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difference between bipolar and mosfet

J

John Fields

Now the OP will be confused by another over-simplification. It depends
on whether the FET is of the enhancement or depletion mode type. Your
statement is correct for enhancement mode FETs, but wrong for
depletion mode ones. Depletion mode FETs are 'normally on' and will
conduct fully with *no* applied gate voltage. You have to apply a
*negative* voltage to the gate to moderate the drain current. Enough
negative voltage will cut-off the drain current altogether. No doubt
*you* know this, but it should be pointed out to the OP.

---
Have you paid any attention at all to the subject line? It reads:

"difference between bipolar and mosfet", not "How many different
flavors of FETs are there?"

As far as confusion goes, I'm sure that your refusal to KISS have done
little to alleviate the OP's.
 
J

John Fields

Yet another oversimplification. The bias requirements are *totally*
different and should not be studied by means of comparison with BJTs.
As Kevin Aylward said, it's better to nip these misconceptions in the
bud before they become entrenched views.
 
M

Miles Harris

Why even bring that up?

In view of the fact that you brought up gate capacitance, it was
entirely apposite, IMV.
it's not germane to the discussion and it's
not true. Usable output may be obtained, depending on the
application, if the gate capacitance is only partially charged and
discharged.

The voltage gain of a FET is lousy compared to a BJT at the best of
times. If you're only going to paritally charge/discharge Cg., then
you'll only exacerbate that failing and be lucky to get any useful
gain at all.
 
M

Miles Harris

Have you paid any attention at all to the subject line? It reads:

"difference between bipolar and mosfet", not "How many different
flavors of FETs are there?"

The subject line refers to MOSFETs, certainly. However, in the body of
his original post, the OP refers to FETs., which could just be
innocently (but wrongly) intended as an abbreviation for MOSFET, or it
could actually mean JFET. We don't know if the OP knows the difference
between JFETs and MOSFETs, so I think it's entirely appropriate to
point out they are different devices with different characteristics.
Had this not been pointed out, the OP might well assume that
everything that he has read here WRT to MOSFETs applies equally well
to JFETs - and of course it doesn't!
As far as confusion goes, I'm sure that your refusal to KISS have done
little to alleviate the OP's.

Your approach would lead the OP into a false sense of competence over
his grasp of the subject. At least now he has a much better idea of
the scope of this surprisingly complicated question and if he trawls
through all the replies and studies them intently, he will be a better
man for it. Plus he will have no unpleasant surprises further down the
line in his studies.
 
M

Miles Harris

Also, the characteristics of these devices is completely different. A
BJT has a current gain which is exponential in voltage (or somewhat
linear in current), whereas current through a FET has a quadratic
relationship to gate voltage in the active region.

More like hyperbolic, actually.
 
M

Miles Harris

Well, Kevin seems to subscribe to the policy that one should learn to
run, then walk. That is, first throw Ebers-Moll at a newbie then,
later, beta. If you agree with that philosophy, then I'll have to
disagree with you both.

Then presumably you're the type of person who tells his kids Father
Christmas exists. All very nice and well-intentioned, but not fair on
the child when he finds out the real truth and starts to question
everything he's ever been told. I'd sooner be straight with people
right from the start.
 
R

Robert Monsen

Miles said:
More like hyperbolic, actually.

Really? What formula do you use to predict Id? The one I use for the
active region is

Id = k * (Vgs - Vgs(th))^2

where

k = Ids(on) / (Vgs(on) - Vgs(th))^2

Since k and Vgs(th) are constant for a given FET, Id is quadratic in
Vgs, right?

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.
 
J

John Fields

Then presumably you're the type of person who tells his kids Father
Christmas exists.

---
Beta doesn't exist? That's news to me!
---
All very nice and well-intentioned, but not fair on
the child when he finds out the real truth and starts to question
everything he's ever been told.

---
I rather doubt whether you have the "real truth" on tap to hand out,
and all children should be taught to question everything they've been
told no matter how much you may cherish the truth you think you're
being so benevolent in bestowing on them.
---
 
J

John Fields

The subject line refers to MOSFETs, certainly. However, in the body of
his original post, the OP refers to FETs., which could just be
innocently (but wrongly) intended as an abbreviation for MOSFET, or it
could actually mean JFET. We don't know if the OP knows the difference
between JFETs and MOSFETs, so I think it's entirely appropriate to
point out they are different devices with different characteristics.
Had this not been pointed out, the OP might well assume that
everything that he has read here WRT to MOSFETs applies equally well
to JFETs - and of course it doesn't!

---
Then, in fact, you were remiss in not further including _all_ FETs in
your "exposition" and expounding on them at length. After all, why
leave any tern ustoned?
---
Your approach would lead the OP into a false sense of competence over
his grasp of the subject.

---
My _carefully measured_ approach would allow the OP an initial grasp
of the subject matter which could later be broadened, if he chose to,
without the undue confusion forced on him by your rather heavy-handed
insistence that he eat more than he asked for.
---
At least now he has a much better idea of
the scope of this surprisingly complicated question and if he trawls
through all the replies and studies them intently, he will be a better
man for it. Plus he will have no unpleasant surprises further down the
line in his studies.

---
The point is that there really was no reason for him to have to trawl
through anything until you started pumping out your bilge. Plus, if
you think that you've shielded him from any unpleasant surprises
farther down the road because of your "contribution", I suggest you
have another think.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

I dont see johns orginal post here

I most certainly dont.

Not at all. One need only state that the collector current is a direct
function of base emitter voltage, and that when this voltage is applied,
there is some base current, which is typically much less than the
collector current.

This correct description is no more complicated that giving the *wrong*
base current controlled one.

I don't agree with a philosophy of giving false technical information,
if the correct information is just as easy to give.
Then presumably you're the type of person who tells his kids Father
Christmas exists. All very nice and well-intentioned, but not fair on
the child when he finds out the real truth and starts to question
everything he's ever been told. I'd sooner be straight with people
right from the start.

Yep. It is very rare that I think white lies are the way to go. In this
particular case, kids should informed from the outset that ideas such as
santa claus, god, elves, etc are simply made up fantasies.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

John said:
---
Then, in fact, you were remiss in not further including _all_ FETs in
your "exposition" and expounding on them at length. After all, why
leave any tern ustoned?
---


---
My _carefully measured_ approach would allow the OP an initial grasp
of the subject matter which could later be broadened, if he chose to,
without the undue confusion forced on him by your rather heavy-handed
insistence that he eat more than he asked for.

Your approch gave an inital *wrong* grasp of the subject, i.e. no grasp
at all.

No. There is no reason for not giving a *correct* description if that
correct description is simple.

To wit:

The bipolar transistor is a voltage controlled device,. Its collector
current is a direct function of its base emitter voltage. Incidentally
to this process, the base terminal requires current in order for the
transistor to work correctly.

If the reader can not understand such a simple idea, then there would be
no point in giving any description at all.

Plus, if
you think that you've shielded him from any unpleasant surprises
farther down the road because of your "contribution", I suggest you
have another think.

If you think that you have helped by reinforcing erroneous notions on
how the bipolar transistor operates, I suggest you have another think.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

No. They are a transconductance device because applying a voltage across
the base emitter junction injects carriers from the emitter to the base
*region*. This charge essentially *all* flows out of the collecter, not
the base terminal.

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/info/comp/active/BiPolar/page2.html
that charge changing
the electrical properties of the base material to more closely
approximate those of the collector and emitter. That is, when charge
is injected into the base-to-emitter diode of a PNP transistor, the
"N" type base material becomes more and more "P" like as more and more
current is forced through it, with the result that the transistor
starts looking more and more like a single piece of low-resistance "P"
type material as more and more current flows through the
base-to-emitter junction.

This is not an accurate description of the bipolar transistor. This
description is more relevant to operation of the mosfet. The npn
junction simply does not act like a slap of N type. If it did, base
current would be huge.
That being the case, collector current will
flow when base current does, and will increase with increasing base
current until the transistor goes into saturation. Of course it's the
base-to-emitter voltage which makes the whole thing happen,

Indeed it is.
but what
_I_ think is misleading is to burden an inquirer with too much detail
too soon.

This is not too much detail at all. Its can't get any simpler. vbe
controls the collector/emitter current. End of story.
Hence, initially describing the BJT in terms of beta and
leaving out the transconductance part alleviates the confusion which
will

No. No. No. It most certainly doesn't.

Referring to the bipolar as "a current controlled device" causes never
ending confusion that is a bloody nightmare to correct. This is a case
in point. You yourself are trying to put forward the idea that that idea
has merit. It doesn't.
inevitably arise if the BJT and the FET are both described in
terms of transconductance.

Since this is the actual truth to the matter, this is what should be
said. Lying doesn't help one iota.

. After all, the question wasn't "How are
the BJT and the FET alike?" it was "How are they different?".

They are different, in part, in that the bipolar requires base current,
but that this base current is simply a nuisance.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
M

Miles Harris

I brought up gate capacitance to illustrate that there's no ohmic
contact between the gate and the channel, not to change the direction
of the thread for the pupose of showing off.

It can't by any stretch of the imagination be described as "showing
off" since this is all pretty fundamental stuff - and fundamentals are
terribly important. Would you happily build a house on a flawed
foundation?
Well, that really depends on what's meant by 'partially' and what's
meant by 'useful', wouldn't you agree?

Nitpicking isn't going to help the OP.
 
M

Miles Harris

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 17:05:58 -0800, Robert Monsen

If you actually measure, in the real world, a real FET's Vgs against
Id at several points up to Idss., you'll find the curve you get is
closer to hyperbolic than to quadratic. Your method may well be
arithmetically correct, but like so many things involving maths in
electronics, it's simply an approximation with an inevitable degree of
inaccuracy.
 
M

Miles Harris

Beta doesn't exist? That's news to me!

The beta model isn't even suitable for under-tens to study. Sooner or
later the OP will discover it falls apart in certain circumstances.
Then some kind soul will introduce him to Ebers-Moll and the
transconductance model and he will damn your hide for spinning him
such snake-oil early in his studies.
 
J

John Fields

No. They are a transconductance device because applying a voltage across
the base emitter junction injects carriers from the emitter to the base
*region*. This charge essentially *all* flows out of the collecter, not
the base terminal.

---
Not no. From:

http://searchsmallbizit.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid44_gci214200,00.html

"Transconductance is an expression of the performance of a bipolar
transistor or field-effect transistor (FET). In general, the larger
the transconductance figure for a device, the greater the gain
(amplification) it is capable of delivering, when all other factors
are held constant.

Formally, for a bipolar device, transconductance is defined as the
ratio of the change in collector current to the change in base voltage
over a defined, arbitrarily small interval on the
collector-current-versus-base-voltage curve. For an FET,
transconductance is the ratio of the change in drain current to the
change in gate voltage over a defined, arbitrarily small interval on
the drain-current-versus-gate-voltage curve.

The symbol for transconductance is gm. The unit is the siemens, the
same unit that is used for direct-current (DC) conductance.

If dI represents a change in collector or drain current caused by a
small change in base or gate voltage dE, then the transconductance is
approximately:

gm = dI / dE

As the size of the interval approaches zero -- that is, the change in
base or gate voltage becomes smaller and smaller -- the value of dI /
dE approaches the slope of a line tangent to the curve at a specific
point. The slope of this line represents the theoretical
transconductance of a bipolar transistor for a given base voltage and
collector current, or the theoretical transconductance of an FET for a
given gate voltage and drain current."

---
This is not an accurate description of the bipolar transistor. This
description is more relevant to operation of the mosfet. The npn
junction simply does not act like a slap of N type. If it did, base
current would be huge.

---
yes, were it not for the current limiting resistance external to the
base the base current could become huge. After all, the base-emitter
diode is just that, a forward biased diode operating on the far side
of the VI knee.

The intent, in both devices, is the same. That is to cause a
non-conductive region in a semiconductor to become conductive. In a
MOSFET it's accomplished by treating the channel like the plate of a
capacitor and making it _seem_ like it's composed of the same material
as the drain and the source by influencing the charge distribution in
it using the gate metalization as the other plate of the capacitor,
while in a BJT it's accomplished by forcing dynamic charge into the
base ["base region" if you like ;)] and using that charge flow to make
it seem like the base region material is becoming more and more like
the emitter and collector material as the base current increases.
---
Indeed it is.


This is not too much detail at all. Its can't get any simpler. vbe
controls the collector/emitter current. End of story.

---
Hardly. Here this newbie asks "What makes a BJT different from a
FET?" and you reply "If you put a voltage across the base and emitter
terminals of a BJT current will flow between the collector and
emitter, while if you put a voltage across the gate and source
terminals of a FET current will flow between the drain and the
source." So, while your description may be true, its utter simplicity
leads the newb to think they're the same same thing with differently
named terminals.

Here is my original exchange with Skeleton Man:

<QUOTE>
so if I'm to understand correctly.. a bi-polar will pass current between
collector and emitter when a voltage is applied to the base ?

---
Essentially, yes. But, the voltage applied to the base must force
charge through the base-emitter junction before collector current can
flow.
---
and a fet will do
a simmilar thing only doesn't require a current ? (at whichever terminal
corresponds to a base on a bipolar)

---
Yes, but it still requires current to charge the gate capacitance.
However, once that capacitor is charged up, current can flow through
the drain-to-source channel with no further current required into the
gate.
<END QUOTE>


Do you have a problem with that?
---

No. No. No. It most certainly doesn't.

---
Yes. you're right. That was poorly stated. See my original reply,
above, to the OP for clarification.
---
Referring to the bipolar as "a current controlled device" causes never
ending confusion that is a bloody nightmare to correct. This is a case
in point. You yourself are trying to put forward the idea that that idea
has merit. It doesn't.

---
The problem which arises here, I think, is that the change in base
voltage required to affect a change in collector current is so tiny
that it becomes easier to consider what happens on the other side of
the change in base voltage. That is, the collector-to emitter current
change due to the base-to-emitter current change.
 
J

John Fields

The beta model isn't even suitable for under-tens to study. Sooner or
later the OP will discover it falls apart in certain circumstances.

---
And in others is eminently useful. In the real world, for instance,
what's important when driving, say, a relay is the beta available and
forcing that beta to a value which will never change regardless of
tghe environment into which the circuitry is placed.
---
Then some kind soul will introduce him to Ebers-Moll and the
transconductance model and he will damn your hide for spinning him
such snake-oil early in his studies.

---
You obviously have a reading comprehension problem if you _assume
that's what I did. Here is the exchange to which you seem to have
taken exception:


<QUOTE>
so if I'm to understand correctly.. a bi-polar will pass current between
collector and emitter when a voltage is applied to the base ?

---
Essentially, yes. But, the voltage applied to the base must force
charge through the base-emitter junction before collector current can
flow.
---
and a fet will do
a simmilar thing only doesn't require a current ? (at whichever terminal
corresponds to a base on a bipolar)

---
Yes, but it still requires current to charge the gate capacitance.
However, once that capacitor is charged up, current can flow through
the drain-to-source channel with no further current required into the
gate.
<END QUOTE>


Can you point to where I advocated the beta model for him to study?
 
J

Jamie

Kevin said:
I dont see johns orginal post here




I most certainly dont.



Not at all. One need only state that the collector current is a direct
function of base emitter voltage, and that when this voltage is applied,
there is some base current, which is typically much less than the
collector current.

This correct description is no more complicated that giving the *wrong*
base current controlled one.




I don't agree with a philosophy of giving false technical information,
if the correct information is just as easy to give.




Yep. It is very rare that I think white lies are the way to go. In this
particular case, kids should informed from the outset that ideas such as
santa claus, god, elves, etc are simply made up fantasies.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
I would question your idea about GOD, but are you
really trying to me that Santa Claus is a myth ?
don't tell it so! who the hell has been eating
those cookies and drinking that milk then! :)
 
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