0/1-10V dimming problem

[superhp]

Hi. I have Siemens 5TC8424 potentiometer/switch (http://www.elektroland24.de/out/media/5TC8424_Bedienungsanl.-5TC8424.pdf), 0-10V transformer/driver (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9l3lhqYEi8vREctSmtiajZHU1E/view?usp=sharing) and 36V 36W 900mAh LED panel. The problem is that I cant control the driver (and LED is not lightning) with that potentiometer.
I connect all parts as shown in Siemens connection example. So the potentiometer has input of L and outputs it to the driver and also outputs 1-10v signal to the driver. Driver additionally has input of N. I have measured that the driver correctly gets 220V. However, 0-10v (control) doesn't provide any voltage. Is that normal? Driver outputs 3-4V only while it should output 36V .
I have told it to the supplier of the driver and led and they responded to me that the potentiometer should output 10V on 0-10v wires (http://1drv.ms/1DTQPI6). But they have connected both L and N to their potentiometer's input. Siemens potentiometer cant accept N as I know.
So, are here several different 0-10v technologies like active and passive? Or is my Siemens potentiometer broken and actually should output 0-10v?

 

[Colin Mitchell]

Get a set of cells for 8v. Connect 470R to each lead and take the positive to the blue terminal and negative to the white terminal.

 

[superhp]

Thank you! I am not the electrician at all so I don't understand the details. But I understood that you suggest to do the work around to make the control wires "active"? Or this trick is just for testing is the driver is working/being controlled at all?

I still don't understand the whole picture... The manufacturer (in China) of the driver uses such scheme:

where potentiometer/dimmer is fully connected to AC (both L and N). Here (above) it is possible to measure 1-10V signal with voltmeter.
However, Siemens (in Germany) is using different scheme (I have edited the picture above):

Here it is not possible (or maybe I don't know how) to measure 1-10V signal with voltmeter. Is that normal behavior? Thus, I think, the driver from China is not being controlled by Siemens potentiometer.

So, both Siemens and China manufacturer are using 1-10V dimming technology but they work differently... I must have misunderstood something. Do you know what is wrong here?

 

[Colin Mitchell]

Use the Chinese version.
I don't like the German version.

 

[superhp]

The problem is that I am using Siemens (German) potentiometer (and other switches as well) so I have to use its wiring schema. As I understand, schema on the last page of http://www.meanwell.com/search/LPF-40D/LPF-40D-spec.pdf is similar to "German" schema, right? So maybe it would be easier to change the driver?
But I still don't understand how the 0-10v signal is going in German schema if only Live is in input of the potentiometer (?).

 

[Colin Mitchell]

Just do as I say with the 8v - 9v battery

 

[Merlin3189]

I don't see any difference between the Chinese (driver) and German (controller) systems. The Siemens controller simply has the series On/Off switch included, whereas the Chinese driver circuit does not show an On/Off switch. The driver says it can be controlled by 0-10V and the controller says it supplies 0-10V, so there should be no problem.

If the drivers are powered and the controller is not connected to the drivers, they should light the LEDs 100%. Do they?
If the controller is powered and not connected to the drivers, it should supply 0-10V. Does it?

Colin's suggestion to bypass the controller's On/Off switch and try controlling with batteries seems another sensible test.

 

[superhp]

If the drivers are powered and the controller is not connected to the drivers, they should light the LEDs 100%. Do they? - no. I have also just asked the manufacturers of the driver and they told me that the LED will not light if 0-10v signal is not provided or is 0.
If the controller is powered and not connected to the drivers, it should supply 0-10V. Does it? - no. This is actually weird. It doesn't provide any voltage through 1-10v ports. I will probably call Siemens on Monday to ask about that. But actually, should it output the voltage through 1-10v if only L is connected to the controller?

Thanks for the answer. I have answered above.

 

[Merlin3189]

You comment in the original post that

Siemens potentiometer cant accept N as I know.

and, as you note, it is not clear which standards this equipment complies with. In "E1.3, 0 to 10 V Analog Control Specification." the control signal wires should not be connected to the AC mains. The only circuit I have found for the 5TC8424 is certainly incomplete and may be purely symbolic, but it shows it as a simple switch and variable resistor - in which case it would not output any DC voltage! If it does indeed output a 10V signal, then it must get power from somewhere and the drivers are not generally required to provide power, so I think the N connection for the Siemens controller might be derived via the load circuit (the driver). To obtain a 10V output, you would then need to connect a LED driver module as shown in the Siemens diagram.

In this document http://tsp.plasa.org/tsp/documents/docs/Guide_E1-3.pdf section 6 has a few comments on testing and one suggests that you may need to connect a load of 10 - 100k to the output (0-10V output) when measuring the voltage. Colin's suggestion of using batteries is also mentioned.

I haven't been able to track down any documentation on the CM-40VAHD900C. I wonder if you have any other info? (I did wonder if there are any other markings under that label which is peeling off - perhaps you thought the same!)

I should add that I have no personal experience of these devices and my comments are based simply on what I have gleaned from your documents, others I've found and on basic electrics.

 

[superhp]

I have "solved" the problem by buying MeanWell LPF-40D-48 power supply which supports "passive" or resistance dimming. The problem was that Chinese power supply needed a real 0-10v while Siemens is just a simple potentiometer which doesn't provide it. It just change the resistance. BTW, MeanWell supports three types of dimming.
I still didn't test Chinese driver with the battery but I will try it one day and I believe it will work then
Thank you!