Best place to buy parts for those of us who don't have a dealers license ?

[Stanley Barthfarkle]

So, do you "visualize" each motion sensor placement, or do you train each
customer in the art of motion sensor placement? You know, mirrors, windows,
vents, where the motion is looking in relation to the rising/setting sun,
etc..

Do you "visualize" the Smoke detector placement, so that it will actually
perform as desired? Oh wait- you can't, because you can't see the premises
and it's unseen variables.

I agree that a certain percentage can, (or just will) do their own installs.
I would, even if I wasn't an alarm guy. I also agree that many systems will
work just fine, though you and I both know the ratio of problems
exponentially increases as planning and experience decrease, whether you
care to admit it or not. Where we thoroughly disagree is that you believe
anyone can do it and get the desired result, time after time. I caution
folks to get direct professional "eyes-on" advice for at least the planning
stages of the system, before selling them DIY products. You seem to feel
that selling them products for a sight-unseen application with telephone
support only (which is better than none, granted) is "just as good" as a
professional installation. You know better, Robert.

 

[Robert L Bass]

So, do you "visualize" each motion sensor placement, or

do you train each customer in the art of motion sensor
placement?

It's not an art. It's simple logic. Don't point motion
detectors at windows, stairs or stuff that's going to cause
problems. Do place motion detectors where the thief is likely to
move, such as a bedroom hallway, the vicinity of the hi-fi
equipment and, for most of my customers, near the computer.

You know, mirrors, windows, vents, where the motion is
looking in relation to the rising/setting sun, etc..

I can and do explain that much over the phone. Your average
primate knows what a window or mirror looks like. :^)

Do you "visualize" the Smoke detector placement, so that
it will actually perform as desired?

Smoke detector placement is simple enough in the average
residence. Don't put them in the garage, furnace room, attic,
kitchen, etc. Do place at least one on every residential level
(ie, not the attic), at the top of the stairs and at the bottom
of the basement stairs. Place one within 12 feet outside bedroom
doors but stay 5 feet (a bit more than NFPA minimum) from
bathrooms with showers or tubs, laundry room and kitchen. Stay
away from air vents. On new construction and wherever possible
in existing homes place a smoke in each sleeping room.

There are other issues such as sloped ceilings which I determine
over the phone.

Oh wait- you can't, because you can't see the premises
and it's unseen variables.

I can learn as much as is needed to spec a fire alarm system for
just about any job without ever seeing the premises. On new
construction and on most commercial fire alarms, I ask for plans.
I learned to read prints over 25 years ago and can spec a fire
system from them or from architectural drawings when necessary.

I agree that a certain percentage can, (or just will) do their
own installs. I would, even if I wasn't an alarm guy. I also
agree that many systems will work just fine, though you and
I both know the ratio of problems exponentially increases as
planning and experience decrease, whether you care to admit
it or not.

You've said a mouthful there. The fact is that I've been
spec'ing alarms longer than most salesmen you'll meet and can
easily see potential problems that most younger salesmen don't
even think about -- without ever visiting the site. That comes
with years of planning, installing and servicing alarms.
Consider the number of times techs post complaints here about
idiot salesmen specifying work that either can't be done or (more
often) in ways that no sane technician would consider doing it.

I know that there are plenty of online dealers who will sell the
customer anything just to make a buck without a second thought as
to the level of protection the client will get. Many employ
telephone sales clerks with no background in security at all.
Remember that moron who came here bragging that he was selling
the finest magnetic contacts in the industry yet refused to
disclose who the manufacturer was? It turned out he was pushing
Tane (ugh). I try to provide solid hardware and I offer advice
based on many years in the trade -- far more than most here. In
doing so I'm able to give customers more than just parts.

Where we thoroughly disagree is that you believe anyone can
do it and get the desired result, time after time...

Not *anyone* -- only those with a bit of tool skill and the
willingness to take a little time learning how to accomplish the
task. Remember, DIY is probably less than 2% of the security
market. The vast majority of clients cannot and should not
install their own systems. For example, my father is 85 years
old. He has a near genius IQ and a mater's in engineering.
However, he has neither the interest nor the willingness to learn
how to do the job.

OTOH, there are (and we both know this) plenty of incompetent,
uncaring slobs in this industry who should never be allowed to
hold a screwdriver, much less pull cable through someone's home.
Remember the fellow from California who posted pictures of the
damage some Protection One dealer did when they pierced the DWV
stack (for those unfamiliar, that's the "poop pipe"). His walls
and ceiling were literally soaked with sewage.

... You seem to feel that selling them products for a
sight-unseen application with telephone support only
(which is better than none, granted) is "just as good"
as a professional installation...

It's often better than what some of these nimrods consider a
"professional" installation. It's always better than dealing
with an online dealer who provides no tech support at all like
several of the characters Olson recommends.

You know better, Robert.

Indeed I do. Continue doing the best darned installations you
can and taking proper care of your clients. I do the same for my
DIY customers. Their jobs may not be the same quality as yours
(I prefer to assume the best) but the work will be better than
many and much better than a few "professionals." That's not by
any stretch intended as a slight to true professionals. But
let's face it. Buying a professionally installed alarm system
isn't what it used to be. For the customer it's a crap shoot
hoping they've chosen someone honest and competent. Sometimes
you're the windshield; sometimes you're the bug. Sometimes
you're the Louisville slugger; sometimes you're the ball."

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[Stanley Barthfarkle]

Good reply. My point is stands, though. How many times have you seen a smoke
detector right next to an attic fan? Or right outside a bathroom door?
(Steamy shower, anyone?)

Sounds like you're making a good attempt at educating the average person the
best you can, helping to plan the system with them, which is commendable.
But to say that those installations are every bit as comprehensively
designed as one you or I would design if we had access to the premises, and
the myriad of variables each premises presents, is inaccurate.

I'm not anti-DIY. I am
anti-telling-them-it's-exactly-the-same-so-I-can-make-a-profit. It's my
reponsibility as an alarm professional to inform my customers of their
options, and point out things which help maximize their level of protection.
Most DIY'ers are already convinced that they ARE going to do it themselves,
so the only thing I can do is give them the information that they need in a
non-judgemental way. The only way to get the best system possible for a
DIY'er, is to have a qualified person design it by visiting the site. This
is also important information that they need to hear- we kmow they aren't
going to follow it, but it's my responsibility to tell them, because it's
what I believe.

 

[Crash Gordon]

"-)...
I only install the ones I feel like doing. I've gotten really selective in
my old age. If a cllient is a pain in the butt I won't take the job.

Did a real nice one today up in the mountains a referral by someone herein.
Nice client, nice trip, nice install, good money.




|> A while back I had done a quote for home CCTV, quite extensive system.
Gave
| > the guy my proposal and he calls back the next day and starts quoting
prices
| > out of the ADI catalog, saying that he was not going to allow me to make
| > "that much money" on the system. He'd called ADI and told them he worked
for
| > me and went by one of the branches and picked up a cat. with prices.
| > Needless to say I ripped that branch a new asshole...then I told the
client
| > that if he thought it was so easy to install the equipment he could just
do
| > it himself...which he did..or actually he tried. A couple of weeks later
he
| > paid me HOURLY to redo everything he tried to do properly.
|
| That guy got what he deserved -- not for DIYing the job but for
| taking advantage of you and ADI. In this case, one can
| understand ADI's error. The guy smooth talked them. At least
| they didn't offer to open account for him.
|
| Crash, I don't have anything against installers making a fair
| price for their work, their hardware and their knowledge. Guys
| like you and I try to give people what they pay for. But if you
| stop and look at it carefully, the ones doing most of the whining
| here about DIY are the unskilled "professionals" who cheat their
| clients, lie to make the sale, do slovenly work and (often) bend
| the client over a five-year contract that would do old Slew Foot
| proud. The true professionals don't give a rat's Olson about
| DIY. They figure that DIY customers are not their market and
| concentrate on the 98% who are.
|
| It's the same for me. I have no problem with most people hiring
| a pro to do an installation for them. Heck, I occasionally refer
| customers to professional installers. I've referred customers to
| Jim Rojas on occasion and he made good money doing the work. I
| also used to refer people to Worthless until he started behaving
| like a fool in the newsgroup.
|
| The point is there are distinct segments of the security
| marketplace. Few, if any, companies are equipped to deal with
| all of them. Bob Campbell is respected by every technician in
| this forum (well, except one moron from Brooklyn with a penchant
| for assaulting children with hammers). He tried servicing the
| DIY market and for various reasons it didn't work for him. No
| problem. I owned a small but modestly successful alarm company
| for ~24 years until I sold it. At this stage of life I have zero
| interest in starting a new installation business. I'll leave
| that to guys like you.
|
| --
|
| Regards,
| Robert L Bass
|
| Bass Burglar Alarms
| The Online DIY Store
| http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
|

 

[Robert L Bass]

Good reply. My point is stands, though. How many times have you seen a smoke
detector right next to an attic fan? Or right outside a bathroom door?
(Steamy shower, anyone?)

I've lost count. Every time it was a professionally installed
system. I *always* explain to DIYers why they should not do
that.

Sounds like you're making a good attempt at educating the
average person the best you can, helping to plan the system
with them, which is commendable.

Thanks. I do the best I can. From what you've said so far, it
appears you've got a similar attitude toward your side of the
trade. That's the way it's supposed to be.

But to say that those installations are every bit as compre-
hensively designed as one you or I would design if we had
access to the premises, and the myriad of variables each
premises presents, is inaccurate.

How many times have you planned a job from prints long before the
home was built? I can't speak for others but I've done so
hundreds of times over the years. I use the same parameters in
evaluating prints and plans for a customer as I used to when
planning my own installations.

Sometimes things change though. The customer may decide to
change a window out for French doors (are we now supposed to call
them "freedom" doors? :^)). Sometimes a window is added where
none was planned. Just as I would when planning my own job, I
tell clients that if they change the job after I spec it out they
need to consult with me to make certain their changes won't
negatively affect the alarm system.

I'm not anti-DIY...

That was not my read. You sound like you sincerely believe in
what you do. That portends good for your clients. Regardless
what certain moron "professionals" who've never met either of us
may say, I do the same.

Is DIY the same as professional installation. Definitely not.
Are some DIY jobs better than some professionally installed
systems? Without question many are. Are some worse? Of course.
Clients, like installers, come with a diversity of skills levels,
attitudes and work ethics. Some are DIYers and some paid
installers are devoid of all three. Some are competent, patient
and very sharp.

I've seen the results, across the board, of DIY and paid
technicians' work. Some of both are unspeakably bad. Some jobs,
both pro and DIY, are magnificent.

I am anti-telling-them-it's-exactly-the-same-so-I-can-make-a-profit.

So am I. But I've proven time and again that I can teach any
reasonably intelligent person who has the patience to listen to
and follow professional advice how to do a competent, proficient
job of protecting his home. It might take the DIYer twice as
long as you and his work might not be quite as elegant, but I can
teach him to do a competent job. For most DIYers that is enough.

It's my reponsibility as an alarm professional to inform my
customers of their options, and point out things which help
maximize their level of protection.

Same here. The only difference is I need to spend more time
discussing it with the client than you do. Once you've scoped
out the job you can write up the plan and (assuming they pay the
deposit) start the work. I have to explain everything in exact
detail and (sometimes) walk them through it.

Most DIY'ers are already convinced that they ARE going to
do it themselves, so the only thing I can do is give them the
information that they need in a non-judgemental way...

Nothing wrong with that.

The only way to get the best system possible for a DIY'er,
is to have a qualified person design it by visiting the site...

On that we disagree, mainly because (1) the consumer has no way
to evaluate the professional qualifications of the guy on site;
and (2) most professional installers are not at all interested in
visiting a site to tell the end user what he needs and how to
install it. Worse, way too many brick 'n' mortar alarm company
salesmen have less of a clue than the typical DIYer.

... it's my responsibility to tell them, because it's what I believe.

That's a far sight better than characters like Olson recommending
a bunch of companies he knows nothing about.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[Frank Olson]

That guy got what he deserved -- not for DIYing the job but for
taking advantage of you and ADI. In this case, one can
understand ADI's error. The guy smooth talked them. At least
they didn't offer to open account for him.

In most states (including yours), you're reqired to be *LICENSED* to
purchase product from ADI. Since it's obvious you have an account
established with them, you must have "smooth talked" your way through as
well.

Crash, I don't have anything against installers making a fair
price for their work, their hardware and their knowledge. Guys
like you and I try to give people what they pay for.

Here you go comparing yourself to a professional installer once again.
You run an online parts counter. I won't mention the fact that you're a
convicted felon and probably can't get a license in your jursidiction.

But if you
stop and look at it carefully, the ones doing most of the whining
here about DIY are the unskilled "professionals" who cheat their
clients, lie to make the sale, do slovenly work and (often) bend
the client over a five-year contract that would do old Slew Foot
proud.

OH??? Where has *anyone* here whined about DIY (except to say they've
had to clean up the mess afterwards)? Where has anyone attacked a DIY?
Give us an example where a professional has failed to answer a DIY's
question in this forum.

Have *you* ever lied to make a sale?? Your website is chalker-block
full of lies and misrepresentation. I make this statement because what
you say about DSC on your website (where their products are extolled) is
completely different from what you say about them here.

The true professionals don't give a rat's Olson about
DIY. They figure that DIY customers are not their market and
concentrate on the 98% who are.

Now, you see... I wouldn't have even bothered responding to you if you
hadn't dragged my name into this. You just gotta get your little "dig"
in here and there... What a schmuck (that's a Jewish term if you didn't
already know).

It's the same for me. I have no problem with most people hiring
a pro to do an installation for them. Heck, I occasionally refer
customers to professional installers. I've referred customers to
Jim Rojas on occasion and he made good money doing the work. I
also used to refer people to Worthless until he started behaving
like a fool in the newsgroup.

Heh... I believe Bob Worthy mentioned that he'd received a call from
one of your "clients". What's the matter?? Couldn't figure out a way
to install the system on your own (for free) "as a
friend/neighbour/uncle/cousin"??

The point is there are distinct segments of the security
marketplace. Few, if any, companies are equipped to deal with
all of them. Bob Campbell is respected by every technician in
this forum (well, except one moron from Brooklyn with a penchant
for assaulting children with hammers).

And another moron in Sarasota with penchant for hurling children around
a stage...

He tried servicing the
DIY market and for various reasons it didn't work for him.

He didn't have your "flair" for the business. Didn't like the fact that
he'd have to spend upwards of two to three hours on the phone coaching
the guy through an install. Unlike you... whose "technical support"
has been taken to new heights (doesn't *answer* the phone, email, fax,
etc...). And speaking of technical support... When someone does press
"2" on the phone options menu, who do they wind up talking to when
someone *is* there??

You *still* haven't changed the address on your multiple websites (even
though you moved weeks ago), *still* dont' have an 800 number (which you
once stated was an absolute necessity when you were deriding another
individual's efforts at starting an online business), and *still*
haven't been able to prove I've lied about anything.

No
problem. I owned a small but modestly successful alarm company
for ~24 years until I sold it. At this stage of life I have zero
interest in starting a new installation business.

And likley you couldn't, given the fact that your criminal record would
prohibit you from obtaining licensing in Florida.


So... Let's have a little math fun while I'm "warmed up" on the subject
(I just happened to finish doing my tax return). Robert "says" he's
been in the trade for 27 years (28 or 29 it doesn't matter) and that
he's specifically run a "modestly successful alarm company" for 24 years
where he's also inferred he was actively involved in installing, and
servicing alarm equipment (mostly Napco by his own admission). Taken at
face value, that's pretty impressive, but let's remove some of the "pink
face makeup" Robert's so fond of (and keeps slathering on).

Robert incorporated a business in 1979 (at least this is what he's
stated frequently in this Newsgroup) in Hartford, CT. I don't have any
record of that except from a Better Business Bureau Report which lists
the business start date as January 1, 1980. OK... So he's only "off"
by a year. No "biggie".

This *is* interesting though...

His criminal record states that he was "on Parol" between 1979 and 1984
in *Polk County, Florida*. Ermmm... Last time I looked at a map of the
U.S., there's about seven States between FL and CT, but it's not beyond
the realm of possibility that he could have incorporated this business
in CT and acted as an "absentee President" (sort of like Bush). It
doesn't explain how he got his installation experience *in CT* like he
says though (he could have rented the "Alarm Installation Made Easy"
series of videos at the local "Block Buster"). He's admitted to having
to obtain the CT "L-5" in 1989 when he was "nailed" by a license
inspector on an installation and has also admitted to getting his "L-6"
in 1984.

OK... So let's say he's "off to CT" in 1984 (where his business has
been doing absolutely swimmingly in his absence and while he was
finishing up Parol in Florida). 1984 to 1993 is nine years. Why do I
mention 1993? Well, that's the other part of the "Bass Story" I've
managed to "dig up". You see, he's involved in a couple of Florida real
estate transactions between 1993 and 1996. That's "no biggie" either
except for the fact that the address he's provided as a residence at the
time of these transactions is in *OHIO* (Cuyuga County to be precise)
and the proof he gave the Notary Public was an *OHIO* Drivers License.
Let's see... There's Ohio, and there's Connecticut... Ummm... two
States away.

He started his online store in 1996 and began posting in this Group from
a CT address around about the same time. He moved to Florida in 1999.
The last time he was shown as having been registered as an "L-6" in CT
was 2000.

Let's "thin" (as Desi Arnaz would have said) this through:

1979 - 1984
On Parol in Polk County, Florida.

1980
N S Systems Inc registered in CT. Robert's listed as "President" (at
the time of the BBB report). The BBB opened its file on N S Systems in
1983. The report I have is from a later date (February 25, 1999) since
it also makes a reference to not having received "no customer complaints
within the last three years". I've talked to the BBB several times (not
about Robert) and they tell me that ownership/directorship and
incorporation date information on non-member companies isn't usually
confirmed unless there's a problem involving criminal fraud or theft.
George Bush or Errol Flynn could have been named as the President of
N.S. Systems and they wouldn't have even "blinked".

1984
Robert licensed (and living) in CT as an L-6.

1989
Robert runs afoul of a CT License Inspector and gets his L-5.

1993 - 1996
Robert's in *OHIO*.

1996
Robert opens bass-home.com (an online store selling security items and
tube tops) after returning to CT.

1999 - Present
Robert's living in Florida. He currently runs *four* online stores all
selling security items (in an effort to "sneak" under the BBB's "radar").

Plotted out on a time line it would look like this ("CT" is Connecticut).


|Florida | | | |
|On Parol| CT |Ohio | CT |Florida ....
|________|____________|_____|_____|________....
79 84 93 96 99

What's all this mean?? Quite simple. Robert has obviously
installed/serviced alarm equipment. What's always been difficult for me
to swallow is that he'd been doing it for 20+ years (like he keeps
saying). I've just provided verifiable proof that Robert could only
have been installing security equipment in CT between 1984 and 1993, and
possibly between 1996 and 1999 (unlikely since he was full time
operating his online business and posting in this and other Newsgroups
during the day). That's twelve years max, not twenty, 27, 28, 33, or
what-ever his latest number is. OK, OK... So he actually had a valid
CT license until 2000, but I sincerely doubt he could have been
*installing and servicing* equipment *in CT* while he was living in
Florida. He also could have applied to have his Parol served in CT, but
the funny thing is there's no mention of it on the record I've seen.
It's the New Year and I'm feeling generous, so let's give him the
benefit of the doubt and say he worked in CT between 1980 and 1993.
That's still five years short of the twenty he says he
installed/serviced alarms *in CT*.

 

[Frank Olson]

On that we disagree. Alarm installation isn't rocket science.
There are a few basic principals to properly installing motion
detectors, glass breaks, magnetic contacts and smoke detectors.
With advice from an experienced technician, anyone with a modicum
of tool skills and a bit of patience can do a proper
installation.

What exactly *is* your experience?? "Running an alarm company" isn't
installing or servicing equipment. Owning a restaurant doesn't make you
a chef. From the information I have, you were licensed in CT between
1984 and 2000 (and even this fact doesn't prove you were actually
involved in installation/service). You didn't live in CT for at least
three years (between 1993 and 1996). You started your online business
and were posting full time in numerous Newsgroups between 1996 and the
present, moved to Florida in 1999. How much actual experience do you
have installing alarms??

The problems with DIY installations are most often associated
with poor quality hardware sold by some vendors (both online and
brick and mortar) and the lack of technical support.

Yet you sell DSC and Ademco contacts, both products which you continue
to deride. I've witnessed numerous individuals who post in the group
out of frustration because they can't get ahold of you. Your messages
are full, and your email is set to "auto-respond". How many complaints
at the BBB do you have and what proportion involve lack of response??

Anything invisible to the end user is likely invisible to a paid
installer as well.

"Likely"?? You really don't know what you're talking about, do you??

The reality is that those considerations are mainly determined by
discussing the alarm plan before selecting the equipment and
planning the installation. A good DIY store will employ
experienced technicians who know what questions to ask to help
the client make those assessments.

What "experienced technicians" do you employ?? Who are they?? What are
their qualifications?? Seems to me that there is a distinct lack of
such information on your website. Your prices are high and the number
of complaints at the BBB keeps climbing. Why is it you're running four
different websites all selling the same thing again??

If you screw up while driving you put yourself and your family at
much greater risk.

Uh-huh... And using the "driving" example in this instance is an insult
to the family of the woman you killed *while driving*.

Yet most Americans choose to DIY rather than
hire a professional driver.

And most Americans who "DIY" would recognize when it's time to pull over
too. Somehow I can't see you doing a "professional job" at anything so
far (other than running your mouth off).

Frankly, alarm installation is not a
complex art. There are certain basic questions that must be
answered to determine which system is appropriate, which
detectors will best work in the environment (for example, are
there pets, how many, how active and how large).

Oh?? And how do you determine which "system is appropriate"?? I'm
wondering when you'd ever "recommend" DSC considering how you extoll
it's virtues on your multiple websites.

A good technician can determine whether the homeowner's needs
will be better suited by a simple, burg only system or a complete
home automation system. Beyond that, running wire from A to B
and physically connecting the components together is simple
enough.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!!! Right, Bass... Only a "technician" can
determine whether a homeowner wants a home automation system or a
"simple, burg only system"... Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!

I'll grant you that many DIY projects are not properly supported
and that those installations are subject to greater incidence of
false alarms, as well as possible failure.

Which would tend to rank the systems you sell and "support" amoung the
ones with the "greater incidence of false alarms" and failures.

But when the DIYer is
experienced or has proper technical support from the store where
s/he bought the system false alarms and system failures are less
of a problem than with many alarm companies.

"When the DIYer is experienced"? At what?? Alarm installation?? As
for receiving "proper technical support", I seriously doubt that anyone
would be getting this from *your* store... How's the weather in Bahia
by the way??

The other side of this coin is that while there are many truly
talented, caring individuals in this trade whose installations
are impeccable, there are also far too many jerks like that moron
from Milford who have zero technical skill and even less concern
for their vict... er, customers' security.

Ahhhh... So... you've actually *seen* one of his installations?? How
did they differ from yours??

You may be a fine, competent installer and your installations
might employ nothing but the best. Without having seen your work
or heard anything to the contrary, I prefer to assume as much.
But you and I both know the kind of trash work many of these
so-called "authorized dealers" do every day.

We all know that false alarm problems that plague our industry
are, by and large, the result of shoddy professional workmanship
and poor customer training.

What statistics are you referring to here?? Where can I find the
specific reference to "shoddy professional workmanship and poor customer
training"??

Since the prospective customer has
no way to know in advance whether the fellow proposing to install
an alarm system is like you or like Milford, he may have a better
chance of getting it right by DIY.

Since the prospective customer has no way of knowing he's dealing with a
convicted felon when he emails or calls you, he may have a better chance
of getting it right with a *licensed* Alarm Company employing *licensed*
professional technicians.

That is patently unfair.

Only the fact that what he said is the truth. You have so much as
admitted that you carry DSC and Ademco contacts only because you don't
want to "lose a sale".

The reality is that most people can
indeed install their own alarms and do so effectively and
properly.

Heh... Now you've "switched" again. "Most people"??

I might just as easily say that anyone who tells a
customer that the only way to get a proper installation is to
hire a paid technician is misleading them for financial gain.

You say that frequently. And a "paid technician" is who?? Someone
who's employed by an alarm company perhaps?? Someone with more than
just a modicum of tool skills?? Someone with demonstrated experience
that is earning substantially more than minimum wage?? Someone that's
*licensed*??

The truth is that most consumers don't want to DIY -- some
because they haven't the time or inclination and others because
they don't have any tool skills.

OK... now you've gone from "most people can install their own alarms" to
"most consumers don't want to DIY"...

DIY is probably less than 2% of
the alarm industry marketplace.

And with stores like yours that number's liable to fall to 1%.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear
that DIY plumbing and electrical work are a similar proportion.

You wouldn't be, I know... You'd be wrong again though...

For those with zero ability to install anything, professional
installation is a good choice as long as they know for certain
the kind of workmanship and support they are going to receive
before signing the contract. For those who can handle a drill
and a few simple tools plus the willingness to learn something
new, DIY is a viable choice.

As long as they don't need the kind of "technical support" you provide.

You are aware, I assume, that monkeys are not the only primates.
I had a good laugh when one particularly obnoxious alarm
installer said here that he didn't like being called a primate.
:^)

Ahhh... Is this same "obnoxious installer" you're referring to the one
you tried to get fired from his job?? The one whom you continue to
viciously attack whenever he posts into the group??

By way of contrast, most professionally installed alarms on
existing homes are not inspected because most alarm companies
don't bother pulling permits unless it's new construction. In
many places this is a violation of law and in some it exposes the
consumer to fines should an inspector see the work later.

Really?? Perhaps this was your "experience". It's certainly not been
mine. Permits are pulled for every job. To "get caught" without one
exposes the company doing the work to some pretty nasty stuff. ISTR
that you found yourself in exactly this situation in CT...

If it's anything better than 98% false, the DIY job is better
than the industry standard for professionally installed systems.

Uh-huh... sure...

 

[Mark Leuck]

What exactly *is* your experience?? "Running an alarm company" isn't
installing or servicing equipment. Owning a restaurant doesn't make you
a chef. From the information I have, you were licensed in CT between
1984 and 2000 (and even this fact doesn't prove you were actually
involved in installation/service). You didn't live in CT for at least
three years (between 1993 and 1996). You started your online business
and were posting full time in numerous Newsgroups between 1996 and the
present, moved to Florida in 1999. How much actual experience do you
have installing alarms??

Why do I think it's 1997 all over again?

 

[Bob Worthy]

They won't here. Have to be licensed.

Here as well (S Florida).

 

[Bob Worthy]

in message:

I also used to refer people to Worthless until he started behaving
like a fool in the newsgroup.

One customer , Um!, doesn't replace all the "Kicks and Giggles" I get from
messing with you Robert. If a referral from you means giving up my fun, keep
it. I spend more for lunch than their monthly monitoring fee.

The point is there are distinct segments of the security
marketplace. Few, if any, companies are equipped to deal with
all of them.

Not exactly true, Robert. All legitimate companies can deal with as much or
as many segments of the industry as they choose to invest the time and money
into. It doesn't take a fool to figure out what choices you have at your
disposal. Let me count them. 1..................ahh, 1................. I
guess that's all folks. Too bad Robert, you made your bed, now lie in it.
Any more unwarranted snide remarks, Wanntabe? Cheeeshh!! and I wanted to
start the year out right.

 

[Crash Gordon]

So Mark...you probably see more varied panels than anyone here...what do you
think as far as ease of programming...low end Vistas or Nappys?


|
message
| | > Robert L Bass wrote:
| >
| > > On that we disagree. Alarm installation isn't rocket science.
| > > There are a few basic principals to properly installing motion
| > > detectors, glass breaks, magnetic contacts and smoke detectors.
| > > With advice from an experienced technician, anyone with a modicum
| > > of tool skills and a bit of patience can do a proper
| > > installation.
| >
| > What exactly *is* your experience?? "Running an alarm company" isn't
| > installing or servicing equipment. Owning a restaurant doesn't make you
| > a chef. From the information I have, you were licensed in CT between
| > 1984 and 2000 (and even this fact doesn't prove you were actually
| > involved in installation/service). You didn't live in CT for at least
| > three years (between 1993 and 1996). You started your online business
| > and were posting full time in numerous Newsgroups between 1996 and the
| > present, moved to Florida in 1999. How much actual experience do you
| > have installing alarms??
|
| Why do I think it's 1997 all over again?
|
|

 

[Bob Worthy]

On that we disagree. Alarm installation isn't rocket science.
There are a few basic principals to properly installing motion
detectors, glass breaks, magnetic contacts and smoke detectors.
With advice from an experienced technician,

Seeing you wanted to start with me again this new year, let me ask this
question, "Where are your clients getting this advice?"

The problems with DIY installations are most often associated
with poor quality hardware sold by some vendors

Usually driven by the cheap client that is trying to save money from the git
anyway.

and the lack of technical support.

Like when they are on vacation and can't be reached by phone, email or fax?

Anything invisible to the end user is likely invisible to a paid
installer as well.

You truely live in your own little world, Wannabe.

very important electrical/electronic

A good DIY store will employ
experienced technicians who know what questions to ask to help
the client make those assessments.

Is this what you suggest or what you practice? Be careful. Being an employer
in the State of Florida opens up a big can of "Kicks and Giggles." hey hey
hey :>)

If you screw up while driving you put yourself and your family at
much greater risk.

Especially when there is a fatality!

Yet most Americans choose to DIY rather than
hire a professional driver.

We know, you should have caught a cab!

A good technician can determine whether the homeowner's needs
will be better suited by a simple, burg only system or a complete
home automation system.

If a client is inquiring about a burg system, why, other than financial
gain, are you putting them into a home automation system. When a client is
looking for something specific, you will talk yourself out of the sale
trying to sell the benefits of having their sprinkler system and coffee pot
come on simultaneously. First learn the clients concerns, not what "you"
think better suits them.

Beyond that, running wire from A to B
and physically connecting the components together is simple
enough.

Yah they all have duct tape.

experienced or has proper technical support from the store where
s/he bought the system false alarms and system failures are less
of a problem than with many alarm companies.

And where is the results and false alarm percentages of all these DYI
installs documented? How many actually got so frustrated that the parts are
in a box in the closet? How many of your DYI systems have you actually seen?
One man's treasures are another man's trash. Simple enough to remember,
everyone is proud of their own work regardless of what it turns out to be. I
do know that what ever percentage of false alarms they generate are lumped
in with the other false alarm figures. I wonder just what that percentage
would be.

Since the prospective customer has

no way to know in advance

It is called referrals. Another is called BBB. Another is called municiple
building department. Another is called licensing board. Another is called
Trade Association. Another is called "open your damn eyes, if it doesn't
look professional, it probably isn't."

Hey..an hour on the phone with someone that is trying to sell you something
will have you believing exactly what Robert is trying sell here.

and
He figured you out, Robert.

By way of contrast, most professionally installed alarms on
existing homes are not inspected because most alarm companies
don't bother pulling permits unless it's new construction.

In Florida the building (installation) permit is crossed referenced with the
application for a user permit in most jurisdictions, just to bring you up to
speed on what goes on around you Robert. No inspection, no user permit ie:
no response.

If it's anything better than 98% false, the DIY job is better
than the industry standard for professionally installed systems.

tsk tsk......Only recites what he reads and has no practical experience to
back it up. What a Wannabe! It is a shame you'll never be able to come in
from the cold little boy. You might have had some potential if you hadn't
made so many bad...bad decisions. On the other hand, this post was fun. Keep
them coming Robert, seeing as how you chose to start the New Year.

 

[Mark Leuck]

No question Ademco, Any Napco panel above the 801 is too much trouble to
deal with programming at the keypad or via downloading. Both methods of
programming are VERY slow and tedious. Napco panels have in my opinion no
feature superior to any other brand to switch to it. Napco themselves know
this since they released the new version panels with slightly simpler
programming. As far as I'm concerned anyone who likes Napco also likes
intense pain.

As far as the panel itself is concerned Napco is bulletproof

 

[Robert L Bass]

So Mark...you probably see more varied panels

than anyone here...what do you think as far as
ease of programming...low end Vistas or Nappys?

I can answer that one for you. Ademco / Honeywell Vista-15P and
Vista-20P control panels are easier to program than Napco's
P1632, P3200, etc. With all of that Napco flexibility come a lot
more programming options from which to choose. Some things you
can leave untouched if you're not using them.

If you like the standard zone types (pre-configured sets of
options) you can use those much like you can with a Vista panel.
But if you want to change the way one or more zones function
beyond the basics, you're going to spend more time in the Napco
manual. The difference is that with Napco you have the choice.
With most other brands your options are far more limited.

Side note to a certain moron from BC: I lived and worked in CT,
running a small alarm company, continuously for much longer than
said moron pretends to believe.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[Crash Gordon]

The P's now have configurable zone response types.


|> So Mark...you probably see more varied panels
| > than anyone here...what do you think as far as
| > ease of programming...low end Vistas or Nappys?
|
| I can answer that one for you. Ademco / Honeywell Vista-15P and
| Vista-20P control panels are easier to program than Napco's
| P1632, P3200, etc. With all of that Napco flexibility come a lot
| more programming options from which to choose. Some things you
| can leave untouched if you're not using them.
|
| If you like the standard zone types (pre-configured sets of
| options) you can use those much like you can with a Vista panel.
| But if you want to change the way one or more zones function
| beyond the basics, you're going to spend more time in the Napco
| manual. The difference is that with Napco you have the choice.
| With most other brands your options are far more limited.
|
| Side note to a certain moron from BC: I lived and worked in CT,
| running a small alarm company, continuously for much longer than
| said moron pretends to believe.
|
| --
|
| Regards,
| Robert L Bass
|
| Bass Burglar Alarms
| The Online DIY Store
| http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
|

 

[JoeRaisin]

I can answer that one for you. Ademco / Honeywell Vista-15P and
Vista-20P control panels are easier to program than Napco's
P1632, P3200, etc. With all of that Napco flexibility come a lot
more programming options from which to choose. Some things you
can leave untouched if you're not using them.

If you like the standard zone types (pre-configured sets of
options) you can use those much like you can with a Vista panel.
But if you want to change the way one or more zones function
beyond the basics, you're going to spend more time in the Napco
manual. The difference is that with Napco you have the choice.
With most other brands your options are far more limited.

The 20PS has configurable zones... OK only 2 of 'em but its a start...

 

[Robert L Bass]

The 20PS has configurable zones... OK only 2 of 'em but its a start...

True, but with Napco all 32 or 96 zones are configurable. With
62 selectable options per zones you have umm..., roughly
4.6*10^18 or, using the longhand method,
4,600,000,000,000,000,000 ways to configure any given zone.
Technically, it's not quite that large a number since some
options are mutually exclusive and some require selection of
certain other options, but you get the point.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[Mark Leuck]

The 20PS has configurable zones... OK only 2 of 'em but its a start...

Umm no that panel has 4

 

[Frank Olson]

Side note to a certain moron from BC: I lived and worked in CT,
running a small alarm company, continuously for much longer than
said moron pretends to believe.

I don't "pretend" to believe anything there, Robert. Like I said
before, you can "run" a restaurant but that doesn't make you a "chef".
I know guys that have been licensed in Security Installations for
*eons*, but haven't touched the tools for years.

You still haven't answered my questions, by the way...

 

[JoeRaisin]

Umm no that panel has 4

Sure, if you are using a downloader. I thought we were talking hand
programming...
We do alomost all our programming in the field. Especially the smaller
panels. There are a few laptops floating around for the bigger panels
but I never seem to have one when I am installing one... go figure...