Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Calibration Of Electronic Equipment In The Home Workshop

R

Rich Grise

And that is *exactly* what i proposed with the "trick"; place the DVM
on the 200mVFS scale, add a shunt 1.11Meg resistor (that means in
parallel; use the dictionary) across the meter and the sensitivity of this
network is 200nAFS.
Simple ohms law...

And cover everything in the lab with aluminum foil, so your body
capacitance doesn't zap your meter first time out. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
J

Jim Yanik

And that is *exactly* what i proposed with the "trick"; place the DVM
on the 200mVFS scale, add a shunt 1.11Meg resistor (that means in
parallel; use the dictionary) across the meter and the sensitivity of
this network is 200nAFS.
Simple ohms law...

After reading all this,I checked the $3 DMM I bought at a Harbor Freight
sidewalk sale,and it turns out the *input Z is only ONE megohm*. YUK!

I only bought it as a 2nd DMM,for monitoring PS outputs and the like.
The manual did not list that particular spec,either....
 
R

Robert Baer

Rich said:
And cover everything in the lab with aluminum foil, so your body
capacitance doesn't zap your meter first time out. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
Why?
I made that shunt box and use it on occasions where i need to measure
low currents, and have seen no problems whether i use it with my 3.5
digit DMM or my 4.5 digit DMM.
 
R

Robert Baer

Jim said:
After reading all this,I checked the $3 DMM I bought at a Harbor Freight
sidewalk sale,and it turns out the *input Z is only ONE megohm*. YUK!

I only bought it as a 2nd DMM,for monitoring PS outputs and the like.
The manual did not list that particular spec,either....
I bet it also does not state the input Z onthe current scales, or the
current(s) to be expected on the resistance scales.
OTH, most meter manuals leave out most of those (significant, at
times) details.
 
A

Anthony Fremont

ehsjr said:
Take a look at the specs. They most certainly
do change, depending on the scale you are using.
Read the Fluke app note Understanding DMM Specifications.
Noise becomes a significant factor at the low end of a
range within the meter, and in general when measuring very
small voltage or current. And the specs, regardless of
noise, vary from range to range.

http://assets.fluke.com/datasheets/2153ExtSpecs.pdf

http://us.fluke.com/usen/support/ap...ukeProducts)&parent=APP_NOTES(FlukeProducts)#

According to the specs, the accuracy is a percentage of the reading that is
being observed. I take that to mean that at small readings, you have an
equivalently small error since it's a percentage (well...+ uncertainty
digits which never changes and is certainly a large part of the reading when
trying to measure 50nA). Hence the 30-70nA expected reading. Now that I've
read the manual, I see that their marketing material was a little optimistic
on the number of digits in current mode. Turns out to be 20 and not 2 like
the marketing slick says, hmmm..... is there no truth in advertising
anymore? At least there is a delta button to erase away the noise reading
of about 10nA after it settles down.

I would hope that the days of needing to keep things in the upper third of
the scale went out with the analog meters. But aparently they haven't. I
was looking at the manual and they mention that true RMS readings are
specified over 5% - 100% range. Tell me what this means: "Maximum Crest
Factor <5:1 at full scale, <10:1 at half scale" and then they add some extra
that makes it sound like they are only referring to AC signals that are
non-sinusoidal with that.

Ok, I see what you are saying. To get accuracy on
that scale, you would need at least 6 digits displayed,
and that's before you consider any error in the
circuitry. But I now undertsnd what you have in
mind based on what you said at the bottom of your
note, where a reading of anything from .03 ua
to .07 ua will meet your needs for your .05 ua
current. That's not the accuracy I thought you
were talking about. A +/- 20 nA variation on a
50 nA measurement is an error of 40 percent - which
I call innacurate.

And you're right, it is inaccurate when you look at it like that.
Fortunately by using the delta button or just a little quick math to
subtract the idle reading, I can obtain what I need. Sort of.... ;-)
But now that I understand what you have in mind,
I see your point. The way I was thinking about
it was too stringent for the example you posted,
so your example does prove the case of a kind
of measurement that fits into the under tens of
mA that I was talking about. Now that I understand
what you are saying, I think the confusion was at my end.



That statement clears it up for me, as I mentioned above.
To me it's a 40% error, but for what you are doing it
is accurate.


I'd like to - if you have a handy url, please post it.
If not handy, don't go digging for it. All ths talk
has piqued my interest in buying yet another DMM
(that I don't need - too many DMM's not enough time)
or at least drooling over the specs.

Sorry about that, here you go:
http://www.extech.com/instrument/products/alpha/MM560_570.html

Is there an antidote for "test equipment lust"?

Not that I can see.
No, I did. I thought you were talking about meter accuracy
when you said 10% - you were talking about measurement
error.

Go ahead - make me drool! Enjoy the meter. :)
And the scope. :)

Got it today, I like it so far. :) See the new thread on the Extech vs.
Micronta shootout.
 
M

MassiveProng

It's called trollbaiting. There's kind of a hierarchy of baiters: You
start out as an apprentice baiter, and if you're good enough, you make
journeyman baiter, and if you're really, really good, you might make
master.

Your dumb shit is as old as grandma's hills and just as weak.

Your doc needs to up the Lithium dose, dipshit.
 
M

MassiveProng

And that is *exactly* what i proposed with the "trick"; place the DVM
on the 200mVFS scale, add a shunt 1.11Meg resistor (that means in
parallel; use the dictionary) across the meter and the sensitivity of
this network is 200nAFS.
Simple ohms law...


Simple Ohms's law also states that when you series that mess with
your circuit under test, all the voltage will drop on your precious
resistor/meter set-up , and there won't be any in the circuit you wish
to examine.

In other words, dumbass, the reason that shunts are of low ohmic
value is so they do not modify the circuit you are attempting to
examine.

Your stupid shit certainly would do just that. Your lack of
understanding that a current meter needs to be of low resistance is
quite a tell as well. You must be a digital guy, and seemingly not a
very good one to miss this basic.
 
M

MassiveProng

*That* would explain the screen-name he is using...


Idiot! The GriseTard is declaring that HE is a trollbaiter.

Go play in traffic. Oh... that's right... you are.
 
M

MassiveProng

Take a look at the specs. They most certainly
do change, depending on the scale you are using.
Read the Fluke app note Understanding DMM Specifications.
Noise becomes a significant factor at the low end of a
range within the meter, and in general when measuring very
small voltage or current. And the specs, regardless of
noise, vary from range to range.


This is why when I use a meter to measure current, I use very short,
huge gauge 14Ga SPC leads. When I measure low voltages, I twist the
meter leads together to cancel any local "injection" sources.

Trust me, both methods have a positive effect. Typical meter leads
are very small ga, and are a poor choice for current measure as there
is an error introduced by the lead resistances. Twisted meter leads
most certainly do cancel out local disturbances that could render your
readings in error. Both practices work well.
 
M

MassiveProng

And cover everything in the lab with aluminum foil, so your body
capacitance doesn't zap your meter first time out. ;-)

You're an idiot, and this is not a useful, relevant, or practical
post.
 
M

MassiveProng

I bet it also does not state the input Z onthe current scales

You are truly clueless.

Typically two groups of scaling, and two shunt resistors, one for
each group.

BOTH VERY LOW resistance.
 
A

Anthony Fremont

MassiveProng said:
Simple Ohms's law also states that when you series that mess with
your circuit under test, all the voltage will drop on your precious
resistor/meter set-up , and there won't be any in the circuit you wish
to examine.

Really now. And I thought that Ohm's Law stated that the voltage would be
split up in a predictable way.
In other words, dumbass, the reason that shunts are of low ohmic
value is so they do not modify the circuit you are attempting to
examine.

Stupid me, I thought they were for fire prevention.
Your stupid shit certainly would do just that. Your lack of
understanding that a current meter needs to be of low resistance is
quite a tell as well. You must be a digital guy, and seemingly not a
very good one to miss this basic.

You really aren't getting it are you? This is about measuring very small
currents, the large resistance doesn't have to drop any significant voltage.
I can't believe you have such an inept understanding of Ohm's law that you
keep harping about. The world is not all about 200A and 15kV there are
people getting things done with nanowatts of power. Just think about it,
how much voltage drop do you get with 50nA thru a .01Ohm resistor? How
would you measure 500 femtovolts? You have no concept of scale.
 
M

MassiveProng

Really now. And I thought that Ohm's Law stated that the voltage would be
split up in a predictable way.


It will, dumbass. Most of it will be on his 1 M Ohm SERIES "shunt"
(Bwuahahahahah). That means there wont be much left for the circuit.
Can you really be that fucking stupid?

If you are at 5Volts and passing 2 amps in a circuit, and add a 1M
resistor in series with it, what do YOU think happens to the voltage
presented to that ten ohm loading?

Oh and it wouldn't just drop voltage. The current that the circuit
WAS used to seeing will be a lot less as well.

Ohm's law INDEED!
 
M

MassiveProng

Stupid me, I thought they were for fire prevention.

Stupid you indeed. That's not what the INLINE fuse is for, dipshit.
It is in the meter, but is there to limit the voltage presented to the
meter mechanism or when current is being shunted through the resistor.

The shunt has nothing to do with fire prevention. They are a
precision shunt meant to provide a precision voltage to a high
impedance volt meter such that it can provide the user with a reading
of the current in the circuit that it was placed into WITHOUT
modifying the operation of the circuit.

Your 1 M setup would NOT qualify for a device that does NOT modify
the circuity to a great degree. It would qualify as a device that so
badly modifies the circuit being tested that it no longer represents
the circuit that was originally given.
 
R

Robert Baer

Anthony said:
Really now. And I thought that Ohm's Law stated that the voltage would be
split up in a predictable way.




Stupid me, I thought they were for fire prevention.




You really aren't getting it are you? This is about measuring very small
currents, the large resistance doesn't have to drop any significant voltage.
I can't believe you have such an inept understanding of Ohm's law that you
keep harping about. The world is not all about 200A and 15kV there are
people getting things done with nanowatts of power. Just think about it,
how much voltage drop do you get with 50nA thru a .01Ohm resistor? How
would you measure 500 femtovolts? You have no concept of scale.
I gave p ersponding to him a while back as being a useless waste of time.
 
R

Robert Baer

Anthony said:
Really now. And I thought that Ohm's Law stated that the voltage would be
split up in a predictable way.




Stupid me, I thought they were for fire prevention.




You really aren't getting it are you? This is about measuring very small
currents, the large resistance doesn't have to drop any significant voltage.
I can't believe you have such an inept understanding of Ohm's law that you
keep harping about. The world is not all about 200A and 15kV there are
people getting things done with nanowatts of power. Just think about it,
how much voltage drop do you get with 50nA thru a .01Ohm resistor? How
would you measure 500 femtovolts? You have no concept of scale.
I gave up responding to him a while back as being a useless waste of
time.
 
E

ehsjr

Jim said:
After reading all this,I checked the $3 DMM I bought at a Harbor Freight
sidewalk sale,and it turns out the *input Z is only ONE megohm*. YUK!

But that's the greatest "extra" meter since sliced bread.
Seriously. It costs next to nothing, so you are not afraid
of abusing it, which means you can toss it in your tool box
or your glove box or the trunk. If you fry it, drop it, the
dog eats it, aliens from the UFO beam it up and disect it,
whatever, it is essentially no loss. You treat (or should
treat) your "real" meter far more kindly, and use it when
you need more confidence in your measurements. That Harbor
Freight meter is surprizingly accurate, in the sense that
you expect that a $3.00 meter just _has_ to be way out of
whack. It's not. If you absolutely have to know the exact
number, you wouldn't use it - you'd measure with your "real"
meter. But for most of the measurements people make with a
DMM, the $3.00 meter is fine. And that $3.00 includes the
9v battery!
I only bought it as a 2nd DMM,for monitoring PS outputs and the like.
The manual did not list that particular spec,either....

Perfect use for that meter. :)

Ed
 
D

doug

Jim said:
After reading all this,I checked the $3 DMM I bought at a Harbor Freight
sidewalk sale,and it turns out the *input Z is only ONE megohm*. YUK!

I only bought it as a 2nd DMM,for monitoring PS outputs and the like.
The manual did not list that particular spec,either....
That is 333 kohms per dollar. That is a lot cheaper than the 10 kohms
per dollar my hp34401s cost. I have a bunch of these for 30th -40th
meters. (You cannot be serious about second meter). It is necessary
to have a meter within arm's reach anywhere you are in the house. Also
a digital caliper. We used to have three optical monochromators on the
end table in the living room. They were handy when you wanted to check
the spectrum of a new fluorescent bulb.

The cheap meters are accurate encough for a lot of work and you do not
care if they get broken. It is always a shock to my system to see how
cheaply things can be sold.
 
A

Anthony Fremont

MassiveProng said:
It will, dumbass. Most of it will be on his 1 M Ohm SERIES "shunt"
(Bwuahahahahah). That means there wont be much left for the circuit.
Can you really be that fucking stupid?

Can you???? You just can't accept the facts of this can you?
If you are at 5Volts and passing 2 amps in a circuit, and add a 1M
resistor in series with it, what do YOU think happens to the voltage
presented to that ten ohm loading?

Do you know how to calculate it? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 50nA YOU MORON. Now
get with the program or just STFU.
Oh and it wouldn't just drop voltage. The current that the circuit
WAS used to seeing will be a lot less as well.

Ohm's law INDEED!

50nA you idiot. DO THE MATH!
 
A

Anthony Fremont

Anthony said:
50nA you idiot. DO THE MATH!

BTW, I'm surprised you didn't have anything to say about my Extech/Micronta
Shootout thread? I did some resistance measurements and the Micronta is
right on with way less than 1% difference. Drifted to another plane, ha ha
ha >15 years old and still within 1% on most functions. HA HA HA HA Wrong
again DM.
 
Top