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In sci.physics Le Chaud Lapin said:
My OP said "one-seater".

OK, subtract about 200 pounds, you are still left with close to a
thousand pounds.
If by "real", you mean ICE, that might be difference in opinion. You
are imagining something that looks more or less like a Cessna.

No, real means real and something that is obtainable as something
other than a Star Trek prop from a memorabilia dealer.
Unless 10 mph is one of several ranges.

There are many reasons someone might like to momentarily fly 10 mph.

So there is only "momentarily" a chance of a mid air collision?

What is it that your fly-by-wire home built will be able to do that any
modern airplane such as a Cirrus SR22 can't do?

What materials are you going to use to build the airframe of your home
built?

If you encounter significant turbulence, what is the first thing you do
and why?
 
L

Le Chaud Lapin

So there is only "momentarily" a chance of a mid air collision?

Momentarily meaning that sometimes 10 mph is desirable, and sometimes
100 mph is desirable, and sometimes speeds in between is desirable, so
an aircraft where entire range is accessible might be desirable.

Then, two aicraft, traveling 10mph each, colliding, might not result
in catastrophic failure. Depending on how aircraft is constructed, it
might happen that most low-speed collisions do not result in
catastrophic failure. For example, an aircraft with exposed propeller
might result in more damage than one without.

So a lot depends on the design of the aircraft. It is not an inherent
necessity of flying that most collisions result in catastrophic
failure. That is only an attribute of existing aircraft.

-Le Chuad Lapin-
 
In sci.physics Le Chaud Lapin said:
Momentarily meaning that sometimes 10 mph is desirable, and sometimes
100 mph is desirable, and sometimes speeds in between is desirable, so
an aircraft where entire range is accessible might be desirable.


And in your fantasy world aircraft are going to be spending the majority
of their time at less than 10 MPH?

What is it that your fly-by-wire home built will be able to do that any
modern airplane such as a Cirrus SR22 can't do?

What materials are you going to use to build the airframe of your home
built?

If you encounter significant turbulence, what is the first thing you do
and why?
 
L

Le Chaud Lapin

And in your fantasy world aircraft are going to be spending the majority
of their time at less than 10 MPH?

Why do you say "majority of their time at less than 10 MPH?"?

-Le Chaud Lapin-
 
In sci.physics Le Chaud Lapin said:
Why do you say "majority of their time at less than 10 MPH?"?

Do you know what a "?" at the end of a sentence means?

What is it that your fly-by-wire home built will be able to do that any
modern airplane such as a Cirrus SR22 can't do?

What materials are you going to use to build the airframe of your home
built?

If you encounter significant turbulence, what is the first thing you do
and why?
 
D

Don Klipstein

Le said:
Momentarily meaning that sometimes 10 mph is desirable, and sometimes
100 mph is desirable, and sometimes speeds in between is desirable, so
an aircraft where entire range is accessible might be desirable.

Then, two aicraft, traveling 10mph each, colliding, might not result
in catastrophic failure.

An aircraft staying airborne at 10 MPH sounds to me like:

* A lighter-than-air craft (tell me how it will achieve 100 MPH) - may
still have trouble weathering a 10 MPH collision

* something slow and fragile, towards the Gossamer Condor or the
Gossamer Albatross (tell me how this will survive a 10 MPH collission or
achieve 100 MPH)

* Helicopter or Osprey sort of a thing (with collisions involving rotor
contact usually being catastrophic)

I am not a pilot, I merely know one and know weather well, and I know
that airspeed is normally expressed in knots - nautical miles per hour.

Also, an aircraft that is airborne at very slow airspeed still has to
deal with sharing airspace with fixed wing aircraft that need airspeeds
mostly near or over 40 knots to be airborne, unless the slow aircraft is
restricted to where Cessnas and Piper Cubs are prohibited but aircraft are
permitted (where?).
Helicopters have some expectation of moving at speeds fairly usual for
fixed wing aircraft unless they are hovering - usually either close to the
ground or in urban areas usually within TCA areas below the TCA conical
area.
Ultralights are prohibited in urban areas - don't plan on much
utilization of ultralights (or much of anything else besides
news/traffic helicopters and police helicopters) where helicopters have
much use of hovering at 1,000 feet or whatever in urban areas. And
outside TCA areas, fixed wing aircraft are allowed at 1,000 and 2,000
feet!

And farming areas have some incidence of fixed wing aircraft spraying
insecticides or whatever onto farms at low altitudes, and that may require
permits from FAA.

Also keep in mind that most smaller aircraft have pressure altimeters,
subject to frequent need for adjustment according to reports from nearest
airport, and are still inherently inaccurate far from that airport in a
significant pressure pattern and also inherently inaccurate far from the
airport altitude unless the average temperature from yours to that of the
reporting airport is "close to average".
Do you plan on having a pressure altimeter, a radar altimeter (which
reportas altitude above ground, while you need to know your altitude above
sea level and thus ground elevation every mile of the way)? Or a
GPS-based altimeter (reporting latitude above sea level)? Regardless of
altimeter type, you need to know how high the ground is to be above the
ground to the proper extent and also be above sea level to the
proper/planned extent.
Depending on how aircraft is constructed, it
might happen that most low-speed collisions do not result in
catastrophic failure. For example, an aircraft with exposed propeller
might result in more damage than one without.

So tell us what your aircraft without an exposed propeller is. Does it
merely have the propeller within a tube and/or screens?

If you want patent protection first, a provisional patent application
(with deadline to use towards a full utility patent application of 1 year)
costs maybe $130 or so last time I checked. Plus something cose to
$15 for Express Mail, which is the *significantly* preferred way to
submit an application by mail - otherwise learn how to do so online
to USPTO.
Include at least one drawing, at least one claim, and at least some sort
of "detailed description" to be used with the drawing(s) to describe the
invention. It helps to make some effort to achieve some resemblance to an
actual utility patent application or an actual granted patent or published
patent application. For a provisional, my experience indicates little or
no harm to omit assignee, references, and "application data sheet" (or
whatever that is). But you have a deadline of 1st anniversary of the
provisional filing date (mailing date if via Express Mail) to use the
provisional towards a full utility patent application.
In a provisional, the drawing does not need to be of formal quality,
but there are technical requirements if the filing is done online.
In a full utility application, drawings do not need to be of "formal
quality", but should be good enough to make a decent impression upon the
patent examiner. If you get an assignee lined up or have plans to use the
patent for your own manufacture, then you should have in the budget a
draftsperson for "formal quality" patent drawings once you get notice that
you have claims allowed (you will get a patent) and accordingly
notification of requirement for drawings to be redone to "formal quality"
if they are not there yet.

So you can get patent protection for somewhat over $100 and a little
work and some commitment.
So a lot depends on the design of the aircraft. It is not an inherent
necessity of flying that most collisions result in catastrophic
failure. That is only an attribute of existing aircraft.

Keep in mind that your aircraft is subject to collission with "existing
aircraft". How does that affect collision survivability to your aircraft
or the other aircraft? Can a Cessna survive colliding with your aircraft
at 40-60-plus knot airspeed? Can your aircraft survive such a collission?

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
L

Le Chaud Lapin

  So tell us what your aircraft without an exposed propeller is.  Does it
merely have the propeller within a tube and/or screens?

Cannot say yet because...
  If you want patent protection first,

I do.
a provisional patent application
(with deadline to use towards a full utility patent application of 1 year)
costs maybe $130 or so last time I checked.  Plus something cose to
$15 for Express Mail, which is the *significantly* preferred way to
submit an application by mail - otherwise learn how to do so online
to USPTO.
  So you can get patent protection for somewhat over $100 and a little
work and some commitment.

I used the Disclosure Document Program before it was discontinued in
favor of Provisional Patent:

Reference for others:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/provapp.htm
  Keep in mind that your aircraft is subject to collission with "existing
aircraft".  How does that affect collision survivability to your aircraft
or the other aircraft?  Can a Cessna survive colliding with your aircraft
at 40-60-plus knot airspeed?  Can your aircraft survive such a collission?

It is hard to say without doing any simulations, but as I envision it,
a Cessna's
prop would cause much damage to my aircraft if my aircraft came in
contact with the prop. Otherwise, whether it could continue to fly
woulddepend much on the dynamics of the collision. Two of my aircraft
colliding with each other would cause very severe jolt, but would
probably leave the planes flyable. The "wings" on my aircraft would
be "atypical", so it would be harder to sheer them off during
collision. I would include a parachute with each airframe.

I discussed design with my flight school owner, and it was agreed
providing a disproportinate amount of protection to the pilot, versus
the aircraft, is not a bad idea, if costs would be so significantly
reduced.

-Le Chaud Lapin-
 
In sci.physics Don Klipstein said:
An aircraft staying airborne at 10 MPH sounds to me like:

* A lighter-than-air craft (tell me how it will achieve 100 MPH) - may
still have trouble weathering a 10 MPH collision

* something slow and fragile, towards the Gossamer Condor or the
Gossamer Albatross (tell me how this will survive a 10 MPH collission or
achieve 100 MPH)

* Helicopter or Osprey sort of a thing (with collisions involving rotor
contact usually being catastrophic)

He keeps saying airplane and lighter-than-air, helicopters, and the
Osprey are not airplanes.

Given his demonstrated lack of languages skills, it could well be he
doesn't know what the word "airplane" means.
I am not a pilot, I merely know one and know weather well, and I know
that airspeed is normally expressed in knots - nautical miles per hour.

Usually, though older airplanes, home builts, and LSA's often still
use MPH.
Also, an aircraft that is airborne at very slow airspeed still has to
deal with sharing airspace with fixed wing aircraft that need airspeeds
mostly near or over 40 knots to be airborne, unless the slow aircraft is
restricted to where Cessnas and Piper Cubs are prohibited but aircraft are
permitted (where?).

Nowhere. There are areas with maximum speed limits like 200 kts and
250 kts, but no minimums.

In the US, if an airplane has a N number, i.e. is registered, it flys
and there is no discrimination in the airspace.
Helicopters have some expectation of moving at speeds fairly usual for
fixed wing aircraft unless they are hovering - usually either close to the
ground or in urban areas usually within TCA areas below the TCA conical
area.
Ultralights are prohibited in urban areas - don't plan on much
utilization of ultralights (or much of anything else besides
news/traffic helicopters and police helicopters) where helicopters have
much use of hovering at 1,000 feet or whatever in urban areas. And
outside TCA areas, fixed wing aircraft are allowed at 1,000 and 2,000
feet!

Other than landing and taking off, airplanes must be operated 1000 feet
above the highest obstacle within 2000 in congested areas (cities, etc.)
and 500 feet in open water and sparsely populated areas (farm country, etc.).

There are LOTS of airplanes flying between 1500 and 3000 feet AGL on
short flights.
Also keep in mind that most smaller aircraft have pressure altimeters,

All airplanes are REQUIRED to have a pressure altimeters.
So tell us what your aircraft without an exposed propeller is. Does it
merely have the propeller within a tube and/or screens?

He has a good deal on Star Trek shuttle craft engines.
 
In sci.physics Le Chaud Lapin said:
It is hard to say without doing any simulations, but as I envision it,
a Cessna's
prop would cause much damage to my aircraft if my aircraft came in
contact with the prop. Otherwise, whether it could continue to fly
woulddepend much on the dynamics of the collision. Two of my aircraft
colliding with each other would cause very severe jolt, but would
probably leave the planes flyable. The "wings" on my aircraft would
be "atypical", so it would be harder to sheer them off during
collision. I would include a parachute with each airframe.

Wings don't usually sheer off in mid air collisions.

Typically the airplane gets "bent" enough that the aerodynamics are
destroyed and it becomes unflyable.

What is it that your fly-by-wire home built will be able to do that any
modern airplane such as a Cirrus SR22 can't do?

What materials are you going to use to build the airframe of your home
built?

If you encounter significant turbulence, what is the first thing you do
and why?

You've said your airplane can fly at airpeeds between 10 MPH to 100
MPH (11.5 knots to 115 knots). There never has been an airplane that
can do that. Is your Nobel acceptance speech ready?
 
L

Le Chaud Lapin

You've said your airplane can fly at airpeeds between 10 MPH to 100
MPH (11.5 knots to 115 knots). There never has been an airplane that
can do that. Is your Nobel acceptance speech ready?

Is there a Nobel Prize for flight?

-Le Chaud Lapin-
 
In sci.physics Le Chaud Lapin said:
Is there a Nobel Prize for flight?

There would be a Nobel in physics for discovering hitherto unknown
aerodynamics that would allow an airplane to fly over a range of
10 MPH to 100 MPH.

What is it that your fly-by-wire home built will be able to do that any
modern airplane such as a Cirrus SR22 can't do?

What materials are you going to use to build the airframe of your home
built?

If you encounter significant turbulence, what is the first thing you do
and why?

You've said your airplane can fly at airpeeds between 10 MPH to 100
MPH (11.5 knots to 115 knots). There never has been an airplane that
can do that, so how are you going to do it?
 
D

Don Klipstein

Wings don't usually sheer off in mid air collisions.

Typically the airplane gets "bent" enough that the aerodynamics are
destroyed and it becomes unflyable.

What is it that your fly-by-wire home built will be able to do that any
modern airplane such as a Cirrus SR22 can't do?

What materials are you going to use to build the airframe of your home
built?

If you encounter significant turbulence, what is the first thing you do
and why?

You've said your airplane can fly at airpeeds between 10 MPH to 100
MPH (11.5 knots to 115 knots). There never has been an airplane that
can do that. Is your Nobel acceptance speech ready?

I would like to add that 10-100 knots is about 11.5-115 statute miles
per hour, not the other way around.

But I still have yet to hear of aircraft without rotor wings flying and
maintaining altitude and controllability at airspeed both 10 and 100 of
either!

If I had an aircraft other than helicopter/Osprey sort of thing that
flies controllably and maintains altitude at both 10 and 100 MPH, or both
10 and 100 knots, I would be working on a Nobel Prize acceptance speech!

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Le said:
Is there a Nobel Prize for flight?

I seem to think that if a fixed wing aircraft flies and maintains
altitude at 10 MPH or 10 knots airspeed and also flies controllably and
sustainably at 10 times as much airspeed, without requirement of
building with unobtainium, then it has a fair chance of qualifying for one
of the existing categories for Nobel Prize.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

He keeps saying airplane and lighter-than-air, helicopters, and the
Osprey are not airplanes.

Given his demonstrated lack of languages skills, it could well be he
doesn't know what the word "airplane" means.


Usually, though older airplanes, home builts, and LSA's often still
use MPH.


Nowhere. There are areas with maximum speed limits like 200 kts and
250 kts, but no minimums.

In the US, if an airplane has a N number, i.e. is registered, it flys
and there is no discrimination in the airspace.

Oh, and as my father tells me, tell me if he is correct? Build an
experimental and have it fly 200 hours airborne with same pilot and same
owner without interruptions by airframe-damaging crashes? And if most or
even any of those need airspeed of 30 knots or more to maintain altitude
and controllability, then does that mean every cubic yard of airspace over
America require aircraft moving at airspeed 10 knots or slower to have to
worry about colliding with faster aircraft?
Other than landing and taking off, airplanes must be operated 1000 feet
above the highest obstacle within 2000 in congested areas (cities, etc.)
and 500 feet in open water and sparsely populated areas (farm country, etc.).

There are LOTS of airplanes flying between 1500 and 3000 feet AGL on
short flights.

Heck, I once rode a helicopter going about 140-150 miles only 1,000 feet
AGL (mostly with ground within 250 feet of sea level), mostly with
airspeed that I suspect is typical and not at all slow for fixed wing
aircraft used for GA use. As in about or a bit over 100 knots.
All airplanes are REQUIRED to have a pressure altimeters.


He has a good deal on Star Trek shuttle craft engines.

Oh, now I learn something - if an aircraft has GPS and/or radar
altimeter, does it also require a pressure one? If so, is that for
usefulness in areas where there is chance to interact with aircraft that
have pressure altimeters and no other altimeters?
Or is this so that all aircraft can clear mountains (and each other
at the same time?) based on controller instructions (or navigation
maps) that assume adjusted-to-current pressure altimeters, which also
assume that the pilots keep their pressure altimeter settings current then
and there?

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
B

bg_fisted

It would seem that there might be a correlation between degree-of-
catastrohpe and the nature of the construction, mass, velocity...of
the aircraft.

What are you trying to say? That two low-mass, low-velocity aircraft
will result in a "lesser catastrophe"? A mid-air collision between
two aircraft can cause enough damage to compromise their
airworthiness. This is true even for blimps. If a mid-air collisons
damages the airbags, it can result in a loss of buoyancy. In these
cases, the degree-of-catastrophe is correlated to the speed with which
the aircraft hits the ground, it would seem.
IOW, a collision between two light-weight, slow-moving vehicles, which
no exposed moving parts (propeller, jet,..) might be, generally
speaking, less catastrophic than two heavy-weight, fast-moving
vehicles with props, especially if the prop itself participates in the
collision.

How slow does "slow-moving" have to be for you to win this argument?
150 knots? 100? 50? Okay, but didn't you fantasize about flying from
Austin to Montpellier with a stop in Nova Scotia? Do you know how long
that would take at 100 knots? About 2 days...in your single-seat ultra-
lightweight fantasy plane filled with "quad redundant" commodity
parts, and no lavatory? Oh you could of course, add a commodity
toilet, perhaps a commodity bidet if you could work out the commodity
plumbing. Home Depot's got a sale on them. But the prospect of SITTING
alone in an enclosed space for two days straight (without the
opportunity to stand up and stretch) and nothing to look at but the
Atlanic Ocean... I don't think you've thought this fantasy through.

Meanwhile, real people in the real world will buy a comfy seat on a
Boeing 777 to fly from AUS to CDG in just 9 hours. And they don't have
to worry that their commercial jetliner is filled with commodity
parts, flown by a DELL laptop running Windows Vista. The commerical
airlines are not afraid of you, because you have NOTHING that
threatens them.

+fisting stopped
 
B

bg_fisted

fg

Allow me to answer on Le Chaud Lapin's behalf...these are of course,
simply my guesses as to what he would say... he is always welcome to
answer on his own behalf :)

Do you know what a "?" at the end of a sentence means?

If the "?" does not follow a question that I can easily respond to
with obfuscation and hand-waving, or an insult that I can react
indignantly to, then I must ignore the sentence completely.
What is it that your fly-by-wire home built will be able to do that any
modern airplane such as a Cirrus SR22 can't do?

Fail to exist in the real world.
What materials are you going to use to build the airframe of your home
built?

I will build my fully pressurized airframe out of commodity building
materials that can be purchased from Home Depot and Walmart, and
whichever major electronics chain happens to have a sale on Blu-Ray
players (gotta pimp my ride with hi-def entertainment system). These
materials will be commodity, but lightweight, such as tinfoil and
carbon fiber-looking plastic (real carbon fiber would be too
expensive). Any leaks in the airframe will be plugged with spackling
compound. Fiberglass insulation will allow me to maintain a
comfortable temperature inside.
If you encounter significant turbulence, what is the first thing you do
and why?

The first thing I will do is attempt to figure out the transfer
functions for the turbulence in my head. This is how the Blue Angels
do it; it is not the result of thousands of hours of flying as
everyone believes. At the first sign of turbulence, a pilot must think
about the transfer functions (convolution, Fourier, Laplace), work it
out in their head. Don't fight the humps. It's just like riding my
VFR-800 at 240 km/h (150mph US). Most pilots don't seem to understand
how much math is involved in flying. They learn by role. As an
engineer, I am trained to think about the math, to ask "what is really
going on here?" when my aircraft starts to wiggle.

bg
+fisting stopped
 
A

Androcles

krw said:
A mid air collision between two aircraft at any speed generally results
in the aircraft falling out of the sky due to either loss of
aerodynamics (the lift goes away) or controllability..

Oh, the inhumanity of snipping!
 
R

Richard Herring

Don Klipstein said:
Oh, now I learn something - if an aircraft has GPS and/or radar
altimeter, does it also require a pressure one? If so, is that for
usefulness in areas where there is chance to interact with aircraft that
have pressure altimeters and no other altimeters?

All vertical coordination is based on pressure altitudes.
Or is this so that all aircraft can clear mountains (and each other
at the same time?) based on controller instructions

The pilot, not the controller, is always responsible for terrain
clearance.
(or navigation
maps) that assume adjusted-to-current pressure altimeters, which also
assume that the pilots keep their pressure altimeter settings current then
and there?

Yes, but not entirely. In some areas, "regional pressure settings" are
used: that's a pessimistic forecast of the pressure over some region for
the next hour - so for that period you are guaranteed to be higher over
the terrain than the altimeter is indicating.

Also, above some defined "transition altitude" (the actual value varies
from place to place) altitude is defined by "flight levels", which are
effective altitudes (in hundreds of feet) based on setting the altimeter
to standard pressure (1013 mb, whatever that is in inches.)

Provided you're high enough to be guaranteed clear of the mountains,
it's only the relative altitude of nearby aircraft that matters, and
using standard pressure means you don't have the problem of constantly
resetting the altimeter (and getting the data to reset it to, in remote
areas.)

[this is from a European perspective - there may be some differences in
US practice]
 
R

Richard Herring

In message
Le said:
In message
 With typical GPS device, it is not difficult to
write software that alerts the pilot if these rules are viloated [or
about to be violated].
Sure. Just a SMOP (in your universe).  What do you propose that the
pilot should *do*, when he receives this alert?

Take corrective action.

And what action would that be?

Do you know what the current rules for collision avoidance require?

Remember, the sky is full of other people flying your wonder-plane,
making their own uncooperative autonomous decisions. There may be no
"corrective actions" available that don't break the rules and endanger
other aircraft.

Then evidently you didn't understand it. Does the phrase "autonomous
swarm" mean anything to you?
Hitting the ground hard would hurt either way. But I imagine that,
for give masses M1 and M2 of two aircraft, not all mid-air collisions
would be equally catastrophic.

So the good news is that if the mass ratio is large enough, only one set
of passengers gets killed?
Speed of each machine would matter
[which implies that super-slow flight would be possible],

"Implies"? Which part of the laws of aerodynamics got repealed?
as well as
their individual structure. Also, for a given seat configuration,
structural strength to weight ratio would probably matter.

Unobtainium.
 
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