Church told to hang own fire panel

[Nick Markowitz Jr.]

My Wifes chuch is getting a fire system which i refused to bid on do to this
churchs members politics but company they hired which is one of the big ones
in my area today had 2 installer show up to start job and they told church
janitor that he had to hang the panel for them they did not do that part of
the job. they left wire and tools everywhere for people to trip over and
then were asked to lock doors when they left and did not.

once again the fire alarm experts strike.

 

[Grahammey]

My Wifes chuch is getting a fire system which i refused to bid on do to this
churchs members politics but company they hired which is one of the big ones
in my area today had 2 installer show up to start job and they told church
janitor that he had to hang the panel for them they did not do that part of
the job. they left wire and tools everywhere for people to trip over and
then were asked to lock doors when they left and did not.

once again the fire alarm experts strike.

they coulda got that from Bass

 

[Frank Olson]

My Wifes chuch is getting a fire system which i refused to bid on do to this
churchs members politics but company they hired which is one of the big ones
in my area today had 2 installer show up to start job and they told church
janitor that he had to hang the panel for them they did not do that part of
the job. they left wire and tools everywhere for people to trip over and
then were asked to lock doors when they left and did not.

once again the fire alarm experts strike.

Geeze, Nick... You gotta lotta "experts" in your area...

 

[Crash Gordon]

But the janitors will probably do a better job hanging the panel




| My Wifes chuch is getting a fire system which i refused to bid on do to
this
| churchs members politics but company they hired which is one of the big
ones
| in my area today had 2 installer show up to start job and they told church
| janitor that he had to hang the panel for them they did not do that part
of
| the job. they left wire and tools everywhere for people to trip over and
| then were asked to lock doors when they left and did not.
|
| once again the fire alarm experts strike.
|
|

 

[ssokoly]

But the janitors will probably do a better job hanging the panel




| My Wifes chuch is getting a fire system which i refused to bid on do to
this
| churchs members politics but company they hired which is one of the big
ones
| in my area today had 2 installer show up to start job and they told church
| janitor that he had to hang the panel for them they did not do that part
of
| the job. they left wire and tools everywhere for people to trip over and
| then were asked to lock doors when they left and did not.
|
| once again the fire alarm experts strike.
|
|

Don't get me started on churches and fire alarms, I have plenty of
horror stories to tell.

 

[Robert L Bass]

Don't get me started on churches and fire

alarms, I have plenty of horror stories to tell.

I have numerous churches that have bought
commercial fire alarms from me and installed
them themselves. It's not rocket science, you
know.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

At least until the fire marshall yellow-tags it

So far that has not happened. I've been
catering to DIY for 9 years online and 30
total years in the business.

Perhaps Leuck is better acquainted with
yellow tags on his own installations?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

At least until the fire marshall yellow-tags it

That has never happened with my installs...

Uh-huh. Amd yet the first thing you thought
of was that. Hmm. Next you'll tell us you're
a pilot...

and over the years I've been back to many
of them, you on the other hand could never
tell since you've not been out to any of your
DIY'er fire installations...

Well, as usual you're wrong. I've visited a
number of my DIY clients' sites over the years.
I actually have quite a few local customers
who have installed their own security, fire and
CCTV systems. The surprising thing for me
in this business is the number of companies
that have chosen to buy access control and
commercial fire alarm systems and use their
own employees to install them. It's nice that
the laws allow that virtually everywhere.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Grahammey]

I don't find that suprising at all, businesses think they'll save a few
bucks getting the stockboy to install it and it'll be just more useless
equipment laying around waiting for a real tech to come complete the work,
Hopefully you'll wake up from this dream

then they end up paying more than if they had hired a local company.
I've seen this many times. I end up making more than I would have if I
had bid the job. Best thing is I don't have to warranty the install
because they bought the equipment from elsewhere. I only have to
warranty my labor for a month or three. I love those diyers.

 

[Robert L Bass]

I was part owner of a Piper Cherokee

about 20 years ago...

Suuure, you were.

I don't find that suprising at all, businesses
think they'll save a few bucks...

More like thousands of dollars. A while back
I sold a system -- three systems really -- to
a condomimium complex. They had 3
structures to protect. The lowest bidder wanted
upwards of $100,000 for the whole project.

They bought the hardware from me for less than
$30,000. Their electrician installed it for another
$25K or so. ADT wanted over $140,000 plus
a ridiculous monthly fee for inspections and
monitoring. They hired a local alarm company to
handle monitoring, maintenance and testing.
Compared to ADT they saved a mere $95,000
up front plus about 3/4 of the annual fees.

getting the stockboy to install it
and it'll be just more useless equipment
laying around waiting for a real tech to
come complete the work...

Who are you trying to convince? Only the
hard-heads with no clue believe that sort of
blather. Anyone with a modicum of tool skills
and a little patience can do this stuff. Licensed
electricians can and often do install far more
advanced fire alarms than many low voltage
techs ever tackle.

Hopefully you'll wake up from this dream...

That's what you said when I told you my
company was developing software for a new
series of fire alarms. You were so sure that
I couldn't do it... until I put M Leuck, J
Stevens and RL Bass in the help system that
ships with the software. :^)

Several of your pals used to predict how my
business was about to (1) fall apart; (2) get
closed by the state; (3) be shut down by my
suppliers; etc. I'm still here. Many of them
are not. I'm still running my business
catering successfully to DIYers who want to
install their own alarms while you continue
working in your cubicle at Monitronics.

Feel free to pretend that no one but a paid
alarm installer can wire up these simple
systems. FWIW, I've spent more years
installing and servicing alarms than you've
been in the business. Alarm work isn't just
easy to do. It's easy to teach, too. I do it
all the time. My customers prove you're
wrong every day.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Doug]

I think its nice that you actually believe that and you are able to convince
the punters that its true

Doug

 

[Frank Olson]

Suuure, you were.


More like thousands of dollars. A while back
I sold a system -- three systems really -- to
a condomimium complex. They had 3
structures to protect. The lowest bidder wanted
upwards of $100,000 for the whole project.

They bought the hardware from me for less than
$30,000. Their electrician installed it for another
$25K or so. ADT wanted over $140,000 plus
a ridiculous monthly fee for inspections and
monitoring. They hired a local alarm company to
handle monitoring, maintenance and testing.
Compared to ADT they saved a mere $95,000
up front plus about 3/4 of the annual fees.

Yes, yes... we've heard it all before.

Who are you trying to convince?

No one here.

Only the
hard-heads with no clue believe that sort of
blather.
Uh-huh...


Anyone with a modicum of tool skills
and a little patience can do this stuff.

Y'know... I've never actually met a "DIYer" that had either the proper
tools (or the "modicum of skills" necessary to utilize them when he
found out what he needed), and I've been called in to install/service a
number of jobs where the DIYer simply ran out of patience"...

Licensed
electricians can and often do install far more
advanced fire alarms than many low voltage
techs ever tackle.

That's because, in most jurisdictions, "licensed electricians" are
*mandated* to install fire alarm. There's a lot of skill required to
install conduit, read and understand a set of specifications and plans.
Then there's the specific code issues that most DIYer's wouldn't even
have a clue about... On most jobs involving the higher end systems (I'm
not talking a FireShield panel), the electrical contractor will often
request a factory trained technician complete the terminations and
programming.

That's what you said when I told you my
company was developing software for a new
series of fire alarms.

You were so sure that
I couldn't do it... until I put M Leuck, J
Stevens and RL Bass in the help system that
ships with the software. :^)

Yet when I speak with the techs at Edwards (now GE Security) not a
single one uses "your company's" software to program a Fireshield panel.
They all (to a man) program the panel manually. I mean, really,
Bobby... You're crowing about a piece of crap "help system" you
downloaded from the Internet and then captured a few screen shots for...
How much "intelligence" does that take?? It sure ain't "Rocket Science".

Several of your pals used to predict how my
business was about to (1) fall apart; (2) get
closed by the state; (3) be shut down by my
suppliers; etc. I'm still here.

To quote another frequent poster: "Tick tock, tick tock"...

Feel free to pretend that no one but a paid
alarm installer can wire up these simple
systems.

Where has he (or anyone else here) said that??

FWIW, I've spent more years
installing and servicing alarms than you've
been in the business.

Uh-huh... suuure you have...

Alarm work isn't just
easy to do.
???


It's easy to teach, too. I do it
all the time. My customers prove you're
wrong every day.

And the "list" of your *dissatisfied customers* grows "every day" too...

 

[Robert L Bass]

BTW, speaking of fire alarm system testing and
maintenance, NFPA 72 actually places the
responsibility on the building owner or his
designee. (cf. NFPA72 7-1.2)

A building owner should do his own testing but
if he desires code allows him to designate
a qualified alarm company to handle the work
for him as long as they sign a written contract
to do the work in accordance with code.
(cf. NFPA72 7-1.2.1)

Code requires that a paid third party (alarm
company tech) be trained and certified before
doing inspections. A building owner is not
required to undergo any formal training
though.

NFPA72 provides a handy guide for inspection
and testing of fire alarm systems. Table 7-2.2
"Test Methods" lists every component along
with the appropriate method of testing. At the
end of the section is a sample inspection form
which the building owner should print out and
fiull in during the course of testing.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[JoeRaisin]

BTW, speaking of fire alarm system testing and
maintenance, NFPA 72 actually places the
responsibility on the building owner or his
designee. (cf. NFPA72 7-1.2)

A building owner should do his own testing but
if he desires code allows him to designate
a qualified alarm company to handle the work
for him as long as they sign a written contract
to do the work in accordance with code.
(cf. NFPA72 7-1.2.1)

Code requires that a paid third party (alarm
company tech) be trained and certified before
doing inspections. A building owner is not
required to undergo any formal training
though.

NFPA72 provides a handy guide for inspection
and testing of fire alarm systems. Table 7-2.2
"Test Methods" lists every component along
with the appropriate method of testing. At the
end of the section is a sample inspection form
which the building owner should print out and
fiull in during the course of testing.

First, the "guide" in the reference ain't that "handy" especially from a
layman's view, and I'm sure that a business owner has nothing better to
do than acquire, read and digest the NFPA72 so he/she can accurately
describe his wiring in terms of what class and style wiring he/she has
installed. Not to mention battery calcs and what not.

Then there is the quick trip to radio shack to try and find out how to
do a discharge test on a battery.

The Fire Marshall around here just loves finding inspection forms with
"self" entered under "Service Organization"... oh wait, he never has...

 

[Petem]

I have numerous churches that have bought
commercial fire alarms from me and installed
them themselves. It's not rocket science, you
know.

At our new office while I was installing the 40 access reader and the DMP
panel with 5 keypad 2 lx bus the electrician was trying to install 64 input
point and 4 output point with 10 bell's....yesterday as I was installing the
last part that I pulled from our old office,the Edwards guy was still there
trying to explain how to plug those addressable device to the electrician
boss son...when I left half of it was not working properly even after 3
weeks of preparation..

its not rocket science...but it still need to be installed properly and
within code specification...

what you fail to tell us is that the guy that did the certification at all
those church had to come back for months before all was done ok and that the
church paid all those our of work at premium price....

 

[Robert L Bass]

I was part owner of a Piper Cherokee

Strange I don't recall you being there however
since you were just coming off probation it's
just as well...

Wrong again.

Suuure they did

Believe whatever makes you feel good.

It wasn't "your" company it was your sister's...

Nope. It is (not "was") a partnership between
three of us.

(stated by you), you didn't write the software

Correct. I designed the app but I did not write
the code. My brother is a much more experienced
programmer than I am.

I also had a voice in designing the firmware
though we declined to write it. Edwards originally
hired another outside programmer to do the firmware.
He was an ex-FBII engineer. Unfortunately, he
was unable to finish so Edwards' inside people
did it.

you wrote a helpfile for the software (also
stated by you) and I never stated you couldn't
do it although writing a Winhelp file is pretty
easy stuff since I've had mine going for almost
10 years now.

I've seen your work. There's much more to
designing an effective help system than what
you did.

Hey I'll put some neato names in mine just
to show how really awsome I am using a
keyboard

Try designing something worth placing your
name on it first.

Well you finally spelled the name correctly...

I deliberately misspelled it. The company you
work for has been the subject of hundreds of
complaints from it's own customers. That's
not the same thing as a few of your pals sending
emails to the BBB several times a month pretending
to be my customers.

and if you've paid attention all these years
I've not done 1, 2 or 3 however It is has always
been my opinion that while your business did
better than what people like Mike would
like others to believe I seriously doubt it's done
anywhere close to what you brag often about.

Often? I rarely give any indication of how
much I sell. The business is doing fine though.
Most of the others whose owners posted here
are gone now. There are still lots of competing
online alarm stores. Mine's just the biggest and
the best but I'm kind of prejudiced. :^)

Yes many of them provide licensed alarm techs
business to finish the messes you've helped start

Name one.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

First, the "guide" in the reference ain't that

"handy" especially from a layman's view...

I can't speak for you. I found it helpful in
explaining things to my DIY customers.

and I'm sure that a business owner has nothing
better to do than acquire, read and digest the
NFPA72...

Most of the time commercial fire alarms we sell
get installed by in-house electriciams. They usually
know NFPA better than many of the alarm installers
I've met over the years.

so he/she can accurately describe his wiring in
terms of what class and style wiring he/she has installed.

You're still referring to "class?"

Not to mention battery calcs and what not.

Battery calcs are a snap. Many of the
manufcturers even provide a downloadable
spreadsheet to facilitate it.

Then there is the quick trip to radio shack
to try and find out how to do a discharge
test on a battery.

You go to Radio Shack?

The Fire Marshall around here just loves finding
inspection forms with "self" entered under "Service
Organization"... oh wait, he never has...

Hmm. Which is it? Does he love it or hasn't
he ever seen it? Oh, wait. You were kidding.
About the entire post or just this?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

... How much time is involved getting this all

approved?...

Usually about an hour or two. I've seen one
AHJ in Florida who at first refused to issue a permit.
After I sent him (by way of my customer) a copy
of the statute with the applicable paragraphs
hghlighted he issued the permit.

He was a stickler (as he should be) and the
customer had to follow the rules (which he
should) but when all was said and done he
issued the C.O. My customer was happy --
and several thousand dollars richer than he
would have been.

The final connections to the devices are
easy enough, but programming the panel can be another issue. Programming an
analog addressable fire alarm panel generally
requires experience and (factory) training.

The larger portion of these jobs consists of
conventional panels. However, I've also sold
plenty of addressable fire alarm systems to
DIYers and to date none have had difficulty
programming.

This DIY fire alarm thing might be okay in
some areas with some smaller systems,
but the limitations are real and obvious at
some point as the system parameters get larger.

It depends on the system and the client. Many
of our DIY customers are engineers. Many
employ in-house electricians. Some are even
ex-alarm installers who've moved on to more
lucrative work but one day find they need an
alarm.

Virtually anyone capable of hooking up a stereo
system can install a basic, conventional fire
alarm system. There isn't much to them. The
key is to speak with someone who understands
code and can help lay out the system. Many
companies large enough to need a more advanced
fire alarm system have technical staff on board
who can handle the job with a little coaxing.
Those that can't are well advised to hire a
professional installer.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

At our new office while I was installing the

40 access reader and the DMP panel with
5 keypad 2 lx bus the electrician was trying
to install 64 input point and 4 output point
with 10 bell's....yesterday as I was installing
the last part that I pulled from our old office,
the Edwards guy was still there trying to
explain how to plug those addressable device
to the electrician boss son...when I left half
of it was not working properly even after 3 weeks of preparation..

Hmm. This was posted on a Sunday. "Yesterday"
was Saturday. Are you telling us that Edwards
sent out a rep to work on this small system on
Saturday? Please!

its not rocket science...

Correct. Neither is figuring out when you're
making up a story.

but it still need to be installed properly and within code specification...

Having witnessed some of the type of work done
by "professionals" I feel confident advising DIY
customers that they can do as good or better.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Grahammey]

Virtually anyone capable of hooking up a stereo
system can install a basic, conventional fire
alarm system. There isn't much to them. The
key is to speak with someone who understands
code and can help lay out the system.

who would that be?