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Cooling LEDs with big chunk of aluminium?

Hello, We have four narrow rectangular LED PCB's, each one comprising three 1W LEDs. These are double sided PCB's with thermal vias to the bottom layer.

Each PCB is mounted on one of the four faces of a vertical, solid aluminium bar...so we have light shining North, East, South & West from the aluminium bar, so to speak.

Now, unfortunatley, the LED PCB's totally cover the vertical faces of the aluminium bar, so unfortunately the only bare metal surface of aluminium that can contribute to heat transfer by convection is the top 1 inch square part of this vertical aluminium bar.

As you can see, this big aluminium bar is mostly a waste of time, since most of its vertical sides are covered by the LED PCB's themselves....which impedes convection from the metal sides of the aluminium bar.
Anyway, do you believe that a better heatsinking solution would be to simply remove the solid , vertical aluminium bar, and have the four LED PCB's standing vertical, with their copper clad bottom layers providing the convection surface?(...i.e more metal surface area but far less metal volume)
(The bottom copper is obviously covered in solder-mask, as it must be to prevent oxidation of the copper......do you think that the solder mask layer will ruin the effective convection of heat from the bottom of these PCB's.?)

Is there any other material (other than solder mask) that we can cover the bottom copper layer with to aid convection more?....what about covering it with solder?, -eg as in some EMS's will cover bare copper pads with solder
(as in HASL = Hot Air Solder Layering).

Anyway, to summarize, for cooling LEDs, what do you choose.......A Big volume of metal, or much, much smaller volume of metal but more metal surface area?
 
Even without exposed surfaces the aluminum bar is acting as a sink... Put some additional 'fins' on top and it will help increase the surface area...

Have you considered 1" square aluminum tubing with internal fins and forced air down the center?

what do you choose.......A Big volume of metal, or much, much smaller volume of metal but more metal surface area?

Either or, that provides adequate cooling properties for the application...

do you think that the solder mask layer will ruin the effective convection of heat from the bottom of these PCB

It is counterproductive...

Is there any other material (other than solder mask) that we can cover the bottom copper layer with to aid convection more?

Thermal 'grease' and a slower oxidizing coating like ENIG or HASL won't hurt...
 
putting additional fins on top will make it more expensive, and if we can get better thermal performance by removing the aluminium and just having the back layer of the PCBs convecting the heat away, then we'll just do that.

But the question was whather or not this really is better than having the covered-up chunk of aluminium in the middle of the PCBs.
 
Take surface temp readings of both options and see what performs better, in the installed application...

And then consider the hollow tubing as I suggested...
 
i would have thought it was obvius that getting rid of the aluminium bar would allow cooler running?

ie just let the surface area of the backs of the pcbs do the convecting.
 
i would have thought it was obvius that getting rid of the aluminium bar would allow cooler running?

ie just let the surface area of the backs of the pcbs do the convecting.

If it's so 'obvious' why are you asking?

There is more to dispersing heat and cooling then simply surface area...
 
i thought heatsinks transfer heat mainly by convection, and convection depends on surface area.

So surface area , ie bare surface area, is king? right?
 
convection depends on surface area.

That is one factor yes...

So surface area , ie bare surface area, is king? right?

No, not right... That is just a generic generalization, ignoring other variables... A 10 square foot sheet of 1/2" plywood is a horrible heat sink even though it has a large surface area... Material and surface coatings can improve or reduce the efficiency of a sink, as can ironically color among other factors...

Read this page over a few times, maybe it will shed some light...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_sink

In addition to my repeated suggestion on square tubing, how about an over the counter extrusion.like this...

Square+Extrusion.jpg
 
thanks....sorry i was referring to aluminium when i spoke of surface area being king

Do you agree?

Surface area is king?
 
Surface area is king?

I can repeat it again for you NO! It's one factor!

Did you bother to take a few minutes to read the link I posted? Go down to the paragraph that starts with "In general, the more surface area a heat sink has, the better it works.[2] However, this is not always true."
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
thanks....sorry i was referring to aluminium when i spoke of surface area being king

Do you agree?

Surface area is king?

Imagine unrolling 30 metres of aluminium foil and connecting your device to one corner of it.

Will it make any difference if I cut the roll in half? or even into a small square?

The answer is NO.

In order to take advantage to the surface area you need to ensure that heat can be distributed to the extremities of the heatsink.

This is why, for large heatsinks, you will find that the material is quite thick near the device, but has relatively thinner fins.
 
thanks,
right, so thickness to transport the heat to the surface from where it will be convected.

So surface area IS king...but you need thickness to get the heat to the surface area in the first place..(?)

...by the way, we are convecting into internal ambient .......our entire enclosure is plastic /perspex, and so we rely on the convection currents to brush against the plastic, and then transfer heat to external ambient , as we have no vent holes.

Are we stuffed?
 
So surface area IS king...but you need thickness to get the heat to the surface area in the first place..(?)

You can say/repeat it a million times, but it will still not make it a fact...

Again I will asked have your even bothered to read the page I sent you to? I'll tell you what, just for you I'll quote the entire paragraph I 'suggested' you read previously, since the less than subtle hint went over your head...

In general, the more surface area a heat sink has, the better it works.[2] However, this is not always true. The concept of a pin fin heat sink is to try to pack as much surface area into a given volume as possible.[2] As well, it works well in any orientation. Kordyban[2] has compared the performance of a pin fin and a straight fin heat sink of similar dimensions. Although the pin fin has 194 cm2 surface area while the straight fin has 58 cm2, the temperature difference between the heat sink base and the ambient air for the pin fin is 50 °C. For the straight fin it was 44 °C or 6 °C better than the pin fin. Pin fin heat sink performance is significantly better than straight fins when used in their intended application where the fluid flows axially along the pins (see figure 17) rather than only tangentially across the pins.

Did you comprehend that? The 58 cm² surface area heat sink OUTPERFORMED the 194cm² surface area heat sink, in a real test...

Again surface area is NOT KING, it's simply a variable in the equation, and as was show in the above example even with 3+ times the surface area, the other variables involved totally obliterated it's ability to come out on top...
 
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(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
convected.

Or radiated.

Other factors include the nature of the surface, the fluid it's operating in (air, vacuum, oil, water, etc), the ambient temperature, the orientation of the heatsink, the velocity of the fluid, nearby sources of radiant heat, the thermal conductivity and inertia of the heatsink material, the coupling of the device to the heatsink, and probably a whole lot more that don't come to mind immediately.
 
...by the way, we are convecting into internal ambient .......our entire enclosure is plastic /perspex, and so we rely on the convection currents to brush against the plastic, and then transfer heat to external ambient , as we have no vent holes.

Are we stuffed?

Not necessarily, but the cooling problem is significantly worsened. In general, you will need a much larger heat sink with more emphasis on the heat pipe (thick transport medium) to move heat away from the LED than on fin area. You might need to use a copper heat sink and the air volume in the enclosure will have to be increased, a lot!

By the way, you have now managed to inadvertently irritate a pet peeve of many forum members by delivering game changing critical design specifications late in the process instead of in your original post. The reasonable assumption that everyone was operating under was a heat sink operating in free air. :rolleyes:

Here's a video tutorial on thermal design.

http://www.eevblog.com/2010/08/15/eevblog-105-electronics-thermal-heatsink-design-tutorial/
 
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Cocacola i take your point.

Your paragraph made absolute sense to me and is intuitively so, but doesnt really aid the problem i have.

At the moment i have only 1 inch square of bare metal.........and i am wondering, with such little surface area, hardly any, then really i need to re-think the heatsink design.......................because i havent got pin fin, or flat fin, or any fin at all.
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Are we stuffed?

Possibly.

What power are these LEDs operating at?

How big is the box?

How thick is the perspex?

What is its thermal conductivity?

Can you bolt the case to a heatsink? (in a way that the internal heatsink has reasonable coupling to the mount?)

In your case, it's not surface area, but coupling that is king. You need to find a suitable way of achieving the best coupling between the device generating the heat and the external ambient environment.
 
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