundred dollars we were on the road again, but if the repairs had been performed by a factory authorized dealer, I am sure the cost would have been in the thousand dollar or more range, far exceeding the value of this automobile.

Automotive A/C systems are among the most highly stressed mechanical components in a modern automobile. The operating environment is severe because of heat under the hood and vibration everywhere. The most common fault is a leak in the refrigerant circulation system. The most common DIY error is to simply add more refrigerant to replace the leaked amount.

This was a common practice thirty or so years ago when cars were replaced every two or three years, but over the long term it becomes a total disaster. A refrigerant leak allows moisture in the air to enter into the closed system. Moisture in the air condenses to liquid under pressure. Liquid water does not compress at all. The result is a damaged A/C compressor. The only solution is to find and repair the leak, vacuum evacuate the refrigerant system until all traces of water vapor are removed, then replace the refrigerant by measured weight and then verify with pressure gauges that the system is working properly. It is not uncommon to also have to replace several other components besides the A/C compressor: its electromagnetic clutch, the expansion valve, the drier, the condenser, and the evaporator along with "O"-ring sealed pressure fittings and sometimes refrigerant tubing. The cost of properly repairing an automobile A/C system can easily exceed the used value of the car, which is why it pays to have the work done by a certified mechanic who uses the proper equipment. Not many shade tree mechanics are even aware of the necessity to use a vacuum pump to evacuate the entire refrigerant system after it is opened to the atmosphere. Nor are they equipped with the proper facilities to reclaim used refrigerant for proper disposal and/or recycling under Federal law.

Good luck replacing that "faulty" wire. But please be aware that if it did indeed fail, there was a reason for the failure and that reason has nothing to do with climate. Find the reason before replacing the wire. Overpriced automotive A/C service is one of the biggest scams around. Shop around and ask for referrals from satisfied customers. Actually call those "satisfied customers" and verify their experience.
 
Although maybe not applicable to your mechanic, I have personally had wiring "fixes" by a local petrol mechanic-cum-wannabe "auto-electrician".
Besides crossed wiring via headlamp and radiator fan, the joins were shoddy, with twisted wire ends taped over with tightly-stretched PVC insulation tape, which over several weeks, unravelled and fell off.
If DIY I suggest insulated banana-plug connectors, well crimped on clean stripped wire ends (for joins), taped over with glass adhesive tape (sticks better than PVC tape, and heatproof).
 
I am not following why you don't just repair the wire and if the prior repair failed, do the repair better than the last time? Buying a piece of wire, heatshrink tubing, even a $5 soldering iron with solder and wire cutters too is not very expensive.

Was it not routed through a safe location? Wires don't just damage themselves if repaired correctly. I can imagine a few possibilities:

- Wire not routed away from belt, pulleys, fan, suspension, and exhaust manifold
- Wire gauge too high (thin)
- Wire passed through sharp sheet metal firewall and wire insulation failed
- Hack repair where wire was not properly soldered and heatshrink tubed.
- Connector contacts oxidized or dirty causing wire insulation to melt from excessive heat and/or not complete the circuit
- Compressor clutch coil is shorted, causing over-current and of course failure of clutch to engage.

I am not an HVAC tech but the vehicle should have control of turning it on and off for reasons such as the pressure, starting the engine, wide open throttle, and in some newer vehicles or those with electronic dash controls, the ambient interior and/or exterior temperature.

Regardless, what vehicle and engine is it? Presumably it is belt driven so the current is just that needed to activate the compressor clutch? It would help if you can dig up a proper wiring diagram/schematic for this circuit. I have wiring diagrams for different vehicles and could look up what the circuit fuse rating is for (those different vehicles' clutches) which could be a good conservative value to go with for DIY relay current capacity - even though I think the DIY add-on relay is the wrong solution until I know more about why.

For example on a Ford Explorer SUV, the A/C clutch solenoid is fused for 10A, before running through an A/C relay controlled by the PCM (powertrain control module) using both feedback from the dash HVAC controls and other state-of-vehicle and environment sensors.

Anyway, this is most likely not hard to pinpoint the fault in order to fix to factory operating state, likely using nothing more than a multimeter and possibly a meter probe wire extension (aka a piece of jumper wire) for added length. Have you sought assistance in a forum for owners of that make and model vehicle?
 
OK, just met with my mechanic and he said that the A/C harness pigtail connector is the problem and he has a new one on order. They are not very expensive and are all over eBay. Here is what I found: A/C Compressor Clutch connector Motorcraft WPT-173.

His diagnosis was done last Friday afternoon just before he was closing. He did a quick wiggle of the harness and the clutch engaged.

The problem I had is when the A/C stopped working a few weeks ago, he wiggled the connector and the clutch immediately engaged. He said it could be a broken wire, but try it out and see what happens. My misunderstanding about a repaired wire. And he did not charge me anything.

Anyway, he has been a good reliable mechanic over the years and has done repair on this and other vehicles we have owned and I have never had a problem.

Thanks everyone for your very informative replies!
 
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