Church told to hang own fire panel

[Doug]

The whoosh sound was the collective raising of eyebrows, as you devour yet
one more footburger.

Doug

 

[Jim]

Sorry to disappoint you, Jim but it looks
like I'm going to be around for a long time.
It's just as well, though.  You'd have missed
me terribly.  :^)

Your best friend,
Robert L Bass

Hey ..... look dead man........

Dead or alive your still a piece of shit that deserves to die.

And you know damn well that your chances of recurrence are pretty good
and usually it's within 5 years and it's fatal.

Live with it ..... ummmm or should I say ...... die with it.

Just imagining the the terror in your head is a pleasant and
satisfying thought.

Couldn't happen to a more deserving person.

 

[Jim]

The whoosh sound was the collective raising of eyebrows, as you devour yet
one more footburger.

Doug

Welllll,

Now it also could have been the wind blowing in one ear and out the
other.

Ya see, he always thought that when he went to the beach, people came
over to give him a hug. They were really just trying to "hear the
ocean" in his head.

 

[Doug]

Its rumoured, well it is now, that those people were actually from
Greenpeace and that they were playing strange musical sounds and trying to
roll him into the ocean, I personally don't quite follow that, but anyway,
thats the rumour.


Doug

 

[Carl Carlson]

In all likelihood its BS, its just RLB doing whatever he can to get a
reaction..

Doug

Ya think?
js

 

[Doug]

Not very often

Doug

--

Ya think?
js

 

[Jim]

You know, you guys, there are some smart people out there besides you.
There are people with engineering degrees that can read a manual, know what
continuity is, can use a voltmeter and know when to ask questions.  Luckily
tho, I don't go to church.  

It's not a matter of "smart" it's a matter of experiece and knowing
"what" questions to ask. There's "always" a learning curve that
DIY'ers and Dead ass Bass, will never admit exists and what the
comparitive cost for it are. The cost of labor and the extended amount
of time to do the job is never/EVER, mentioned by anyone involved with
a DIY project. It's always
compaing the cost of equipment to the cost of equipment AND labor and
always ignores the time, labor, expense and cost of mistakes of the
DIY'er. When you add it all up at the going rates for a professional
to do the job, it's pretty damn close and when done by a professional,
subsequent problems are his. A DIY'er has the burden of responsibility
of maintaining the system forever. The initial project might be a
challange but most times, they eventually opt to have a professional
come in. That's where most of the alarm installers come in contact
with the ..... shall we say ..... "unorthodox" methods, that are
typical to DIY installations. In other words, ..... the systems done
by DIY'ers may work, but, at the end, without inspections by someone
familiar with the standard and traditional way of doing things, when a
professional finally DOES get involved, trying to figure out how
things were done in order to test, repair or maintain a system, gets
to be ..... if not difficult, just simply a PITA.

The example I often give is the DIR'er who called me in because he
couldn't locate an open on his burglar alarm system. He'd seen the
drawing on the panel door instructions, that shows a wire coming from
one zone terminal with contacts in series and the other end of the
wire going back to the box to the other zone terminal. Sure enough, he
ran one single wire out from the box to every door and window with all
the wires buried in the wall. No test points, no drops to the basement
or attic. Nothing exposed.

Oh, and not going to church is no problem as long as you spent the
previous night at a Holiday Inn.

 

[Robert L Bass]

You go to Radio Shack?

Like I know where to go to find resistors or diodes?

Take it easy, Joe. I'm just having a little fun with you.

They are things that go in electronic circuits...
never mind... probably beyond you...

You figure?

No. But if I were an DIY and ran across a
term such as "discharge test" and saw that
I needed to do it to complete an inspection
the web site guy told me I would have no
problem taking care of on my own then the that is a likely place to go.

That's a lot of "ifs," Joe. If you were a DIYer
and you ran across a term like "discharge
test" and didn't know whay it meant, you'd
ask the company that supplied the hardware.
That's what my customers do.

I frequently field calls from customers whose
systems were professionally installed. Most
of the questions have to do with how to
reset a trouble condition. Presumably, they
have not been properly instructed in the use
and care of thewir systems by the dealers.

Those calls are so common that we have to
shut off the phones at night just to get some
rest. OTOH, I almost never get that kind of
call from a DIYer, presumably because they
understand their systems better than
customers of paid installers.

Seemed rhetorical...

No, it was a valid question. You tried to prove a
point by saying that some official regularly agrees
with you. In the next breath you admit he never
does. So which is it? Does he regularly agree
with you or has the subject never come up? You
made the contradictory claims. Please explain.

Unlike you, I don't make comments or invent
stories just to get reactions...

Well. you say that but clearly that is what you
just did. Or was the story rhetorical? Oh, wait.
There's no such thing. Perhaps it was an allegory.

so your question didn't appear to require an answer since it is obvious to everyone else
that the sarcasm was meant for that paragraph.

Nice dodge but you still have not answered. Does
the FM always agree with you or has it never
happened? I'm only trying to understand what it is
you're saying. The question is simple and so should
the answer be. There's no need to turn it into
personal insults.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

You know, you guys, there are some smart

people out there besides you. There are
people with engineering degrees that can
read a manual, know what continuity is, can
use a voltmeter and know when to ask
questions.

That is precisely the point I've been making
for the past eight or nine years in this newsgroup.
However, there are a number of folks whose
living depends on the public believing that alarm
work is brain surgery.

Luckily tho, I don't go to church.

That's too bad. Perhaps they would have asked
you to help with the installation. All kidding aside
I have numerous churches as customers. They
often choose to DIY because they can't afford
what the local alarm companies want to install
a system. My church in CT had on staff several
licensed electricians, a licensed low voltage
contractor and several engineers. One of our
church board members used to design space
suits for Martin-Marietta. I think we were equipped
to handle the work. Many large organizations --
churches, educational institutions, commercial
and industrial operations -- have more than
adequate staff to do this sort of simple work.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[micr0]

I frequently field calls from customers whose
systems were professionally installed. Most
of the questions have to do with how to
reset a trouble condition. Presumably, they
have not been properly instructed in the use
and care of thewir systems by the dealers.

persumably they haven't read the manual either, huh? or can't find one
online even though all manufacturers have them available. do read this
tripe before sending?

Those calls are so common that we have to
shut off the phones at night just to get some
rest.

oh, that's why bass never answers his phone guys. it's our fault. all
of our customers are calling him for tech advise. hahahahaha

OTOH, I almost never get that kind of
call from a DIYer, presumably because they
understand their systems better than
customers of paid installers.

maybe because you have the phone turned off, schmucko. instead they
come here to post their questions along with " we can't reach him online
or on the phone"

No, it was a valid question. You tried to prove a
point by saying that some official regularly agrees
with you. In the next breath you admit he never
does. So which is it? Does he regularly agree
with you or has the subject never come up?

this coming from a guy who "gets calls all the time" while he also "
turns off his phones" u r losing it nappy headed basshoe

 

[Tommy]

That's too bad. Perhaps they would have asked
you to help with the installation. All kidding aside
I have numerous churches as customers. They
often choose to DIY because they can't afford
what the local alarm companies want to install
a system. My church in CT had on staff several
licensed electricians, a licensed low voltage
contractor and several engineers. One of our
church board members used to design space
suits for Martin-Marietta. I think we were equipped
to handle the work. Many large organizations --
churches, educational institutions, commercial
and industrial operations -- have more than
adequate staff to do this sort of simple work.

A church that "had on staff several
licensed electricians, a licensed low voltage
contractor and several engineers" that couldn't afford to have a system
professionally installed?

That's hard to swallow. a church big enough to have that kind of people
"on staff" wouldn't blink at the cost of a life safety system. at least
they shouldn't.

 

[JoeRaisin]

Take it easy, Joe. I'm just having a little fun with you.




You figure?




That's a lot of "ifs," Joe. If you were a DIYer
and you ran across a term like "discharge
test" and didn't know whay it meant, you'd
ask the company that supplied the hardware.
That's what my customers do.

I frequently field calls from customers whose
systems were professionally installed. Most
of the questions have to do with how to
reset a trouble condition. Presumably, they
have not been properly instructed in the use
and care of thewir systems by the dealers.

Those calls are so common that we have to
shut off the phones at night just to get some
rest. OTOH, I almost never get that kind of
call from a DIYer, presumably because they
understand their systems better than
customers of paid installers.




No, it was a valid question. You tried to prove a
point by saying that some official regularly agrees
with you. In the next breath you admit he never
does. So which is it? Does he regularly agree
with you or has the subject never come up? You
made the contradictory claims. Please explain.




Well. you say that but clearly that is what you
just did. Or was the story rhetorical? Oh, wait.
There's no such thing. Perhaps it was an allegory.




Nice dodge but you still have not answered. Does
the FM always agree with you or has it never
happened? I'm only trying to understand what it is
you're saying. The question is simple and so should
the answer be. There's no need to turn it into
personal insults.

You started it with your denigration of Radio Shack - which I still
contend is a good place to pick up a component or two when you are in a
hurry and where most average people would go whn presented with
questions like this. And no you weren't trying to have a little fun.
You are historically rude and belittling to anyone who disagrees with you.

Once again, you are being obtuse. Do you understand what sarcasm is?
The comment was sarcasm since anyone trying to pass off a self
inspection around here would get cited and told to call a professional.

There is a valid reason that inspections are done by third party.

I don't expect that you will ever admit that you are wrong on this one
so, having said what I wanted to say I shall stop now. I used to enjoy
news group sparring but lately it is just tedious.

 

[Carl Carlson]

I don't expect that you will ever admit that you are wrong on this one
so, having said what I wanted to say I shall stop now. I used to
enjoy news group sparring but lately it is just tedious.

Joe, it is only tedious when sparring with dishonest people. You're on the
right track.
js

 

[JoeRaisin]

You know, you guys, there are some smart people out there besides you.
There are people with engineering degrees that can read a manual, know what
continuity is, can use a voltmeter and know when to ask questions. Luckily
tho, I don't go to church.

I'm sure they are but most of them are usually too busy to research all
the codes that apply to an installation like this. Not to mention
learning the vernacular, knowing what wire is suitable for what
environments and having to figure out the local AHJ's quirks the hard way.

Time is money for folks like this and while there is always the
exception to the rule it is worth it to most of them to call a pro.

It takes long enough to try and find out which pro to call and which to
avoid.

Luckily enough, there usually aren't people sleeping in a church...
errr... well, overnight at least...

 

[Petem]

I don't care whether the company you work
for moved. The story about an Edwards tech
coming out to your site on Saturday was bull.
As to your identity, no one really cares.


He died?

Yup they fought for there nation and was hang by a bunch fucking English ass
hole....

about the Edwards guys...he came back today..still found a lot of issue with
the fire system and will come back tomorrow...

he is now charging the electrician for his support on a day by day basis,and
the electrician was trying to give back to us the bill...

in the mean time we have to keep some security guard on fire watch
24/24...this will cost the electrician even more....wait till he see the
bill for the guard...

 

[Robert L Bass]

A church that "had on staff several licensed

electricians, a licensed low voltage contractor
and several engineers" that couldn't afford to
have a system professionally installed?

In the case of our church cost was not the
issue. I donated the alarm system. The point
is that many such institutions have plenty of
technically knowledgeable people who can
do for the church that for which a private
company might charge three or four times the
cost of the materials. This isn't meant to
fault alarm dealers. They need to make a
profit from their labors. However, they don't
have a *right* to insist that no one but they
do alarm work.

That's hard to swallow. a church big enough
to have that kind of people "on staff" wouldn't
blink at the cost of a life safety system. at
least they shouldn't.

Until you've been involved in church work you
wouldn't understand. By the way, by "on staff"
I did not mean to imply "on salary." In our case
these were volunteer staff. We had over 100
people working at any given time but only a few
were paid employees. This is quite common
among growing, modern churches.

This isn't the main point though. The real issue
is whether anyone except a paid alarm installer
can or should install an alarm system. For
several decades I've proven that laymen can
successfully install their own security and fire
alarm systems. This includes commercial as
well as residential systems. You guys can
argue and nitpick all you like but it won't
change the fact that DIY is a valid and growing
portion of the electronic security business.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

In many cases it takes experience to know

what you are fighting. I can't tell you how
many times I have found faulty instructions,
parts etc that frustrate the simplest alarm
installations and repairs...

Yep. That is true. I gwt calls about defective
products as often as paid installers do. Every
so often something is bad out of the box.
That's what warranty service (typically, an
advance replacement from the distributor) is
for.

Just today I was told that a certain keypad
won't work with a certain panel, although the
instructions clearly say it will. The factory is
sending a new chip...

Huh? Are you saying the keypad won't work
with the panel until you upgrade the panel
firmware? If so, that brings up a neat
coincidence. Tonight I walked a client through
upgrading the firmware on his Napco Gemini
system. He's non-technical so it took some
coaching over the phone but he got it done ok.
This was aboout the 30th DIYer in the last
couple of months to upgrade Gemini firmware.

They would not send one to a DIY or probably
even speak to one...

The DIYer doesn't need to speak to the
manufacturer. That's my job. Napco doesn't
have the manpower to coach hundreds of DIY
customers. Instead, they explain to us in the
trade and we teach our customers. I've been
a Napco dealer for more than 25 years and
have never had trouble getting tech support.

The alarm industry in too many cases is not
a mature enough industry for the DIY, even
the most erudite (church goers or not)...

I'm not sure to what immaturity your referring
but the fire alarm industry has been around
since 1852. That was 155 years ago last
month. Is that "mature" enough for you? :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

Hey ..... look dead man........

Where?

Dead or alive your still a piece of shit that
deserves to die.

Not particularly articulate, are you?

And you know damn well that your chances
of recurrence are pretty good...

At this point it's down to abouit 30% which
isn't much worse than the general population.

and usually it's within 5 years and it's fatal...

If it happens it happens. Meanwhile I'm enjoying
every day. How's your life?

Live with it ..... ummmm or should I say ......
die with it.

It'll be one or the other. That's true of everyone,
including you and two others from this newsgroup
who have said similar things. Now there's one
less of you around. I'm still here though.

Just imagining the the terror in your head
is a pleasant and satisfying thought.

Naah. Try visions of sugar plums. :^)

Couldn't happen to a more deserving person.

We're all going to die. Some of us are blessed
with the realization that we ought to do something
about it while we can. Others waste their time
(never realizing how little of it they may have) on
rage. You might want to give some thought to
why Mike is dead. He probably brought the
stroke upon himself with all his hatred and anger.

 

[Robert L Bass]

You started it with your denigration of
Radio Shack...

Oh, come now, Joe. That's ridiculous.

- which I still contend is a good place to
pick up a component or two when you
are in a hurry and where most average
people would go whn presented with questions like this...

Let's see if I understand what you're saying.
A DIYer buys an alarm from an online
company. He reads something in the
manuals that he doesn't understand. His
first stop is Radio Shack???????
That's pretty silly, don't you think?

And no you weren't trying to have a little fun.

OK, I apologize for having fun. I won't let
it happen again. [snerk]

You are historically rude and belittling to
anyone who disagrees with you...

Sorry you feel that way. Is that why you
turned to insults or was it really because
you don't have an answer?

Once again, you are being obtuse.

I thought I was being acute.

Do you understand what sarcasm is?
The comment was sarcasm since anyone
trying to pass off a self inspection around
here would get cited and told to call a
professional.

Which comment -- the one where you
said the inspector agrees with you every
time this happens or the one where you
said it never happens?

There is a valid reason that inspections
are done by third party.

Actually, most fire alarm contracts have the
same company that installed the systrem
doing the routine inspection and testing.
That brings to mind an interesting case I
dealt with some years ago in CT. We were
called to install a burglar alarm in an old
foundry building in Hartford. After the job
was done the owner asked me to look at
the fire alarm system (a very old system
long ago taken over by ADT). There was
a relatively new FACP which ADT had
attached to the client's hardware. It
was working but there were trouble lights
on and the trouble silence was engaged.
The customer said it had been that way
for months, that ADT had visited but not
resolved it.

I found numerous components permanently
shut out, including several waterflows, pull
stations, valve tamper sensors, etc. About
half of the system was not working at all.

I prepared a written report of my findings for
the customer and sent a copy to the fire
marshal. The customer contacted ADT and
they sent out a salesman who offered to
repair everything for several thousand
dollars.

Ths customer told me that ADT was charging
them over $100 a month for monitoring,
inspection and maintenance of this basically
inoperable system.

This was a system that had been routinely
inspected by the largest alarm company in
the business. I'm pretty certain that any of
my DIY customers could have done a better
job.

Note: The local ADT branch in that area
had a reputation for doing work almost as bad
as Sonitrash. Most of the others I've run across
are much better.

I don't expect that you will ever admit that
you are wrong on this one...

Of course not. I'm right and you know it.

so, having said what I wanted to say I shall
stop now. I used to enjoy news group
sparring but lately it is just tedious...

Just because we disagree (and you're wrong)
don't get discouraged. You've been wrong
before and survived. :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

and why we choose this week end was

Yup...

I'll send flowers. What was his name?

about the Edwards guys...

Best you give this one up, Pete. No one
believes you.