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Are small signal npn transistors really so different from one another?

J

James Meyer

It's not broadband. The first stage is tuned *before* the input.
BTW, the output stage drives a sub-minature moving coil meter with a
380 ohm static DC resistance.

Arf a mo, the output load of an RF amplifier is a moving coil meter?

Is this an incarnation of your (in)famous field strength meter?

BTW, the RF gain of BJTs is highly dependant on bias conditions.

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/PN/PN918.pdf is a data sheet for a small
common NPN BJT (used to be a 2N918) that, because it is advertised as an RF
transistor, has a better specification format for RF than the 2N3904 datasheets.
The 2N3904 curves, if they existed, would be very similar to the PN918 curves in
shape. The name changes, but the basic physics stays the same. A rose by any
other name... and so forth.

Jim
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Paul Burridge
[email protected]>) about 'Are small signal npn transistors really so
different from one another?', on Sun, 21 Dec 2003:
Incidentally, is there a single identifiable parameter in the Spice
model of a transistor that would show up its susceptibility of going
into saturation and the criticality of correct biasing? Sorry if that
sounds like a load of bollocks but I'm still recovering from a
hangover.

You need to keep Vce above 1 V to prevent the capacitance's getting too
big, even if Vce(sat) is only 200 mV.

Forget your Spice model and look at the device parameters that *humans*
can understand. Beta, rbb', Icmax, Vceo, Vce(sat), Rtheta, Tjmax ....
(;-)

RC amplifier stages are quite easy, if you are not pushing for really
maximum performance. I think you have a 9 V supply. OK, I'm not even
going to specify the device, beyond 'small-signal silicon, RF rather
than audio', and the operating frequency is well below fbeta. If it
isn't, common-emitter is the wrong circuit configuration anyway.

[This is an example of the 'all transistors are the same' rule of
circuit design. It takes experience to know when to apply it, and when
you must apply the 'all transistors are different' rule.]

We'll assume that you want to get 1 V peak-to-peak out; you may want
much less, but if so you could eliminate a normally important design
step. vce (the instantaneous value) mustn't go below 1 V, so we set Vce
= 1.7 V to give a bit of margin for device variations. We set Ve = 1 V
for biasing. Vc is then 2.7 V. We want as much gain as we can
reasonably get, so we'll set the Ic at 5 mA (check if possible with the
data sheet that gm or yfe hasn't dropped off at this current; it should
be approximately 39 x 5 mA = 195 mS (millisiemens).

To drop (9 - 2.7) V at 5 mA we need Rc = 1.25 kohms (nearly). If this is
the only load on the stage, the gain is gmRc = 244 times. It might not
be stable at this gain, due to feedback effects in the device and
circuit; if so, reduce Ic until it is stable. If the stage feeds a 50
ohm load, the gain is 195 x 0.05 = 9.75.

To make Ve = 1 V at Ic = 5 mA, we need Re = 200 ohms. Take beta = 50
nominal (it's an RF device; an audio device would have much higher
beta). We set the base divider current at 0.2 times Ic, i.e. 1 mA, so
that it's a good bit larger than Ib = 5mA/50. If current drain and input
impedance are not critical, we could make the current higher, so that Ic
varies less with beta.

With Ve = 1 V, Vb needs to be 1.7 V. The total base divider resistance
is 9/1 = 9 kohms. So the resistors are 1.7 kohms and 6.3 kohms.

I've left the resistor values as the non-preferred numbers that come off
the calculator. If you want to use 220 ohms, 1.8 k and 6.8 k, just
calculate back what that does to Vc. It probably won't make much
difference, but if it does, just tweak the three values until satisfied.

The input resistance is 26 x beta/Ic = 260 ohms. Maybe add 5 ohms for
rbb'; I hope that's OK for your application. AC-couple across the input
a resistor of value (265 x 50)/(265 - 50) = 62 ohms to get a 50 ohm
input resistance.

You see what happens if you try to cascade two such stages? The low
input impedance of stage 2 reduces the gain of stage 1 to 195 x 0.26 =
51. You'd probably win a bit more if you ran stage 2 at a lower current.
There is a formula for optimising the collector currents in such a
2-stage amplifier for maximum gain. Maybe you can do the mathematics.

Yes, this is a crude analysis, but it's easy and it puts you in the
right ball-park. There are lots of ways of refining it without getting
into difficult calculations. Personally, I'd build it and measure it at
this stage! But you could SPICE it first, if the lab is too cold at this
time of year.

I just hope I didn't make any stupid mistakes in the arithmetic, which I
often do.(8-(
 
J

Jim Thompson

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:41:29 +0000, Paul Burridge

[snip]
Sorry if that
sounds like a load of bollocks but I'm still recovering from a
hangover.

Still waiting to see the schematic ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
P

Paul Burridge

Please post your schematic and I'll write up an analysis, plus fix
your bias.

Thanks for the offer, Jim, but I'll never learn anything if other
people fix my problems for me. I know now where I went wrong (thanks
to the good folks here) and will sort the problem out for myself. That
way I won't use up too much goodwill I might yet need to call upon!
:)
 
P

Paul Burridge

You need to keep Vce above 1 V to prevent the capacitance's getting too
big, even if Vce(sat) is only 200 mV.

Forget your Spice model and look at the device parameters that *humans*
can understand. Beta, rbb', Icmax, Vceo, Vce(sat), Rtheta, Tjmax ....
(;-)

RC amplifier stages are quite easy, if you are not pushing for really
maximum performance. I think you have a 9 V supply. OK, I'm not even
going to specify the device, beyond 'small-signal silicon, RF rather
than audio', and the operating frequency is well below fbeta. If it
isn't, common-emitter is the wrong circuit configuration anyway.

[This is an example of the 'all transistors are the same' rule of
circuit design. It takes experience to know when to apply it, and when
you must apply the 'all transistors are different' rule.]

We'll assume that you want to get 1 V peak-to-peak out; you may want
much less, but if so you could eliminate a normally important design
step. vce (the instantaneous value) mustn't go below 1 V, so we set Vce
= 1.7 V to give a bit of margin for device variations. We set Ve = 1 V
for biasing. Vc is then 2.7 V. We want as much gain as we can
reasonably get, so we'll set the Ic at 5 mA (check if possible with the
data sheet that gm or yfe hasn't dropped off at this current; it should
be approximately 39 x 5 mA = 195 mS (millisiemens).

To drop (9 - 2.7) V at 5 mA we need Rc = 1.25 kohms (nearly). If this is
the only load on the stage, the gain is gmRc = 244 times. It might not
be stable at this gain, due to feedback effects in the device and
circuit; if so, reduce Ic until it is stable. If the stage feeds a 50
ohm load, the gain is 195 x 0.05 = 9.75.

To make Ve = 1 V at Ic = 5 mA, we need Re = 200 ohms. Take beta = 50
nominal (it's an RF device; an audio device would have much higher
beta). We set the base divider current at 0.2 times Ic, i.e. 1 mA, so
that it's a good bit larger than Ib = 5mA/50. If current drain and input
impedance are not critical, we could make the current higher, so that Ic
varies less with beta.

With Ve = 1 V, Vb needs to be 1.7 V. The total base divider resistance
is 9/1 = 9 kohms. So the resistors are 1.7 kohms and 6.3 kohms.

I've left the resistor values as the non-preferred numbers that come off
the calculator. If you want to use 220 ohms, 1.8 k and 6.8 k, just
calculate back what that does to Vc. It probably won't make much
difference, but if it does, just tweak the three values until satisfied.

The input resistance is 26 x beta/Ic = 260 ohms. Maybe add 5 ohms for
rbb'; I hope that's OK for your application. AC-couple across the input
a resistor of value (265 x 50)/(265 - 50) = 62 ohms to get a 50 ohm
input resistance.

You see what happens if you try to cascade two such stages? The low
input impedance of stage 2 reduces the gain of stage 1 to 195 x 0.26 =
51. You'd probably win a bit more if you ran stage 2 at a lower current.
There is a formula for optimising the collector currents in such a
2-stage amplifier for maximum gain. Maybe you can do the mathematics.

Yes, this is a crude analysis, but it's easy and it puts you in the
right ball-park. There are lots of ways of refining it without getting
into difficult calculations. Personally, I'd build it and measure it at
this stage! But you could SPICE it first, if the lab is too cold at this
time of year.

I just hope I didn't make any stupid mistakes in the arithmetic, which I
often do.(8-(

Thanks, John. I'm not bothered about arithmetical mistakes; it's the
design process that's relevant. Your posting contains a fair bit for
me to digest, so I'll need to take some time to do it justice. There
are a couple of issues it throws up that I'll need to address in due
course...
 
J

Jim Thompson

Thanks for the offer, Jim, but I'll never learn anything if other
people fix my problems for me. I know now where I went wrong (thanks
to the good folks here) and will sort the problem out for myself. That
way I won't use up too much goodwill I might yet need to call upon!
:)

But you'll also not learn the right way to do it.

...Jim Thompson
 
P

Paul Burridge

Paul Burridge wrote...

And a rectifying diode?

Yup. In practice a germanium job like an OA81/OA90 but in the
simulation a silicon 1N**** type. Anyone out there got a Spice model
for a germanium rectumfrying diode they could post?

Output from final tranny goes through 10n cap, the diode, then the
meter all in series, with a 100n cap across the meter to bolster the
reading.
 
P

Paul Burridge

Arf a mo, the output load of an RF amplifier is a moving coil meter?
Yeah.


Is this an incarnation of your (in)famous field strength meter?

Erm, yeah.
BTW, the RF gain of BJTs is highly dependant on bias conditions.

Yes, so I've discovered. :-(
 
H

Helmut Sennewald

Hello Paul,
it seems for me that you have misinterpreted the last sentence.

The small signal gain is not high in saturation, it is awfully
low and distortion will also be bad.
The intention was to say that the maximum gain can be achieved if
the load resistor volaue is choosen as high as possible.
You have it at its highest value if the transistor reaches
a Vce of let's say 1V if driven with the highest intended input voltage.
Thanks, Win. That certainly figures. I'll check out the reference in a
jiffy.
Incidentally, is there a single identifiable parameter in the Spice
model of a transistor that would show up its susceptibility of going
into saturation and the criticality of correct biasing?

If you want a linear amplifier, then you avoid saturation anyway.
Spice simulation will do the job here wihout any saturation parameters.

Best Regards,
Helmut
 
P

Paul Burridge

But you'll also not learn the right way to do it.

Yeah, but I'll also look *really* stoopid. You wouldn't believe the
collector currents I was expecting to get away with. Gimme a break
will you? Everyone has to have a sense of pride - even if in my case
it's misplaced. :)
 
P

Paul Burridge

Hello Paul,
it seems for me that you have misinterpreted the last sentence.


The small signal gain is not high in saturation, it is awfully
low and distortion will also be bad.
The intention was to say that the maximum gain can be achieved if
the load resistor volaue is choosen as high as possible.
You have it at its highest value if the transistor reaches
a Vce of let's say 1V if driven with the highest intended input voltage.


If you want a linear amplifier, then you avoid saturation anyway.
Spice simulation will do the job here wihout any saturation parameters.

Best Regards,
Helmut
 
P

Paul Burridge

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:50:37 +0100, "Helmut Sennewald"

Hi Helmut,
The small signal gain is not high in saturation, it is awfully
low and distortion will also be bad.

I'm actually more interested in just pure gain at any expense in this
application; distortion and noise are inconsequential (it's for a
field strength meter).
The intention was to say that the maximum gain can be achieved if
the load resistor volaue is choosen as high as possible.

Yes, but that's *voltage* gain, presumably? Mind you, with a 380 ohm
100uA FSD moving coil meter as a load I don't need that much power, I
guess!
If you want a linear amplifier, then you avoid saturation anyway.
Spice simulation will do the job here wihout any saturation parameters.

I don't think Mike E. includes saturation parameters in his LTSpice
models, does he?

Anyway, Helmut, have a zer gluckliche Weinachten!
 
J

Jim Thompson

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:08:06 -0700, Jim Thompson
[snip]
But you'll also not learn the right way to do it.

Yeah, but I'll also look *really* stoopid. You wouldn't believe the
collector currents I was expecting to get away with. Gimme a break
will you? Everyone has to have a sense of pride - even if in my case
it's misplaced. :)

But there are no "*really* stoopid" questions. That's the way you
learn. When I was a young buck I threw away more pieces of paper than
you know ever existed.

Don't let the egotistical "bad-mouthers" scare you off.

...Jim Thompson
 
J

John Crighton

Erm, yeah.

Yes, so I've discovered. :-(

Hello Paul,
you are making things very complicated for yourself.

Your field strength meter is just a crystal set with a meter
in place of the headphones.
You can have the input of the field strength meter,
tuned or untuned, whatever you wish.
You do not need RF amplifiers at 20 feet range.
If you need RF amplification on the field strength meter
then there is something wrong with your radio control transmitter.

If you have found a beautiful giant moving coil meter
for your field strength meter project that requires milliamps
instead of microamps of DC then use a one or two
transistor DC amplifier after the diode detector.

Have a look at this.
http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/appendixF.html#3
It uses an IC for the DC amplification.
Switch the amplifier in or out as required. I'll comprimise
with you since you insist on an amplifier. Heh heh heh


If your tuned crystal set type field strength meter
or even these untuned types
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~parkerp/noapr97.htm
http://w4zt.com/fsm/index.html
cannot give a reading across a room then your radio
control transmitter is stuffed. Forget amplifiers it will
complicate comparison tests between the transmitters
that are being compared. Did I have the gain knob
here or here? Was the battery good last month?

From your question, I have learned a lot from the
discussion on amplifiers by the high power engineers
on this group which has been great for me and others
I am sure.

CU mate,
John Crighton
Sydney
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Paul Burridge
[email protected]>) about 'Are small signal npn transistors really so
different from one', on Sun, 21 Dec 2003:
Output from final tranny goes through 10n cap, the diode, then the
meter all in series, with a 100n cap across the meter to bolster the
reading.

That won't work. You can't AC couple a diode. The 10 nF cap will charge
up and bias the diode off permanently. You could use the conventional
voltage-doubler solution:

Use Courier font


___
----------+----->|-----+---|___|---+
| | |
_ _ Meter
^ _ |
| | |
----------+------------+-----------+
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Woodgate <[email protected]
raspam.yuk> wrote (in <[email protected]>) about 'Are
small signal npn transistors really so different from one', on Mon, 22
Dec 2003:
That won't work. You can't AC couple a diode. The 10 nF cap will charge
up and bias the diode off permanently. You could use the conventional
voltage-doubler solution:

Use Courier font


___
-----| |--+----->|-----+---|___|---+
| | |
_ _ Meter
^ _ |
| | |
----------+------------+-----------+

Input coupling capacitor added for clarification.
 
I

Ian Bell

Paul said:
Hi guys,

I just designed (in Spice) this chain of three c/e untuned amplifying
stages to get from 50uV in to 60mV out (at 40Mhz) using what I thought
were 2N3904 transistors. Optimised the biasing arrangements over
several hours to get maximum Vgain.

That's where yo went wrong. No design should be so dependent upon device
characteristics to require this.

Ian
 
J

Jim Thompson

That's where yo went wrong. No design should be so dependent upon device
characteristics to require this.

Ian

I've been trying to get Paul to post his schematic so we could
actually do some design demonstration on this group.

But it seems he'd rather remain a hacker rather than post his "design"
for scrutiny :-(

...Jim Thompson
 
I

Ian Bell

Jim said:
I've been trying to get Paul to post his schematic so we could
actually do some design demonstration on this group.

But it seems he'd rather remain a hacker rather than post his "design"
for scrutiny :-(

...Jim Thompson

Strange that. it is easy enough to post a small gif

Ian
 
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