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CMOS inverter output to Biopolar

B

Boki

Pooh Bear 寫�:
nmos isn't bipolar.

What are you talking about ?

Graham


A cmos inverter ( nmos ( FET ) + pmos ( FET) ), its output connects to
a bipolar's Base.

Best regards,
Boki.
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Pooh Bear ???



A cmos inverter ( nmos ( FET ) + pmos ( FET) ), its output connects to
a bipolar's Base.

In other words, to an NPN BJT's base, with the emitter tied to ground?
If so, that explains the 0.7V.

Jon
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jonathan said:
In other words, to an NPN BJT's base, with the emitter tied to ground?
If so, that explains the 0.7V.

Only if the inverter is always sourcing current / can't pull to ground. We do
not know this level of detail though.

Graham
 
B

Boki

Jonathan Kirwan 寫�:
In other words, to an NPN BJT's base, with the emitter tied to ground?
If so, that explains the 0.7V.

Jon

You hit it.

Boki.
 
B

Boki

John Larkin 寫�:
Google "resistor."

John


It seems that what ever put this resisotr in base or emitter, we can't
get full range ( 0v~3.3v) in inverter's output, if we use npn/pnp as
next stage ... , am I right?

Best regards,
Boki.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Boki wrote...
Jonathan Kirwan

bipolar, not biopolar, good, now we're getting somewhere.
You hit it.

OK, use two resistors. Yawn. Either this is really boring, or
it's my bedtime. Or perhaps both? Yawn. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Jonathan Kirwan ???


You hit it.

When your CMOS output is high, it is sourcing current into the BJT's
base. If this is the output of a micro, chances are that the
effective source resistance is in the rough 100 ohm range (50-500
wouldn't surprise me at all.) So this limits the current into the
base. However, the base will only rise up to about one diode drop,
though it may be more than .7V due to the neighborhood of 10mA or so.

This is not surprising. Think of the CMOS output itself as being two
switches like this:

: +3.3V
: |
: |
: o
: \
: \
: o
: |
: \
: / 100
: \
: /
: |
: +-------> CMOS OUTPUT
: |
: \
: / 40
: \
: /
: |
: o
: /
: /
: o
: |
: |
: gnd

where exactly one of the two switches is closed at any one time. I
specifically chose to use two different resistor values in order to
highlight the fact that the low-side FET usually has somewhat lower
resistance than the high-side FET -- although this is not necessarily
the case and some CMOS outputs are actually configured in the opposite
way (so that the sourcing side is actually beefier.)

Now, if you imagine this connected to your BJT, it looks like:

: +3.3V
: |
: |
: o
: \
: \
: o
: |
: \
: / 100
: \ ,------>
: / |
: | |/c
: +-------|
: | |>e
: \ |
: / 40 |
: \ gnd
: /
: |
: o
: /
: /
: o
: |
: |
: gnd

Now, when the upper switch is closed (the lower one open, of course),
current flows from +3.3, via the 100 ohm resistor, through the diode
which is the base-emitter diode of the BJT. The current in the BJT's
base rises exponentially with slight changes in the base voltage (at
about 60mV per 10-fold current change. So quite quickly the 100 ohm
resistor becomes the limiting factor. The voltage across the base-
emitter junction will rise to some 0.75V or so and the current will be
about (3.3 - .75)/100 or about 25.5mA. Actually, for 3.3V CMOS, the
actual current will probably be less than that. But in any case, the
base emitter voltage won't be a lot different from 0.75V.

Anyway, a resistor as others have said makes sense to further limit
the current. It's not likely that you need that much base current and
it's probably outside the specs for the CMOS, anyway. With a resistor
going from the CMOS output to the BJT base, you still won't see the
voltage at the base vary much from 0.7V. But, at least, the CMOS
output will then be permitted to be much higher than before -- much
closer to the value you expect from it.

Jon
 
J

John - KD5YI

Boki said:
John Larkin 寫�:





It seems that what ever put this resisotr in base or emitter, we can't
get full range ( 0v~3.3v) in inverter's output, if we use npn/pnp as
next stage ... , am I right?

Best regards,
Boki.

No. You can not get full range unless the resistor was put in by what ever
the base or emitter wants. An inverter will use the npn/pnp for the previous
stage if the next stage does not work.

Can you post an ascii schematic showing what you have?

John
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Only if the inverter is always sourcing current / can't pull to ground. We do
not know this level of detail though.

I assumed Boki was setting the CMOS output so that it was at about
3.3V before being connected to a BJT NPN base and that he was
wondering why the output suddenly went to 0.7V or so, instead of
staying at 3.3V where he was thinking it should be. One gets into
their head the idea that a 3.3V output is supposed to put out 3.3V, no
matter what. Not realizing that there are times when a very slightly
deeper understanding is required.

Jon
 
P

Pooh Bear

Boki said:
John Larkin 寫�:


It seems that what ever put this resisotr in base or emitter, we can't
get full range ( 0v~3.3v) in inverter's output, if we use npn/pnp as
next stage

Why not ?
... , am I right?

I doubt it.

Graham
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

When your CMOS output is high, it is sourcing current into the BJT's
base. If this is the output of a micro, chances are that the
effective source resistance is in the rough 100 ohm range (50-500
wouldn't surprise me at all.)

Which is hugely wasteful of current ( power ).

Boki would do well to read the current thread 'transistor switch' here.

Graham
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jonathan said:
I assumed Boki was setting the CMOS output so that it was at about
3.3V before being connected to a BJT NPN base and that he was
wondering why the output suddenly went to 0.7V or so, instead of
staying at 3.3V where he was thinking it should be. One gets into
their head the idea that a 3.3V output is supposed to put out 3.3V, no
matter what. Not realizing that there are times when a very slightly
deeper understanding is required.

I follow you. I was puzzled by his comment that the output 'sticks' at 0.7V. I
though maybe he meant despite being on or off. Usual problem with Boki English.
That would explain his post.

Boki's not aware that there is effectively a 'hidden' resistor inside the inverter.

It makes me cringe to see the lack of knowledge of basics so prevalent today.

Graham
 
L

Le Chaud Lapin

Winfield said:
Boki wrote...

If it was bipolar you were using I'd say, add a resistor.
But since you're using biopolar, you have to use a neuron.
Just got back from gaming and drinking with coworkers, so this is
especially funny right now. (Boki's "I don't know what a neuron is"
makes it even funnier.)

LOL!

-Le Chaud Lapin-
 
B

Boki

Winfield said:
Boki wrote...

bipolar, not biopolar, good, now we're getting somewhere.


OK, use two resistors. Yawn. Either this is really boring, or
it's my bedtime. Or perhaps both? Yawn. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

base : emitter = 2 : 1

Right?
 
P

Pooh Bear

Boki said:
base : emitter = 2 : 1

Right?

You mean should the resistance of the 'base resistor' be twice the
value of the 'emitter resistor' - Not very likely !

Did you by any chance work in a former life as a cryptographer Boki ?

Please read the thread in this group called " transistor switch ". It
will explain all.

Graham
 
B

Boki

Pooh Bear 寫�:
You mean should the resistance of the 'base resistor' be twice the
value of the 'emitter resistor' - Not very likely !

Did you by any chance work in a former life as a cryptographer Boki ?

Please read the thread in this group called " transistor switch ". It
will explain all.

Graham

Very sorry, almos asleep.

I mean:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1641/2018/1600/inverter.png

and I get:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1641/2018/1600/swing.png

No full swing, unless very large resistor, am I right?

Best regards,
Boki.
 
B

Boki

Le Chaud Lapin 寫�:
Just got back from gaming and drinking with coworkers, so this is
especially funny right now. (Boki's "I don't know what a neuron is"
makes it even funnier.)

LOL!

-Le Chaud Lapin-

which university ... = = ...
 
P

Pooh Bear

Boki said:
Pooh Bear 寫�:


Very sorry, almos asleep.

I mean:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1641/2018/1600/inverter.png

This is to drive an led - right ?

You do not need R2.

R4 should be chosen according to the required led current, say 330 ohms for
about 3mA. The led of course goes in series with R4.

R6 can be increased in value to save power drain ( currently it 'wastes'
about 1 mA - I suggest maybe 22k ).
and I get:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1641/2018/1600/swing.png

No full swing, unless very large resistor, am I right?

I'm surprised you get as much swing in fact. You don't want R2 for this
application.

Graham
 
B

Boki

Pooh Bear 寫�:
This is to drive an led - right ?

You do not need R2.

R4 should be chosen according to the required led current, say 330 ohms for
about 3mA. The led of course goes in series with R4.

R6 can be increased in value to save power drain ( currently it 'wastes'
about 1 mA - I suggest maybe 22k ).


I'm surprised you get as much swing in fact. You don't want R2 for this
application.

Graham

remove R2, I got it, thanks.

but it seems that I still have to use more than 500Kohm to get > 3V
swing.

am I right?

If I use a MOS, it is easy to reach this specification without any
resistor.

am I right?

Best regards,
Boki.
 
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