clueless politicians

[Scott A Crosby]

Absolutely sure (so is the DOE, it's their number). and that's enough
biodiesel to replace gasoline usage as well as diesel. it's algae, remember.

Ok. Thanks. I've read it and I'll trust the DoE claim that
productivity of algae is 30x the best palm crop.

http://www.monkeymind.net/test/biodiesel/article_alge.html

However, from here:

We found that at NREL's yield rates, 11,000 square miles (2.82
million hectares) of algae ponds would be needed to replace all
petroleum transportation fuels with biodiesel. At the cost of
$60,000 per hectare, that would work out to roughly $169 billion,
to build the farms.


The operating costs (including power consumption, labor, chemicals,
and fixed capital costs (taxes, maintenance, insurance,
depreciation, and return on investment) worked out to $12,000 per
hectare. That would equate to $50.7 billion per year for all the
algae farms, to yield all the oil feedstock necessary for the
entire country. Compare that to the more than $100 billion the US
spends each year just on purchasing crude oil from foreign
countries.


This strikes me as a bit suspicious. If one goes by these numbers,
that implies that a 400 billion dollar investment (200 billion to
build the farms, 4x50 billion to run it) would pay for itself in 4
years, in foreign imports alone.

If this is true, then why aren't biofuels used on a massive scale
already?

Scott

 

[Steve Spence]

politicians, oil company lobby, in each others pockets ......

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

The present day conflict has virtually nothing to do with oil and everything
to do with 'myths' as old as 3000 years.

One religion believes they are God's chosen people and that 'their' plot of
land was promised to them by God. Another believes theirs is the only true
religion and that governments should be clerical governments based on that
religion and that killing those who do not believe in that religion is a
good idea. This mix of zealots makes for some nasty fighting with or
without oil. Oil just provides the wealth for nastier weapons.

At least you had the balls to drag the Jews into this.

I was hankering to ride you for that anti Islamic link you posted.

It would have been no better than to drag some anti-Semitic link on to
this board.

Best, Dan.

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

Don't be silly. How much of your time do you spend at work? That much of
your riches is your life. Steal a dollar from a poor working man, and you
have stolen an hour of his life.

Yes, my life is an easy one too. And I haven't forgotten that some
Chinese children/slaves make it so.

Best, Dan.

 

[Don W.]

At least you had the balls to drag the Jews into this.

I was hankering to ride you for that anti Islamic link you posted.

It would have been no better than to drag some anti-Semitic link on to
this board.

Best, Dan.

Truth is truth no matter where you find it or how politically incorrect it
happens to be. There are many muslims throughout the world who claim the
terrorists, kidnappers and hijackers are not true muslims. There are many
Jews in Israel who deplore the mistreatment of Palestinians and occupation
of the West Bank. I haven't seen anyone dispute the facts presented on the
"anti Islamic" web site, although any discriminating browser should easily
see that the interpretations are one-sided. I DO have a problem with a
religion that is so intolerant as to allow for the killing of 'infidels' in
it's holy scriptures. Islam plays a role in the India/Pakistan dispute, the
Arab/Israeli dispute, the Chechnya/Russian conflict, the Abu Sayef and MILF
in the Philippines as well as ethnic problems in Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia.
Anyone who believes that Islam is a religion of peace is unwilling to see
the whole truth.

SEH seems not to be the most appropriate place to discuss religion,
international relations, economics or politics, but there are some brilliant
people here and some seem to insist on arguing those issues here.

The issues of Israel and the 'Palestinians' and Arab/Islamic hatred of the
West are mighty tough issues. When it comes to killing, can anyone be
right? Whether or not you love Judahism, it is likely Israel would be
ethnically 'cleansed' of Jews without support of the U.S. and without
maintaining about a 3 to 1 kill ratio of Palestinians to Jews. AND you
gotta believe that method of survival garners one hella big bunch of bad
karma! If that's the way a people must survive, that should tell them
something.

Now what do you do? Do you allow the Jews to be slaughtered? Do you reward
terrorists (who send bombers into crowded restaurants) by listening to their
grievances? What makes the Jews believe that the collateral damage they
allow when blowing up the car of a militant Palestinian leader is better
than the suicide bomber on a crowded bus? It's just a mess and there's no
great solution. The best aproach to the problem seems to be the one we're
now taking, so hope and pray there is enough civility in all the parties to
FIND a solution.

Don W.

 

[Bob Adkins]

It doesn't matter.
The point is that the government DIDN'T.

In this country, WE are the Government. I know that's a hard concept to
grasp for non-free people.

Bob

 

[Bill Ward]

Absolutely sure (so is the DOE, it's their number). and that's enough
biodiesel to replace gasoline usage as well as diesel. it's algae, remember.

from earlier post:

140.8 billion gallons of biodiesel or vegetable oil would replace all
petroleum used for transportation.

NREL's research showed that one quad (ten billion gallons) of biodiesel
could be produced from 200,000 hectares of desert land (200,000 hectares is
equivalent to 780 square miles). In the previous section, we found that to
replace all transportation fuels in the US, we would need 140.8 billion
gallons of biodiesel, or roughly 14 quads. To produce that amount would
require a land mass of almost 11,000 square miles. To put that in
perspective, consider that the Sonora desert in the southwestern US
comprises 120,000 square miles. As can be seen in Figure 1 below, the Sonora
desert is located along the Pacific ocean, making it an ideal location for
algae farms. The arid climate of the desert is very supportive of algae
growth, and the nearby ocean could supply saltwater for the algae ponds.
Enough biodiesel to replace all petroleum transportation fuels could be
grown in 11,000 square miles, or roughly nine percent of the area of the
Sonora desert.
http://www.monkeymind.net/test/biodiesel/article_alge.html

Steve, about fifty years ago, Hal Clement wrote a classic SF
book, "Needle", set on an island, where IIRC, they were
manufacturing biofuel.

Is anyone considering growing algae directly in the ocean
instead of bringing the ocean up on dry land? Some of the
Pacific volcanic atolls surround pretty big natural holding
tanks. Processing plants could be built on the dry land, and
tankers could load up offshore.

Seems like at least the real estate costs would be lower.

Regards,

Bill Ward

 

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

Actually, this is NOT what Islam preaches.
According to Mohammed, there are basically 2 groups of people. There
are "The people of the book" and there are "Infidels"
According to his teaching, people of the book may not kill people of
the book. All infidels are expendible.
Who are the "people of the book"?
There are 3 groups that fall into this category, The Muslim (Islam or
Ishmealite), the Jewish (Hebrew, or Isrealite), and the Christian.

All are spiritually, if not physically, sons of Abraham. So, by the
Koran (Q'uran), it is unlawful for a Muslim to kill either a Christian
or a Jew. It is just as illegal for either of the others to kill each
other or a Muslim. According to Christian scripture (the New
Testament) we are to love our enemy, and do good to those who
persecute or mistreat us. This is in addition to the command given the
Isrealites (Jews) in the old testament which states "Thou shalt not
kill". This edict, handed down through Moses, is still part of Jewish
law (through the Torah), and is generally accepted as foundational to
Christianity as well.

Mohammed established Islam to bring order to the then Godless
offspring of Ishmael - the Arabs, and return them to the God of their
forefather Abraham. The laws of the Q'uran were to enable them to live
at peace with each other and the outside world. Islam was a "parallel"
religion to Judiasm, but came on the scene considerably later.

What both religions have in common is that the people live under the
LAW, and to be "just" they must keep the whole law. There is NO
concept of forgiveness, or "grace" (undeserved favour) in either
religion.

This has historically been the bone of contention between Jew and
Arab. No slight, however insignificant, can be forgotten, forgiven, or
otherwise put aside without retribution. The "bastard son" wants his
birthright, while the "son of promise" wants the land promised him. It
is impossible for both to be satisfied.

Without the concept of forgiveness, or grace, which entered the
"religious lexicon" 2000 years ago in the teachings of the Nazarene
known as "The Christ", there is no hope for peace in the middle east,
or anywhere else on this earth.

Whether you accept or believe that he was divine or not, there is
irreputable historic proof that he lived and taught in what is now
Palestine and Israel, and that he taught a lifestyle that was so
revolutionary that it is still spoken of today. It is still reviled by
many, as it was then, as an unworkable philosophy, and adopted by many
millions of others as the only way to live a "significant" life on
earth, at peace with themselves, their neighbours, and their God.

Sadly, their name has been taken by many others who do NOT accept his
divinity, his guidance, or his teaching in the important matters of
how to "as much as it is within your power, live at peace with all
men".
Under the (dis)guise of Christianity, Crusades were fought against the
Muslims, millions of Jews were killed in the Haulocaust, Ireland has
been torn assunder by sectarian violence for centuries, and thousands
of Godly, peaceloving people were executed by the church during the
reformation.

Untill the Muslim world returns to the teachings of their forfathers
and prophet, and the "Christian" world returns to the principals
taught by the leader of that revolutionary movement that swept through
Palestine some 2000 years ago, and the Jewish world accepts him as the
promised Messiah, there is NO HOPE of a lasting peace in the middle
east, or the world as we know it.
A Messianic Jew is no less a Jew for accepting the Jewish "Prince of
Peace".

Brothers will always have squabbles, but it IS possible for them to
co-exist in peace.

Personally, I believe an Arab is also no less an Arab - - -.

 

[Roland Paterson-Jones]

Both of you are full of shit. The problem in Israel today stems from the
original hubris of the UK in dictating that British Palestine would become a
Jewish state.

The PLO, therefore, has a natural birthright.

The Jewish settlement in Palestine is a figment of modern power politics.
Hence the current problems.

Social engineering never pays dividends. I grew up in South Africa where a
black kid like me had no life options.

Truth is truth no matter where you find it or how politically incorrect it
happens to be. There are many muslims throughout the world who claim the
terrorists, kidnappers and hijackers are not true muslims. There are many
Jews in Israel who deplore the mistreatment of Palestinians and occupation
of the West Bank. I haven't seen anyone dispute the facts presented on the
"anti Islamic" web site, although any discriminating browser should easily
see that the interpretations are one-sided. I DO have a problem with a
religion that is so intolerant as to allow for the killing of 'infidels' in
it's holy scriptures. Islam plays a role in the India/Pakistan dispute, the
Arab/Israeli dispute, the Chechnya/Russian conflict, the Abu Sayef and MILF
in the Philippines as well as ethnic problems in Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia.
Anyone who believes that Islam is a religion of peace is unwilling to see
the whole truth.

You are a bigot, Don W. Christianity had a role in the brutal colonisation
of South America, the brutal crusades (against the Islam infidel), etc.
Anyone who believes that Christianity is a religion of peace is unwilling to
see the whole truth.

Closer to the truth is that all of those conflicts are in Islamic territory.
In other words, it's hardly surprising that Islam is involved, since that is
the faith of the people involved.

I think you, Don W, have swallowed the bait of the US press, which is
painting Islam black.

The issues of Israel and the 'Palestinians' and Arab/Islamic hatred of the
West are mighty tough issues. When it comes to killing, can anyone be
right? Whether or not you love Judahism, it is likely Israel would be
ethnically 'cleansed' of Jews without support of the U.S. and without
maintaining about a 3 to 1 kill ratio of Palestinians to Jews. AND you
gotta believe that method of survival garners one hella big bunch of bad
karma! If that's the way a people must survive, that should tell them
something.

Now what do you do? Do you allow the Jews to be slaughtered? Do you reward
terrorists (who send bombers into crowded restaurants) by listening to their
grievances? What makes the Jews believe that the collateral damage they
allow when blowing up the car of a militant Palestinian leader is better
than the suicide bomber on a crowded bus? It's just a mess and there's no
great solution. The best aproach to the problem seems to be the one we're
now taking, so hope and pray there is enough civility in all the parties to
FIND a solution.

I like to believe that Tony Blair made a deal with the devil, that he would
support the invasion of Iraq, as long as the situation in Palestine was
sorted. Hence the current roadmap.

Roland

--
Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones
Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay
http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge
mobile: +27 72 386 8045
e-mail: [email protected]

 

[Moosh:]]

All your concrete (for the dam construction?) , steel, aluminum, gold, zinc,
copper etc wiring/circuits,plastics, components etc that make up your
hydro electric power system was
manufac/transported/distributed/made_available to YOU by the use of coal
power electric plants and of course, the other fossil fuels. What do you
think powers (the biggest energy source) the mines/.mills/processing
facilities/trucks/trains/blah-blah-blah everything else to get you your
consumables? Same with your AC. Duh, you should have been able to figure
that out. Your veggie oil fuel is nothing more than a WASTE product from
restraunts that use GOBS of electricity from coal (let us throw in all of
fossil fuels since you hate that too) fired power plants. Your waste veggie
oil contribution to the energy pool is about equivalent to an ameba on an
elephant/whales ass Crap, your car is a shining example of a huge
accumulation of products that came from the earth, that was made possible by
affordable,,, but dirty (define dirty please, because everything has by
products) ,,,,, fossil fuels,,,,, which Coal is king of.. If you think coal
is dirty, just imagine what the pollution stream (let us throw in sanitation
and premature death rates from it) would be *if* we converted everything
back to draft animal mode. The shit in the streets would be nose high and
the foliage surrounding the cities would be leveled. Of course, the
population would shrink down (higher death rates) significantly by
switching back to draft animal mode. Yep, your clean energy source sure is
a winner. Keep beating that dead horse.

But otherwise he's on the money?

 

[Moosh:]]

ah, there is the problem, anything you don't agree with is a myth. oh well,
that's your problem, not mine.

So you believe that the Israelites' slavery in Egypt three thousand
odd years ago is fact? You and a few religious types are the only
ones. That's the only thing I've referred to as myth, and it's coz
every authority I've read regards it so.

 

[Moosh:]]

...

This is close to one of several important factors. As I read it we are in
the cross hairs because
1. We oppose dictatorships,

But your history shows you have propped up *many* dictators.
Saddam being one of them

have no patience with abusive customs,

Well abusive is often in the eye of the beholder. Many view US as
abusive.

and
believe Israel has a right to exist

That's rather difficult to get your head around, except if you accept
what has already happened and try to draw a line under it.

and are willing to support that right.

Yep, big Zionist lobby in US

2. We have only short term narrow interests, even when it comes to investing
and reaping profits, and are too often willing to roll over to avoid
standing up for our own best interests, especially when those are long term.

Huh? Who are you talking about here? The McGalliard family?

Almost equally divided between being cursed because we will not accept evil
in others, and cursed because we tolerate evil far too much in ourselves and
in our neighbors.

No, you are seen as pragmatic exploiters. Your own interests always
come first, even though the folks at home aren't told this.

With friends like us, who needs enemies?

Well, the French are friends, and even moderate Colin Powell said that
the "French will pay" for not joining the posse to crap on Iraq.

(Also applies to most of our allies, near as I can tell.)

Well our smarmy little leader is sucking up to the school bully to get
protection and furure cheap oil. Obvious as day.

 

[Moosh:]]

...
Not at all - that's just money. Our greatest enemies are those who try to
kill us. Or do you consider "riches" to be more valuable than human life?

As my daughter observed, there are much worse things that can be done to you
than to just kill you. Besides, if one can take your riches, for which you
must sacrifice so much of your life, they are taking your life, by little
bits and pieces.

That's a sad commentary. Your riches are your life. Really?

Don't be silly. How much of your time do you spend at work? That much of
your riches is your life. Steal a dollar from a poor working man, and you
have stolen an hour of his life.

I agree, that's the reallity but I say again "That's a sad
commentary."

 

[daestrom]

politicians, oil company lobby, in each others pockets ......

--

While you may be right, when I see statements like this, I feel it is too
easy and dismissive an answer. Makes me wonder more about what might be the
real problems with bio-fuels. Since you are pro bio-fuels, you may be
accepting this answer too easily as the only hold up.

Is there legislation that deters bio fuels? If so, who sponsered it and
why? Don't assume it is for payments rendered by big oil unless you have
some facts. Any oil industry executive that can produce useful diesel at
half the price of imports would be for it, not against it. The drive to
stay competitive and profitable should push at least *one* company to
investigate. But perhaps they have investigated it and found the plan
wanting?

daestrom

 

[daestrom]

That is a poor come back. Obviously you have no concrete rebuttal. You are
in denial about just how much your itty bitty dream world depends on good ol
fossil fuel.

I bet ya Steve that you are one of those New Yorkers that thinks all
electricity comes from the light switch, milk comes from the dairy section
of the supermarket and not cows/goats, gasoline comes form the gas station
on the corner, and meat comes from the meat section of the supermarket and
not from animals/fish.
LOL.

As a fellow New Yorker, I take exception to that. You demonstrate that many
people think all New Yorkers live in NYC. Guess again. Internal to NYS,
there is a constant battle between the large population of NYC that wants to
control all of NYS while those of us living *outside* of NYC would just as
soon see NYC cecede from the state.

Do you have a clue as to where Steve lives? I'd bet there is a dairy farm
within five miles of his house. After the financial district of NYC, do you
know what the number one export of NYS is (and no, it isn't 'Buffalo
Wings')?

Talk about stereotyping people....

daestrom

 

[Steve Spence]

heh, I grew up on a dairy farm. Milked my share of goats and cows by hand
without machines. codemann has no clue about a lot of things. he's one of
the groups resident trolls, and this just reminded me why I plonked him on
the old account. No biggy, easily rectified.

I butcher my own meat on occasion, generated my own electric at times, made
my own biodiesel and ethanol, and grow my own veggies in the heart of
upstate NY dairy country. Codemann knows all this from previous
conversations, which just proves his intent is to sow discord, not engage in
meaningful conversation.

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

Truth is truth no matter where you find it or how politically incorrect it
happens to be. There are many muslims throughout the world who claim the
terrorists, kidnappers and hijackers are not true muslims. There are many
Jews in Israel who deplore the mistreatment of Palestinians and occupation
of the West Bank.

Truth is very subjective.

I haven't seen anyone dispute the facts presented on the
"anti Islamic" web site, although any discriminating browser should easily
see that the interpretations are one-sided.

Are you saying the link is 'fact', 'truth', even if one sided?

I DO have a problem with a
religion that is so intolerant as to allow for the killing of 'infidels' in
it's holy scriptures.

Boy, and that is open to interpretation. Your source says it is a fact.
But then, the Bible is full of smiting and death for the heathen. I
recall a story about a guy that was stoned to death just for gathering
wood on the Sabbath.

Islam plays a role in the India/Pakistan dispute, the

That is political in every way. Take the Kashmir region primarily
populated by Pakistani’s but ruled by India.

Arab/Israeli dispute,

The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is because of Islam?

the Chechnya/Russian conflict,

So the Christians have no blood on thier hands?

the Abu Sayef and MILF
in the Philippines as well as ethnic problems in Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia.
Anyone who believes that Islam is a religion of peace is unwilling to see
the whole truth.

Let me see. Croatia, predominitly Christian, had been brutaly cleansing
Albanian Kosovars from the land and it is Islam's fault.

You left out the greatest atrocity of the last decade, the genocide in
Rwanda. Over a million dead. We should be able to figure out a way to
blame Islam for this one.

Half the world is Muslim. It is not hard to see why they are part of
conflicts. To simply say, There are religious folks involved in
conflicts therefore the conflicts are religious’, is flawed.

I could say that Catholic priests are pedophiles therefore all
Christians are pedophiles. But that is absurd.

SEH seems not to be the most appropriate place to discuss religion,
international relations, economics or politics, but there are some brilliant
people here and some seem to insist on arguing those issues here.

The issues of Israel and the 'Palestinians' and Arab/Islamic hatred of the
West are mighty tough issues. When it comes to killing, can anyone be
right? Whether or not you love Judahism, it is likely Israel would be
ethnically 'cleansed' of Jews without support of the U.S. and without
maintaining about a 3 to 1 kill ratio of Palestinians to Jews. AND you
gotta believe that method of survival garners one hella big bunch of bad
karma! If that's the way a people must survive, that should tell them
something.

In 1947 the Israelis started with Palestinian massacres. The ethnic
cleansing of the land was underway. You can tell me that the Arabs had
it in for the Jews from the beginning, but that’s not the way I read it.
Fifty years later and Israel is still systematically destroying
Palestinian society and it is the Palestinian’s fault?

Now what do you do? Do you allow the Jews to be slaughtered? Do you reward
terrorists (who send bombers into crowded restaurants) by listening to their
grievances?

You will find that most Palestinians don't want it this way. Do you know
how many scores of Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli
attacks? So what do you want? Do you allow the Jews to continue to
slaughter Palestinians even if their methods aren't as striking as
'suicide bombers'? Peaceful oppression is an oxymoron.

What makes the Jews believe that the collateral damage they
allow when blowing up the car of a militant Palestinian leader is better
than the suicide bomber on a crowded bus? It's just a mess and there's no
great solution. The best aproach to the problem seems to be the one we're
now taking, so hope and pray there is enough civility in all the parties to
FIND a solution.

Until something changes, nothing will change. I have little hope that
the Israelis will do the right thing. This is in their hands, the
Palestinians have little to do with it. The Israelis must stop treating
the Palestinians like cattle to change things. It has been fifty years
of the same old story; do you really think it is different this time?? I
don’t see it.

Best, Dan.

 

[Moosh:]]

that's your whole problem. you are boggled.

Good relevant answer.

Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org

Sure it is.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 06:14:51 -0400, "Steve Spence"

hey what about the Rhine? and the Thames?

What about them? Is this relevant?

Do you really think it is helpful to comment "Sure it is" at the top
and cut out all reference to "it"?

Why is the Rhine and the Thames relevant to the cause of whatever
pollution there is in the US? The mind boggles.

 

[Moosh:]]

Answering questions posed by "Moosh:]"

What's MTBE? What is it added for? What is the comparison with the
alternative

Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether.

Thanks. L found this site:

http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/mtbe/mtbe.html

It was a government required additive to
gasoline, a so-called "oxygenate" that would slightly reduce carbon
monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons in auto exhaust.

Well quite significantly actually. And it is an octane rating improver
without the toxic effect of lead.

Unfortunately, it
turned out to be volatile, water soluable, and somewhat toxic, and it
was found to be polluting the groundwater in California.

Don W told me there was no ground water polution in the States.

The
government bungled, getting a tiny reduction in air pollution at a
cost of much more serious water pollution.

Well not really. And they are replacing it with ethanol. (Have
replaced?)

Alternative oxygenates include methanol and ethanol - more expensive
and also water soluable. At least ethanol is not as toxic and is
biodegradable.

With some bioremediation, I guess they are all biodegradable.

With modern clean burning engines and catalytic converters, the
continued use of oxygenates is questionable.

But the anti-knock qualities are worthwhile.

Alaska Northern Wildlife Animal Refuge. Bush wants to open it up for
his buddies to drill for oil there.

Thanks. A local problem

 

[Moosh:]]

bullshit.

Good fuel