Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Can a 6v light bulb blow a 12v transformer

Hi there,
I have a client who purchased an MR11 10W 6V light bulb from us. She put it in her hood vent light sockets and now her transformer is blown. Her electrician is saying it was the lightbulb... because she put a 6v light bulb into a socket that has a 12v transformer attached,

Is this true??
 
Hi Erika and welcome to the forum!

Possible I suppose, but more likely it would blow the light bulb than the transformer.

Bob
 
Hi there,
I have a client who purchased an MR11 10W 6V light bulb from us. She put it in her hood vent light sockets and now her transformer is blown. Her electrician is saying it was the lightbulb... because she put a 6v light bulb into a socket that has a 12v transformer attached,

Is this true??
Can't rule it out as being true, but BobK is right... it would have most likely popped the bulb... very very quickly.
It would be nice to know what the 12V transformer is rated for. The electrician or manufacturer of the hood fan could have cheaped out on the transformer and bought something that was 'just barely good enough' for the factory bulbs.
 
Depends on the va rating of the transformer. (Power rating).

That 10w light draws 1.67amps at 6volts, but current doubles to 3.3amps at 12v, and your 10w lamp is now consuming 40watts at 12volts. The lamp will not last long but it is certainly not a good idea to overload the circuit.
 
Or the bulb was not fitted properly and the transformer was shorted. I blew a fuse on my car when I tried to change a bulb with the power on.
 
Most of your small low voltage transformers, can handle momentarily shorting of the secondary. More than likely, the windings failed because of overloading, which resulted in overheating and then eventually the windings shorted out internally.
 
I've taken a 12v car globe up to 22v

the bulb worked, but to be safe I only did it for a few seconds, it sounds plausible the bulb could have maxed the amp current rating of the transformer...
 
The op said "her hood vent light socket", not a car. There is usually no fuse on secondary side of circuits like this.
In a pinch, I might use a 6volt lamp that was rated 5 watts or less on a 12v hood, provided the light socket was rated for 20 watts (va) or more.
 
I'll also join BobK's camp - very unlikely. As to possible, well maybe it just could have been the final straw, or final bit of a straw for a transformer already on its way out..

If there had been a drastic difference in the current carrying capacity of the wires (filament vs transformer wire) maybe a bulb could blow a transformer. But you have to consider that when the correct bulb is in place, the transformer wire has to operate continuously without its temperature rising from ambient (say 20degC) to a dangerous level (100degC ?*). Even a doubling of current (which should not happen here - see below) should not raise its temperature to more than 180degC, dangerous, but well below the 1000degC Mp of Cu.

I would disagree with the comment, "10w light draws 1.67amps at 6volts, but current doubles to 3.3amps at 12v." Because filaments heat up (a lot!) their resistance increases significantly with current. So when you double the voltage, the current does not double. I think one would need to look at the specific bulb to calculate the increase accurately, but Lumitron says, "Current consumption is approximately proportional to the 0.55 power of the ratio of applied voltage versus the rated voltage." Which would suggest the current increases by about 46% to 2.4A for the 10W bulb mentioned.

(*) Just for good measure, even if the normal safe working temp were the famous Fahrenheit 451, this calculation keeps the temperature of the overloaded copper wire below 445degC, less than half the MP of Cu.
 
You bring up a valid point that filament resistance changes with temperature. But, the fact remains that the circuit was overloaded. Whether the current increased by 47% or 50%, it is still a significant increase. When a small xfomer like this fails, temperature does not have to instantly reach the 1000deg Mp of Cu. Rather, It only has to reach a few hundred degrees to breakdown the (often plastic) insulation before the catastrophic failure of the wire follows.

In the op, the Electrician said; The wrong lamp caused the xfomer to fail.
I agree with him.
 
Yes, we all have our own opinions. It would be interesting to see the electricians detailed calculations which led him to that conclusion. Perhaps I'd be convinced?
 
Not so LOL myself - I'm always unhappy about the cost of electricians! (Though I do sympathise with them. They seem to spend more time going on expensive courses to update their certification and knowledge of the regs, than they spend working. So the bill has to cover all those costs.)

But on the serious point, of course I didn't think that he had done any calculations. So if he has not done the calculations, why is his opinion any more reliable than mine or yours or Bob or Gryd? AFAIK this topic does not appear in IEEE regs and I've never noticed it in any other reference. Maybe it's experience - he's seen this issue before? I haven't, but I'm sure he has a lot more experience than me. Otherwise it's back to working it out from first principles, & calculations.

Obviously we are taking the electrician here to be an "expert witness". But should we expect him to have expertise on this issue? I don't think this is what electricians are trained to do or know about. Why would he need to know that in his ordinary work? His job is to do things correctly, to know correct procedures and to recognise bad practice. I would expect him to know that the correct bulb should be used, but not necessarily to know how it would fail.
 
Well I can speak of that first hand because I'm a Master Electrician.
Continuing education is a requirement (varies by state in USA) but costs are not unreasonable. It may seem expensive up front but an Electrician will often do the job cheaper than doing it yourself, because he has the experience to better plan and implement the job.
I agree he probably did not calculate it because his experience and common sense told him to look at the load connected to the transformer. Why is his opinion more important? Because he is an expert at what he does.
Yes, Electricians are trained for exactly this kind of thing, so they can safely design and install electrical equipment and systems.
The scope of an electrician is vast and not every one knows everything, but a electrician couldn't get thru one year of an apprenticeship or university without knowing this (basic ohms law) let alone get a journeyman license.
 
Two other factors may have a bearing on the failure: inrush current and the fact that those transformers sometimes have a thermal overload fuse built into the wraps of the windings.
 
Yes the inrush current is certainly worth thinking about. With a 6V instead of a 12V bulb, presumably the inrush current could also be double.
Inrush is pretty certainly the time when filaments fail, but why do they fail due to this current, when they have happily survived it for thousands of previous starts?
Normally inrush current is not a problem. Current in itself is not harmful to metals. It is the heating effect that can be a problem. The inrush current may be many times larger than the rated current, but it exists for only a very short time. The heat generated is proportional to both the size of the current (much higher during inrush) and to the duration (very much shorter than the duration of the rated current.) So even though the inrush may be 10 to 20x the rated current, I believe the filament does not rise above its normal operating temperature during inrush.
That is on average though. I think failure comes when the filament is no longer uniform. Then it will behave as a series of smaller filaments. If one of these filaments is much thinner than average, it will (at any current) generate more heat than the others and therefore reach higher temperature than the others. Eventually, when it became thin enough, this would cause it to heat above MP even at rated current.
During inrush it suffers disproportionately. Being thinner it heats up faster than the rest. Its resistance increases faster than the rest. The heat generated per mm is much greater and it heats up even faster. So before it is bad enough to fail in constant use, it will be bad enough to fail during inrush.
Why does it get worse during its life? There must be random variations in the original filament. Anywhere it is even slightly thinner or higher resistivity than average will be overheating all the time. Just a little during continuous use and a lot more during each inrush cycle. That excess heating will increase the rate of loss of filament (by evaporation I think, though not sure) at that point and increase the non-uniformity.

So what is the significance of this for the poor old transformer?
It must be designed to cope with the normal inrush current pulses. And that would not be a difficult design requirement. The inrush pulse is very short and the thermal inertia of a transformer wire is enormously greater than that of the filament, so it will hardly notice the inrush effect. All wound components are well used to inrush currents and it is always the associated circuitry - switches and fuses - which suffer. The transformer or motor never even notice. Current only damages them through heat and thermal inertia prevents that for short periods (in the case of large motors, inrush may be many seconds, but it's still the fuses and switchgear which burn out.)
Secondly, there is no mechanism for the non-uniform deterioration. The wire of a transformer may get slightly warm, but it never reaches the sort of levels where metal will evaporate or even melt a little. Of course a transformer ages and deteriorates - due to vibration, thermal cycling (albeit quite small differences), chemical change in insulators, whatever. Eventually perhaps it reaches some sort of failure mode and as it approaches that inevitable end, it is likely to fail at a moment of peak stress. But that stress is not the real cause of failure.

Its like someone driving a rusty old banger over a speed bump and trying to sue the council because his door falls off. Normal well maintained cars drive over it all day long without ill effect and many do so at twice the speed limit. Only a car already in seriously bad condition is likely to suffer.
 
Yes, inrush current could be a contributing factor, but the smoking gun in this example is the wrong size lamp.
We are all speculating because we don't know the actual transformer used here.
It may be an electronic type for all we know. We don't know if they switch the primary side, or the secondary side of it.
If the primary side is switched, the inrush is still likely under 10amps considering a 8:1 ratio. If the secondary is switched I would be even less concerned.

"Inrush is pretty certainly the time when filaments fail, but why do they fail due to this current, when they have happily survived it for thousands of previous starts? "

Because after the inrush current surge the reactance causes a current spike that the lamp can't handle. A fillament or fuse for that matter, wear a little bit every time they are loaded or cycled until they ultimately fail. This peak is when they do so.
 
Top