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Capacitor Discharging with CMOS Gate

D

Dave Platt

The camera's flash was followed, with no perceptible delay, by a
bright flash _inside_ the chip's lid. Boom. Completely dead chip.
Do not pass Go, do not collect $200, no saving throw possible.

What did they do with the guy?[/QUOTE]

The eyewitness to the event who told me the story, didn't provide that
particular bit of information, quite unfortunately.

I could think of any number of inventive (and no doubt demeaning
and/or painful) things which _might_ have been done.
 
J

John Larkin

On CD4000 logic that is usually the case.

The old 4000A stuff was incredibly fragile this way. The 4000B series
was much better hardened against scr latchup, as is HC and such. Lots
of analog chips and adc/dac types are terrible. National's LM35 is
positively eager to latch.

Maybe just use a 2N7002 to discharge the cap and end the debate?

John
 
J

Joerg

John said:
The old 4000A stuff was incredibly fragile this way. The 4000B series
was much better hardened against scr latchup, as is HC and such. Lots
of analog chips and adc/dac types are terrible. National's LM35 is
positively eager to latch.

In the Motorola 4000B family guide they still explicitly warn about that
latch-up condition. Yes, the B series is more robust but I would not let
a design like this get into production.

Maybe just use a 2N7002 to discharge the cap and end the debate?

Since the OP is tight on board space maybe he could use a BAW56 instead
and run the other cathode to the supply rail. Then the cap would dump
into the rail directly in case of a sag instead of via the output. Or
use a SC75 variety if it has to be really tiny.

Hey, surprise, this thread hasn't turned towards politics :)
 
D

D from BC

The old 4000A stuff was incredibly fragile this way. The 4000B series
was much better hardened against scr latchup, as is HC and such. Lots
of analog chips and adc/dac types are terrible. National's LM35 is
positively eager to latch.

Maybe just use a 2N7002 to discharge the cap and end the debate?

John

In a TO-220 :p Arrrff!
I've been freaked enough to use a decharge resistor.
On the silkscreen I'm labeling the decharge resistor
'PitaR1' :p


D from BC
British Columbia
Canada.
 
J

John Larkin

In a TO-220 :p Arrrff!

SOT-23. About as big as a resistor.

I've been freaked enough to use a decharge resistor.
On the silkscreen I'm labeling the decharge resistor
'PitaR1' :p

If you're concerned about discharge current damaging the gate, that's
not going to happen. If you're worried about latchup, the resistor's
not guaranteed to help.

So there.

John
 
J

Joerg

D said:
In a TO-220 :p Arrrff!
I've been freaked enough to use a decharge resistor.
On the silkscreen I'm labeling the decharge resistor
'PitaR1' :p

Or just use a double diode. Since they come in the same package as
single diodes if you chose SOT23 or SC75 nobody would notice since there
is no extra package :)
 
J

Joerg

John said:
SOT-23. About as big as a resistor.



If you're concerned about discharge current damaging the gate, that's
not going to happen. If you're worried about latchup, the resistor's
not guaranteed to help.

So there.

But a BAW56 would. So there :)
 
C

Clifford Heath

D said:
Afterward, did that developer go to the bar and got drunk?

I built a sonar unit using a UV-erasable MC68HC11, and had ongoing
problems during development with unstable A/D readings... until I
covered the chip :) Seems pretty obvious now, but it was a learning
experience.
 
J

John Larkin

But a BAW56 would. So there :)


OK, I admit I've had too much beer, Maredsous and then Stella, both on
draft, but I can't see how a diode helps either problem.

John
 
D

D from BC

SOT-23. About as big as a resistor.



If you're concerned about discharge current damaging the gate, that's
not going to happen. If you're worried about latchup, the resistor's
not guaranteed to help.

So there.

John

I still recall your 1st response.
That latch up stuff is wayyy beyond my experience.
So I'm getting thrown off..

No chuckle for decharging a little cap with a TO-220? :)
I do have bunch of SOT23 2n7002s if I'm really chicken.


D from BC
British Columbia
Canada.
 
D

D from BC

Or just use a double diode. Since they come in the same package as
single diodes if you chose SOT23 or SC75 nobody would notice since there
is no extra package :)

Model:
14V
signal _| SW1
|-----| \ D1 / R
| | |O--|<-+----/ O--/\/\/-- 14V
+-----|_/ |
| ---
Com --- 10uF
|
Com
Logic
Signal H, SW1 open
Signal L, SW1 closed

Interesting...
Make D1 2 diodes from 1 package. The extra Vdrop may help.


D from BC
British Columbia
Canada.
 
J

John Devereux

Driving the output of a logic gate too far outside the rail voltage
can trigger a latchup. This can happen with as little as one
diode-drop of excessive voltage. The overvoltage/spike has the effect
of activating a "parasitic" structure on the die (a set of P/N
junctions not normally part of the circuit, but created in part as a
side effect of the way the die is fabricated). If you're unlucky, the
parasitic junctions form a PNPN structure, a.k.a. a thyristor or SCR.
The spike "turns on" this thyristor, and it begins acting as a short
circuit which often can't be reset by any means less drastic than
turning off the power entirely.

If the source of the overvoltage has enough charge it and a low enough
impedance, the resulting current flow through the parasitic can
destroy the chip.

I heard a tale some years ago about an incident involving a new,
prototype RISC CPU. The first silicon had just come back from the
fab, in one of the special ceramic packages with a quartz lid (to
allow for inspection of the chip). Chip was carefully powered up, and
lo and behold it worked! One of the developers was so proud that he
whipped out a camera and took a photo of the chip in the development
board.

Bad move. The camera's flash fired. The flash emitted enough UV
(which went through the flash's lens, and through the clear quartz lid
of the chip) to cause photoelectric-effect activation of a bunch of
the exposed gates on the surface of the chip - a bunch of electrons
got knocked loose by the bright light. A whole bunch of parasitic
thyristor structures turned on, and (in effect) short-circuited the
power supply to ground on multiple places on the chip.

The camera's flash was followed, with no perceptible delay, by a
bright flash _inside_ the chip's lid. Boom. Completely dead chip.
Do not pass Go, do not collect $200, no saving throw possible.

:) I've seen a machine driven by a 8749 (EPROM microcontroller)
crash due to a camera flash - but it didn't destroy itself!
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

OK, I admit I've had too much beer, Maredsous and then Stella, both on
draft, but I can't see how a diode helps either problem.

John

A Shottky to Vdd would be better.. that one would probably still allow
significant current through the ESD network.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Model:
14V
signal _| SW1
|-----| \ D1 / R
| | |O--|<-+----/ O--/\/\/-- 14V
+-----|_/ |
| ---
Com --- 10uF
|
Com
Logic
Signal H, SW1 open
Signal L, SW1 closed

Interesting...
Make D1 2 diodes from 1 package. The extra Vdrop may help.


D from BC
British Columbia
Canada.

Hunh? That didoe won't help latch-up. You could put one betwen the 14V
and 'Vdd', maybe with 1K in parallel



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jim said:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:14:43 GMT, Joerg

[snip]
If VCC briefly dips for some reason and the cap had enough charge the
whole thing might go into latch-up. That would not be cool.

Actually that WOULD be cool ;-)

...Jim Thompson


An open-drain-output would most likely be safe, since their ESD is
usually only an N-channel device, thus not path to VDD.

...Jim Thompson

He could insert an SD from C (+) to Vdd, depending on the application,
the small signal SD reverse leakage may even ameliorate the C
self-discharge a bit, and the low VF will not even turn on his output
diode, which could be a 1N4148.
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Dave said:
Driving the output of a logic gate too far outside the rail voltage
can trigger a latchup. This can happen with as little as one
diode-drop of excessive voltage.

Right, old news. That parasitic SCR to the substrate is activated by a
distributed ohmic drop turning on a PN junction and will require 100s of
milliamps if not more.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Right, old news. That parasitic SCR to the substrate is activated by a
distributed ohmic drop turning on a PN junction and will require 100s of
milliamps if not more.

More like 10's of milliamps.

It's a variable number highly dependent on manufacturer and care of
the designer in applying "well stops".

I've harangued about this before, followed by "put-downs" by those of
you who think you know; but plain and simple it's BAD engineering
practice.

...Jim Thompson
 
J

John Larkin

Right, old news. That parasitic SCR to the substrate is activated by a
distributed ohmic drop turning on a PN junction and will require 100s of
milliamps if not more.

Most HC-type parts are spec'd for 50 mA ESD current. Some will latch
at higher currents, some never. Some other parts, especially
mixed-signal stuff, can be triggered by sub-mA currents. I have a
product with a DAC7734 surrounded with diodes to keep it from
latching.

If you pull microamps out of an LM35 signal pin (to measure negative
temps, as the datasheet suggests) before you apply Vcc, it will
usually latch. The older CD4000's would latch from tiny dc currents or
spikes.

The newer Xilinx chips seem happy with all the current an ESD diode
could reasonably stand.

John
 
J

Joerg

D said:
Model:
14V
signal _| SW1
|-----| \ D1 / R
| | |O--|<-+----/ O--/\/\/-- 14V
+-----|_/ |
| ---
Com --- 10uF
|
Com
Logic
Signal H, SW1 open
Signal L, SW1 closed

Interesting...
Make D1 2 diodes from 1 package. The extra Vdrop may help.

No, thaddaway:

14V
signal _|
|-----| \ BAW56
| | |O--|<-+->|--- 14V
+-----|_/ |
| ---
Com --- 10uF
|
Com


Hope it worked, had to copy your ASCII art and edit with keyboard.
 
J

John Larkin

More like 10's of milliamps.

It's a variable number highly dependent on manufacturer and care of
the designer in applying "well stops".

I've harangued about this before, followed by "put-downs" by those of
you who think you know; but plain and simple it's BAD engineering
practice.

...Jim Thompson


Is not bad practice if the mfr guarantees the latchup current, which
is typically 50 mA when they do. I haven't seen a standard cmos logic
product (HC/HCT, even the HC405x analog multiplexers) latch, ever.

Most of the HC muxes have another shoot-through issue if you overdrive
the inputs, but that doesn't latch.

John
 
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