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Battery charging with intermittant power source

S

Scott Ronald

Hi I am wondering about the best way to charge lead acid batteries from
a source that cannot be relied on for constant power such as wind, or
solar. So far I am looking at 2 ways to do this:

Cycle charging
For this method I need a constant current, until the charge voltage is
reached, then maintain the charge voltage for a time, or until the
current drops to a minimum, after which I drop to a float voltage.
The difficulty with this is that the charge cycle can be interrupted at
any time, and might be restarted when the battery is partly or fully
charged.

Floating
For this I would set the current limit to the maximum battery charging
limit plus the battery's output current, and set the regulation voltage
to the lead acid float voltage. From the reading I have done on this
topic I believe that this will shorten the service life of the battery.

Any suggestions as to how to do this?

Scott
 
E

ehsjr

Scott said:
Hi I am wondering about the best way to charge lead acid batteries from
a source that cannot be relied on for constant power such as wind, or
solar. So far I am looking at 2 ways to do this:

Cycle charging
For this method I need a constant current, until the charge voltage is
reached, then maintain the charge voltage for a time, or until the
current drops to a minimum, after which I drop to a float voltage.
The difficulty with this is that the charge cycle can be interrupted at
any time, and might be restarted when the battery is partly or fully
charged.

Floating
For this I would set the current limit to the maximum battery charging
limit plus the battery's output current, and set the regulation voltage
to the lead acid float voltage. From the reading I have done on this
topic I believe that this will shorten the service life of the battery.

Any suggestions as to how to do this?

Scott

The first method - a 3 stage "smart" charger.
That assumes you have done your research and worked out
your energy budget and can obtain a smart charger that
meets your requirements and will use batteries of the
proper type, size and number and ...... I'm guessing
you haven't done all of that.

Ed
 
J

Jan

rebel said:
(a) Attend to what Ed said.

(b) Are you thinking of flooded cells, SLA/VRLA or ... ?

(c) Why do you think your "cycle charging" approach is compromised by the
intermittent source?

Lead acid batteries are best charged with a constant voltage source.
Charge current depends on the state of the charge of the battery.
It works similar in a car.

Jan
 
K

krw

Lead acid batteries are best charged with a constant voltage source.
Charge current depends on the state of the charge of the battery.
It works similar in a car.

This is true, but the voltage source must be current limited. This
amounts to a current source into a completely discharged battery,
changing over to a voltage source as the battery charges.
It works similar in a car. ;-)
 
M

me

Most alternators go "balls-to-the-wall"... 50A-60A ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Even a basic plug-in charger will do in the neighborhood of 10A, limited
only by its parts . What can your solar or wind system supply?
 
Hi I am wondering about the best way to charge lead acid batteries from
a source that cannot be relied on for constant power such as wind, or
solar.  So far I am looking at 2 ways to do this:

Cycle charging
For this method I need a constant current, until the charge voltage is
reached, then maintain the charge voltage for a time, or until the
current drops to a minimum, after which I drop to a float voltage.
The difficulty with this is that the charge cycle can be interrupted at
any time, and might be restarted when the battery is partly or fully
charged.

Floating
For this I would set the current limit to the maximum battery charging
limit plus the battery's output current, and set the regulation voltage
  to the lead acid float voltage.  From the reading I have done on this
topic I believe that this will shorten the service life of the battery.

Any suggestions as to how to do this?

Scott

Any particular reason why you just don't buy a charge controller?

For an intermittent source, you need to insure your load is serviced
by undervoltage lockout hardware. I bought some surplus NEMA box
basically for the box, i.e. not what is inside. However, the box
contents were instructional since I've never built this kind of
outdoor gear for a living. The box had a DSC LBCM. DSC is the company,
Digital Security Controls. LBCM stands for Low Battery Cutoff Module.
I haven't tracked down a manual, though the thing is just a relay and
a dozen discretes on a two layer board. Certainly reverse
engineerable. Presumably they limit the battery to a minimum of 10V.
 
Any particular reason why you just don't buy a charge controller?

For an intermittent source, you need to insure your load is serviced
by undervoltage lockout hardware. I bought some surplus NEMA box
basically for the box, i.e. not what is inside. However, the box
contents were instructional since I've never built this kind of
outdoor gear for a living. The box had a DSC LBCM. DSC is the company,
Digital Security Controls. LBCM stands for Low Battery Cutoff Module.
I haven't tracked down a manual, though the thing is just a relay and
a dozen discretes on a two layer board. Certainly reverse
engineerable.  Presumably they limit the battery to a minimum of 10V.

http://www.dsc.com/manuals.aspx
 
S

Scott Ronald

rebel said:
Constant voltage source and a discharged battery can mean quite huge intial
charge current. In ALL types there needs to be SOME mechanism for limiting
current into the battery. Whether this is intrinsic in the charger (which it
often is) defines the need to provide a specific limiting mechanism.

For SLA types, simple CV charging is NOT the regime of choice. A worthwhile
read on care and feeding of SLA's can be found in Unitrode (now TI) app note
U-104 (search for SLUA115.pdf).

I'm still waiting to see the O/P's responses to (b) and (c) above.
(b) I am dealing with SLA at the moment, but I am interested in learning
about VRLA as well.

(c) according to this site: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-13.htm
The stage 2: "constant voltage" is required for a fixed time (assuming
you are charging a battery from a discharged state) for optimal battery
life. I cannot guarantee that 1. the battery is discharged when the
regulator powers up and 2. That the power will be on for the fixed time.
Using a fixed time is not practical, unless another termination
condition (such as temperature, or current) is used.

To provide a few more details, I am working with a 3.6kW power supply
with both programmable voltage regulation and programmable current
limiting. Obviously the 3.6kW number is not guaranteed, depending on
wind or solar conditions, so the current limit may not even come into
effect, and the supply may not be able to reach the desired voltage
either. I am looking for the method that will cause the least damage to
the batteries using this type of supply.

Scott
 
J

Jasen Betts

To provide a few more details, I am working with a 3.6kW power supply
with both programmable voltage regulation and programmable current
limiting. Obviously the 3.6kW number is not guaranteed, depending on
wind or solar conditions, so the current limit may not even come into
effect, and the supply may not be able to reach the desired voltage
either. I am looking for the method that will cause the least damage to
the batteries using this type of supply.

first you need to decide how much energy you can afford to waste.
 
(b) I am dealing with SLA at the moment, but I am interested in learning
about VRLA as well.

(c) according to this site:http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-13.htm
The stage 2: "constant voltage" is required for a fixed time (assuming
you are charging a battery from a discharged state) for optimal battery
life.  I cannot guarantee that 1. the battery is discharged when the
regulator powers up and 2. That the power will be on for the fixed time.
Using a fixed time is not practical, unless another termination
condition (such as temperature, or current) is used.

To provide a few more details, I am working with a 3.6kW power supply
with both programmable voltage regulation and programmable current
limiting.  Obviously the 3.6kW number is not guaranteed, depending on
wind or solar conditions, so the current limit may not even come into
effect, and the supply may not be able to reach the desired voltage
either.  I am looking for the method that will cause the least damage to
the batteries using this type of supply.

Scott

It certainly helps that you gave this some scale. I assume you are
charging a stack of batteries.
 
M

MooseFET

Hi I am wondering about the best way to charge lead acid batteries from
a source that cannot be relied on for constant power such as wind, or
solar.  So far I am looking at 2 ways to do this:

Cycle charging
For this method I need a constant current, until the charge voltage is
reached, then maintain the charge voltage for a time, or until the
current drops to a minimum, after which I drop to a float voltage.
The difficulty with this is that the charge cycle can be interrupted at
any time, and might be restarted when the battery is partly or fully
charged.

You want to limit the charging current to the lead acid battery. In
the wind or solar power case, this can be taken care of by the design
of the power source.

There are chargers that purposely pulse the current into the battery.
You may want to read up on this.

When the battery nears the fully charged state, you want to drop the
charging current down to a smaller value. This is usually done by
holding the voltage at the "charging" voltage for several minutes.

Once the battery is fully charged, you only want to feed a current
into it that is equal to its internal leakage. More current than that
tends to boil away the water.

Your circuit needs to remember where in the charging process you are
when the power goes away. I'd suggest using something like a supercap
to hold the power up. This way, it can check the state of things
every second or so to see if you have taken power from the battery
while the sun was down.
 
Exactly.
I just did one, there is a flashing alarm when the battery drops below 10..7 V,
and a switch off, using power MOSFET, when 10.0 V is reached, also with alarm.
There is current limit and voltage limit on the charger.
There also a a time limit on the charge (24 h for sealed lead acids).
Also the Ah hours is calculated from the current.
I guess I could make some assumptions, and limit charge on Ah hours too,
but then would need to monitor temp as well.
You can get as sophisticated as you want with a PIC :)

Before I start any home project, I carefully search the commercial
market. Not often is it cheaper to DIY unless your time is free. I
generally build it myself when the price savings is large or I can
achieve better specs.

I want to set up some gel cell charging scheme where the 3rd row of my
SUV resides when folded. [That is, yank out the seat and have a shop
build a lid, then recover the space for electronics.] There are plenty
of battery isolators on the market, but most charge controllers from
the solar and wind market can't handle the low drop out of being
charged from an alternator. However, the Blue Sky products look
promising:
http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/
The trick with all these chargers is to interpret their nebulous
datasheets.
 
Yes, sure, never design or build something you can buy for a fraction of the price.
That is often the case with things like amplifiers, TV's, NiMH chargers, what not.
Still it may be fun.

Anyways, I just took the gel battery specs, it told me the max charge current,
charge time, charge voltage, and a lot of other interesting stuff.
I already had the power MOSFET switch part (you cannot buy that), the PIC
with plenty of analog inputs, so on suggestion of somebody here, I used the
voltage drop over the MOSFET to measure current (it is almost exactly 20 milli Ohm).
And the rest is just basic math in the same PIC (that also drives a 4 line text LCD display).
I dunno total cost, but I think I can match that 600 $ price tag onhttp://www.blueskyenergyinc.com
This gel battery has now had about 1200 full charge / discharge cycles,
with very little decrease in performance I can see, so I must be doing something right,
If something does not work, then I can fix it, an other advantage of DIY.
And in this project, using proto board, the design was practically rebuild 2 times..
If I have some idea I can just try it out, added a second PIC a few weeksago.
It has remote control from the PC via RS232, and manual control too.
I can read battery status from anywhere in the world, and control it too.
(It powers an amateur radio transmitter).
I can even make it play audio files from anywhere in the world, as the audio
comes via the PC, digital processor.
Or have the receiver record something....
Also on a timer (using crontab).
Now that is something you cannot buy anywhere...

Any item you buy has implicit some liability insurance associated with
it. Thus if it causes major damage, you can sue the manufacturer. Of
course, this explains why all the wall warts comes from China. "Honest
judge, the ACME manufacturing company doesn't touch the AC power line.
Blame XXXX for that dangerous wall wart."

Hopefully you have a watchdog timer in your charger. You can't take
the risk that the PIC goes off in a loop and whacks the battery. Also,
current sense using the power fet seems way too inaccurate.

Generally most manufacturer provide an independent battery protection
scheme as a safety, i.e. independent of electronics. In nicad packs,
it could be a PEPI. Having designed charger chips, I know you need
multiple protection schemes.

While you may have considered the possible states of a healthy gel
cell, you also need to consider the state of a gel cell on it's last
legs. You don't want to charge a battery that is not healthy.
I want to set up some gel cell charging scheme where the 3rd row of my
SUV resides when folded. [That is, yank out the seat and have a shop
build a lid, then recover the space for electronics.] There are plenty
of battery isolators on the market, but most charge controllers from
the solar and wind market can't handle the low drop out of being
charged from an alternator. However, the Blue Sky products look
promising:
http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/
The trick with all these chargers is to interpret their nebulous
datasheets.

You want to run that car on gel batteries?
Or just use the car to charge those?

I want to run accessories on the gel cells. It's a bummer to have your
notebook computer or whatever drain your car battery when you are in a
remote area. So with the car not running, the gel cells are the power
source. With the car running, the alternator is the power source. That
is mostly what battery isolators do, and they would be fine if the
auxiliary battery could take the alternator voltage. [The isolator
uses relays to prevent reverse power, i.e. the auxiliary battery does
not get used to start the car.] Gel cells cant take as much voltage as
"regular" car batteries since they don't vent.

To make it more complicated, I'd like to not use switchers. I want to
be able to use ham radios and scanners from these gel cells, so I
don't want the RF hash from a switcher. So basically I need to provide
the float voltage to the gel cell from the alternator, i.e. high
current low dropout regulator with a bit of tempco compensation for
the gel cell. Reverse power needs to be prevented. Now this regulator
will see the load of the electronics, which could be high if a HF
transceiver were attached. Thus you wouldn't current limit this
regulator, but put a bidirectional current limit on the gel cell.
Probably something like a polyswitch would do the trick, though they
have really wide specs.

What I do now is for long periods in the boonies, I bring 5 gel cells
that I charge prior to the trip. For charging, I use an off the shelf
3 state charger since I don't care about switching noise in my garage.
These are 50 to 70 AHr batteries picked up on the surplus market (data
center pulls). When a battery reaches 10V, it gets retired and I use
the next battery.
 
Any item you buy has implicit some liability insurance associated with
it. Thus if it causes major damage, you can sue the manufacturer. Of
course, this explains why all the wall warts comes from China. "Honest
judge, the ACME manufacturing company doesn't touch the AC power line.
Blame XXXX for that dangerous wall wart."
Hopefully you have a watchdog timer in your charger. You can't take
the risk that the PIC goes off in a loop and whacks the battery.

Sure PIC has a watchdog, but I still have to see the first PIC in a loop.
Also,
current sense using the power fet seems way too inaccurate.

It is actually quite accurate, there is an I calibration pot,
I have run it through the  current range, comparing the readout
with a multimeter.
You do not want .001 percent, 1 percent is good enough for this
sort of thing.
This topic was discussed here some time ago (last year?), and
Rds on versus temp and versus I drain is rather constant.
Generally most manufacturer provide an independent battery protection
scheme as a safety, i.e. independent of electronics. In nicad packs,
it could be a PEPI. Having designed charger chips, I know you need
multiple protection schemes.

There are fuses in both battery leads, and a thermal fuse as second protection
in the charger.
Plus current limit, plus voltage regulation.
While you may have considered the possible states of a healthy gel
cell, you also need to consider the state of a gel cell on it's last
legs. You don't want to charge a battery that is not healthy.

If it is short, then the thermal fuse will go.
If it is open then no current will flow.
I want to run accessories on the gel cells. It's a bummer to have your
notebook computer or whatever drain your car battery when you are in a
remote area. So with the car not running, the gel cells are the power
source. With the car running, the alternator is the power source. That
is mostly what battery isolators do, and they would be fine if the
auxiliary battery could take the alternator voltage. [The isolator
uses relays to prevent reverse power, i.e. the auxiliary battery does
not get used to start the car.] Gel cells cant take as much voltage as
"regular" car batteries since they don't vent.

I use a slightly lower charge voltage, no problem as I can normally
charge for 24 hours.
The manufacturer of these gel batteries recommend 14.5 to 14.9 V with
a maximum of 24 hours.
To make it more complicated, I'd like to not use switchers. I want to
be able to use ham radios and scanners from these gel cells, so I
don't want the RF hash from a switcher.

I would use a series PNP on a heatsink.
You may run into trouble with that when the sun is on the car for a long time.
Have you considered fuel cells?
So basically I need to provide
the float voltage to the gel cell from the alternator, i.e. high
current low dropout regulator with a bit of tempco compensation for
the gel cell. Reverse power needs to be prevented. Now this regulator
will see the load of the electronics, which could be high if a HF
transceiver were attached. Thus you wouldn't current limit this
regulator, but put a bidirectional current limit on the gel cell.

There are 2 circuits, the charge circuit, and the low dropout load regulator.
There should always be a current limit.
The nice thing about PICs, with all those analog inputs, is that
they can monitor everything, and then switch off based on time.
In current limit or foldback for 2 seconds? Power down.
Probably something like a polyswitch would do the trick, though they
have really wide specs.

I like to refer as much as possible to software, it is easier to change.
The fuse is the last resort if all transistors short and nothing works.
Polyfuse is only for low power stuff I think?
What I do now is for long periods in the boonies, I bring 5 gel cells
that I charge prior to the trip. For charging, I use an off the shelf
3 state charger since I don't care about switching noise in my garage.
These are 50 to 70 AHr batteries picked up on the surplus market (data
center pulls). When a battery reaches 10V, it gets retired and I use
the next battery.

250 Ah is a lot.
My transceiver uses about 20 A at max power, 5 to 6 A at low power,
that would give you more then 10 hours transmit time at max power.
It is a Ranger RCI-2970DX:
 http://www.pepperelectronics.com/acatalog/RCI-2970DX-sm.jpg
 http://www.cbtricks.com/radios/rci/rci_2970/index.htm

Here is an ASCII diagram of a simple low drop out linear regulator I published
here some time ago:

                                                      PNP power              
+10 to + 35 V ----  a diode k ------------------------e   c---------------- + 8.3
                               |   |                    b T1    |      |
                              ===  |                    |       |      |    
                         10u  ---  |                    |       |      R3 5k9
                         tant. |   |                    |       |      |
                              ///  |     about +2.4     c       c      |
                                 LM317L-------------- b           b----|
                                   |    |      |        e       e      |
                                   |    R1 150 |        | T2    | T3   |  
                                   |    |      |        |_______|      R4 2k4
                                   |----       |            |          |
                                   |          === 10u       R2        ///
                                   R2150     --- tant.     | 150
                                   |           |           ///
                                  ///         ///         2 x NPN  

For more current you need some extra transistor driving the base of T1.
R2 set the current limit, set by the beta of T1 x I R2.

I've done the PNP pass in chips. [It's a common scheme since PNPs can
generally handle more voltage than fets on a chip. Very common on
switchers that bootstrap their power to the control circuitry.] ] I'd
be more inclined to use a Pfet (probably two back to back to get
around reverse power). The PNP isn't great for low drop out. You have
to add anti-saturation circuitry. The efficiency is poor near
saturation since the base current goes up.

I don't trust software. Too many bugs.
 
Did you read the Unitrode AppNote?  The regime used by that controller chip
(UC3906) can be restarted at will regardless of the SOC of the SLA.  The only
requirement is that the charger can deliver *enough* current to trigger the
changes to the charge mode.

I read it. Good reference. They go into the tempco.
 
Any item you buy has implicit some liability insurance associated with
it. Thus if it causes major damage, you can sue the manufacturer. Of
course, this explains why all the wall warts comes from China. "Honest
judge, the ACME manufacturing company doesn't touch the AC power line.
Blame XXXX for that dangerous wall wart."
Hopefully you have a watchdog timer in your charger. You can't take
the risk that the PIC goes off in a loop and whacks the battery.

Sure PIC has a watchdog, but I still have to see the first PIC in a loop.
Also,
current sense using the power fet seems way too inaccurate.

It is actually quite accurate, there is an I calibration pot,
I have run it through the  current range, comparing the readout
with a multimeter.
You do not want .001 percent, 1 percent is good enough for this
sort of thing.
This topic was discussed here some time ago (last year?), and
Rds on versus temp and versus I drain is rather constant.
Generally most manufacturer provide an independent battery protection
scheme as a safety, i.e. independent of electronics. In nicad packs,
it could be a PEPI. Having designed charger chips, I know you need
multiple protection schemes.

There are fuses in both battery leads, and a thermal fuse as second protection
in the charger.
Plus current limit, plus voltage regulation.
While you may have considered the possible states of a healthy gel
cell, you also need to consider the state of a gel cell on it's last
legs. You don't want to charge a battery that is not healthy.

If it is short, then the thermal fuse will go.
If it is open then no current will flow.
I want to run accessories on the gel cells. It's a bummer to have your
notebook computer or whatever drain your car battery when you are in a
remote area. So with the car not running, the gel cells are the power
source. With the car running, the alternator is the power source. That
is mostly what battery isolators do, and they would be fine if the
auxiliary battery could take the alternator voltage. [The isolator
uses relays to prevent reverse power, i.e. the auxiliary battery does
not get used to start the car.] Gel cells cant take as much voltage as
"regular" car batteries since they don't vent.

I use a slightly lower charge voltage, no problem as I can normally
charge for 24 hours.
The manufacturer of these gel batteries recommend 14.5 to 14.9 V with
a maximum of 24 hours.
To make it more complicated, I'd like to not use switchers. I want to
be able to use ham radios and scanners from these gel cells, so I
don't want the RF hash from a switcher.

I would use a series PNP on a heatsink.
You may run into trouble with that when the sun is on the car for a long time.
Have you considered fuel cells?
So basically I need to provide
the float voltage to the gel cell from the alternator, i.e. high
current low dropout regulator with a bit of tempco compensation for
the gel cell. Reverse power needs to be prevented. Now this regulator
will see the load of the electronics, which could be high if a HF
transceiver were attached. Thus you wouldn't current limit this
regulator, but put a bidirectional current limit on the gel cell.

There are 2 circuits, the charge circuit, and the low dropout load regulator.
There should always be a current limit.
The nice thing about PICs, with all those analog inputs, is that
they can monitor everything, and then switch off based on time.
In current limit or foldback for 2 seconds? Power down.
Probably something like a polyswitch would do the trick, though they
have really wide specs.

I like to refer as much as possible to software, it is easier to change.
The fuse is the last resort if all transistors short and nothing works.
Polyfuse is only for low power stuff I think?
What I do now is for long periods in the boonies, I bring 5 gel cells
that I charge prior to the trip. For charging, I use an off the shelf
3 state charger since I don't care about switching noise in my garage.
These are 50 to 70 AHr batteries picked up on the surplus market (data
center pulls). When a battery reaches 10V, it gets retired and I use
the next battery.

250 Ah is a lot.
My transceiver uses about 20 A at max power, 5 to 6 A at low power,
that would give you more then 10 hours transmit time at max power.
It is a Ranger RCI-2970DX:
 http://www.pepperelectronics.com/acatalog/RCI-2970DX-sm.jpg
 http://www.cbtricks.com/radios/rci/rci_2970/index.htm

Here is an ASCII diagram of a simple low drop out linear regulator I published
here some time ago:

                                                      PNP power              
+10 to + 35 V ----  a diode k ------------------------e   c---------------- + 8.3
                               |   |                    b T1    |      |
                              ===  |                    |       |      |    
                         10u  ---  |                    |       |      R3 5k9
                         tant. |   |                    |       |      |
                              ///  |     about +2.4     c       c      |
                                 LM317L-------------- b           b----|
                                   |    |      |        e       e      |
                                   |    R1 150 |        | T2    | T3   |  
                                   |    |      |        |_______|      R4 2k4
                                   |----       |            |          |
                                   |          === 10u       R2        ///
                                   R2150     --- tant.     | 150
                                   |           |           ///
                                  ///         ///         2 x NPN  

For more current you need some extra transistor driving the base of T1.
R2 set the current limit, set by the beta of T1 x I R2.

<http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/TE/bin/TE.Connect?
C=22878&M=FEAT&P=151641,146369&U=&I=13&G=G>
There are high current polyswitches. [Raychem for you old timers.]

Here is the PEPI website
http://www.pepiusa.com/
They also have high current products.

I gather the PEPI is a cheaper solution over polyswitch since I never
saw a polyswitch in a battery pack. PEPI or similar are common.
 
Well, that will severely limit what you can do.
Usually the use of an integrated computer solution like PIC,
with software in FLASH can save many many analog and digital components,
add amazing features (that cannot easily be done in hardware at low cost
or complexity), so improve reliability because of lower component count,
etc.
Not even mentioning networking and remote features.

Although I am not using that 100% here, the idea of just doing ADC on anyvalue,
doing all processing digital, and then, if needed, doing DAC, sort of is nice.
In circuit re-programming is nice too.
Maybe get rid of all those wires from board modifications...
Or even update a program remotely... May save you a long trip.

I did see some negative remarks about doingg it digital, and sure, some
things can be done analog, but this digital processing just requires
a bit different way of thinking, the nice features come by themselves, and,
as those features have very little hardware cost (just code), are a good
way to leave the competition behind, especially if you can read protect the FLASH.

In fact I am wondering how much analog is here to stay....
Except perhaps for extreme speeds and precisions, but ADCs get better allthe time too.
We even have digital radio, and, with FPGAs with serial links in the 8 Gbits/s range
'speed' gets an other dimension.
The 75 Baud time is long long gone ;-)

But I'm an analog guy;-)

Note that digital often is often a higher power solution for many
products. Generally a hybrid is the way to go. I'll give you an
example of a design screw-up I made by going digital versus analog. It
was on a SMB interface circuit. I used the system clock to add some
wait states in the design since it was precise and already there.
Problem was the clock got shutdown down in powerdown mode, so I had no
clock when it was time to wake up the chip with a bus command.
Fortunately, there were other mistakes on the chip (a multiperson
project), so I wasn't the only person screwing up big time. The 2nd
pass used one-shots for the timing.
 
[....]
I have a few comments on the LDO regulator issue.



The input diode cost you a lot of drop.  A P-MOSFET can be used to do
this function with a much smaller drop.  This will give you a better
dropout number.

Right at the point of dropout, A P-MOSFET is better than the PNP in
terms of it still maintaining about the same gain.  There is also a
problem with a PNP when a short circuit is suddenly applied.  A nearly
saturated PNP will pass quite a large pulse of current.

At very low current levels, a N channel JFET makes a great pass
element for a LDO.  It has the advantage that the gate voltage is less
than the output so the whole regulation circuit can be run on the
output of the circuit.  Unfortunately nobody makes great big power
JFETs (unless you count the static induction transistor).

Jfets are often used in bicmos chips. You can make them out of the epi
layer. They are great because like you stated, then are on at low
voltages.

In a discrete design, in theory you could use depletion mosfets.
http://www.aldinc.com/pdf/ALD114804.pdf
 
M

MooseFET

[....]
I have a few comments on the LDO regulator issue.
+10 to + 35 V ----  a diode k ------------------------e   c---------------- + 8.3
                               |   |                    b T1    |      |
                              ===  |                    |       |      |    
                         10u  ---  |                    |       |      R3 5k9
                         tant. |   |                    |       |      |
                              ///  |     about +2.4     c       c      |
                                 LM317L-------------- b           b----|
                                  |    |      |        e       e      |
                                  |    R1 150 |        | T2    | T3   |  
                                  |    |      |        |_______|      R4 2k4
                                  |----       |            |          |
                                  |          === 10u       R2        ///
                                  R2 150     --- tant.     | 150
                                  |           |           ///
                                 ///         ///         2 x NPN  
The input diode cost you a lot of drop.  A P-MOSFET can be used to do
this function with a much smaller drop.  This will give you a better
dropout number.
Right at the point of dropout, A P-MOSFET is better than the PNP in
terms of it still maintaining about the same gain.  There is also a
problem with a PNP when a short circuit is suddenly applied.  A nearly
saturated PNP will pass quite a large pulse of current.
At very low current levels, a N channel JFET makes a great pass
element for a LDO.  It has the advantage that the gate voltage is less
than the output so the whole regulation circuit can be run on the
output of the circuit.  Unfortunately nobody makes great big power
JFETs (unless you count the static induction transistor).

Jfets are often used in bicmos chips. You can make them out of the epi
layer. They are great because like you stated, then are on at low
voltages.

In a discrete design, in theory you could use depletion mosfets.http://www.aldinc.com/pdf/ALD114804.pdf

Check out the ones from www.supertex.com
http://www.supertex.com/pdf/misc/d_mode_mosfets_SG_device.pdf

They make darn good pass elements in low current LDOs.

I just had a great idea for a new product.

Lets package DN2470s in a glass package with a pair of back to back
red LEDs and a power resistor. The LEDs and the resistor will make it
get hot and glow red. The MOSFET would work ok as an audio amplifier.
 
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