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How a BJT Transistor works (base current version)

How a BJT Transistor works (base current version)

Adam, do you think that the general working principle of the BJT depends on the applied frequency?

I rather think, we have the same situation as for ALL electronic parts:
They follow a certain working principle and they do what they are supposed to do (up to nearly 100%) - as long as no parasitics (always present!) come into play.
This applies to resistors, capacitors and - of course - also to BJT`s.
That means: For very large frequencies their "normal" and desired operation is degraded and disturbed by parasitic influences - however, this must not be interpreted as a change of the general operation principle.

Hi LvW

No I don't think it is frequency dependant only the fact that NPN and PNP are different even with the same parasitic components but that's not what I am talking about. What I am trying to do is tease out the anomaly that Claude is talking about and explain it. And this is the initial condition he is seeing which I think is down to parasitic components.

We are unable to remove these from the p-n junction so when measuring the current you will get a spike as can be demonstrated and at that point through measurement only you can not link Vbe to the current through the p-n junction.

If we wait for a moment for things to settle then measure we should find that any further increase in Vbe can be calculated to show the increase in current that relates to Vbe using the correct formula. Lets see if we can simulate this with a simple diode and ask Claude to point out this discrepancy he is seeing. Then we might be able to explain it.

Adam
 
Claude

You did show your findings with two diodes in your last example. So just to clarify are you also saying that the voltage across the p-n junction is also not indicative of the current through it? If so, if we simulate just a bog standard diode with a fast rising edge and say a 150R series resistor will we see the same result? I am just trying to make it a bit simpler as others might be following this also.

Thanks
Adam
 
I gave numerous examples, and I intend to add one, a synchronous rectifying FET where the body diode picks up current after channel is switched off, later today. But I assure you that Vbe is NOT an externally applied voltage. Even w/o resistors, base region rbb' spreading resistance, and re intrinsic emitter resistance exists. The Vbe' is the junction potential barrier, and that is the Vbe in Shockley's equation. You must know that one never applies a voltage source directly across b-e junction? Do you believe that one can do that?

Claude

I thought the V in the equation was the voltage across the p-n junction?

Sch_Equ.PNG
Thanks
Adam
 
I thought the V in the equation was the voltage across the p-n junction?

View attachment 18693
Thanks
Adam
Functional relation not causal. How can V exist before I in a p-n junction? Please take me through the sequence. A battery, a resistor, and a diode with a switch at the battery output. Switch closes, then what happens. How does the voltage on the diode take place, likewise for current I? Those who say that V causes I have not explained how. How can V exist w/o I, and vice-versa? How does voltage at the junction develop? The voltage is present because charges were transported through the junction. Recombination results in ionization and a depletion zone forms. An increase in current results in more ionization and stronger depletion zone E field, hence higher V.

If I is a result of V, then that would imply that I increases (decreases) due to a prior increase (decreases) in V. So how do you change V first w/o I then how does this new V initiate a new I?

Equations only give relations, but do not convey sequence of events. LvW said the same. You cannot answer which changes first by referencing equations. That is what I tell all the critics of the classical current control model of bjt.

In all my plots, Shockley's equation clearly does not hold during transient conditions, and it is all too clear that Vd/Vbe is NOT in control of Ie/Id. Cause MUST PRECEDE effect. That is sacrosanct. Only by perturbing a network and measuring parameters can we observe timing sequences. Equations do not convey that. One more time, take the classic Shockley diode relation:

a) Id = Is*exp((Vd/Vt)-1). Does everybody understand that the following is just as valid:

b) Vd=Vt*ln((Id/Is)+1).

In the power converter I showed, form a) best describes diode behavior when the FET is ON and the diode is reverse biased. The supply is right across the diode in reverse. Vd the reverse voltage is fixed, Id the reverse current is determined by Vd and temp along with Is. But with the FET turned off, inductor current continues into the diode which now starts to conduct, transitioning from reverse to forward bias. The current Id is already established, so when the current changes path from FET to diode, a voltage across the diode develops in accordance with current. Form b) of the equation describes diode behavior, the voltage is determined by the current, temp, and Is.

Please explain the diode behavior if you disagree. The current is already present, the diode voltage is not. How can the new diode forward voltage "control" the pre-existing inductor/diode current? Just asking, thanks to all for your interest and patience.

Claude
 
Did I say V before I? Sorry if I gave that impression. The voltage drop across a component is Joules per Coulomb which means there must be a current this is measured in volts.

Can we look at a simple diode simulation then. Shall I do it?

Adam
 
Did I say V before I? Sorry if I gave that impression. The voltage drop across a component is Joules per Coulomb which means there must be a current this is measured in volts.

Can we look at a simple diode simulation then. Shall I do it?

Adam
Adam, I would agree with that. A drop across a component is not even possible w/o current in said component. I think we agree. No doubt that this confusion arises because we live in a world surrounded by constant voltage sources (CVS) for out supplies of power. The wall outlet fed from the utility company is intentionally regulated for constant voltage. Conductors are lossier than insulators so it's better to generate and transmit at 100% voltagw while letting current vary with loading.

Batteries like carbon-zinc, alkaline, NiMH, etc., work better in constant voltage mode. Nuclear cells are better as current sources, but batteries with fissionable material will not likely become commercially available. Plutonium and U-235 available to anybody is likely not going to happen. Also, voltage references like band gaps and Zeners, are more precise than current references. Hence band gaps are used for precise applications, and Zeners otherwise. Current references do exist.

So as a result, it is very easy to get sloppy and think of voltage as being the independent quantity, with current dependent on voltage & impedance. Logic circuit stated (high and low) are defined in terms of voltage. Television/video signals are defined per voltage. A power distribution transformer is called "step up". But a xfmr which steps the voltage up is simultaneously stepping current DOWN. But we call it step up because the power grid quantity that is regulated is voltage, not current. Since the voltage is stepped up, we use that term "step up".

Many regard voltage as causal or the "control" quantity because it seems so intuitive. A voltage across an impedance results in a current. That seems plausible until one studies transmission line theory. I cannot delve into that now, but I will say that the utility company can easily regulate the power grid for constant current instead of voltage. The losses would be greater, unless high temp superconductors can be made. For now CVS is how it's done.

With amplifiers, the output quantity is usually voltage, as well as input. It is convenient to relate transistor parameters to voltage gain, transconductance, and current gain, because all are important. A bjt is naturally amenable to being current driven, naturally hostile to voltage drive, so we develop circuits with this in mind. If an input signal generator is a voltage source, we can drive a bjt with it, or LED, or any forward biased p-n junction, as long as we use a resistor, or current drive network. Input to output relations are derived for both I & V.

Sorry to run on, I will elaborate if need be. Thanks again.

Claude
 
No that's fine Claude I also have an understanding of transmission line theory it would be great to have a discussion at some point, but not here. But please answer my last post, I would like to get to the bottom of this.
Adam
 
No that's fine Claude I also have an understanding of transmission line theory it would be great to have a discussion at some point, but not here. But please answer my last post, I would like to get to the bottom of this.
Adam
Yes that is similar to what I see. The current rises then settles, and a short time later, the voltage eventually settles. Also worth noting is that the current peaks then starts to decrease, while at the same time the voltage is still increasing. Clearly the voltage is catching up with the current. In a capacitor, this is no surprise at all, it's how capacitance behaves. Eli the ice man has never been disproved, not once, not under any conditions.
 
And if I Zoom in. It shows the emitter current decreasing at the voltage rises. Then they both settle down to be constant. All this tells me is the capacitor is charging. They both have a similar curve.
Thanks
Adam

Edit: Should be charging.

Diode2.PNG
 
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And if I Zoom in. It shows the emitter current decreasing at the voltage rises. Then they both settle down to be constant. All this tells me is the capacitor is discharging. They both have a similar curve.
Thanks
Adam

View attachment 18706
But if the voltage allegedly "CONTROLS" the current, why is a rising voltage "forcing" a falling current" Illogical. It demonstrates one thing for sure. In general, it is NOT correct to say that this voltage is what controls this current, nor vice-versa. The external parts and power/signal sources force the network behavior. In the process of transporting charges through a junction, I & V are affected. Depending on the conditions, either one can take place first, although in a capacitive region, current will change first. But in general, one is not the cause or controller of the other.

For a diode, it is clear that the Shockley equation is merely a functional relation between I & V. Which is dependent vs. independent can be either/or. Conditions force that issue. I was merely replying to the assertion that IN GENERAL, one cannot say that V controls I, nor the other way around. Do you agree with that?

Claude
 
" How can V exist before I in a p-n junction?"

Claude - to understand your way of thinking, let me ask the following question:

Does this (I before V) apply also for the gate-source path of FET`s (charging the input capacitance) ?
 
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But if the voltage allegedly "CONTROLS" the current, why is a rising voltage "forcing" a falling current" Illogical. It demonstrates one thing for sure. In general, it is NOT correct to say that this voltage is what controls this current, nor vice-versa. The external parts and power/signal sources force the network behavior. In the process of transporting charges through a junction, I & V are affected. Depending on the conditions, either one can take place first, although in a capacitive region, current will change first. But in general, one is not the cause or controller of the other.

For a diode, it is clear that the Shockley equation is merely a functional relation between I & V. Which is dependent vs. independent can be either/or. Conditions force that issue. I was merely replying to the assertion that IN GENERAL, one cannot say that V controls I, nor the other way around. Do you agree with that?

Claude

The reason a rising voltage is seen to be causing a reduction in current is because the diodes diffusion current is small compared to the capacitor transient current because the input voltage has not caused the diode to conduct significant current at that point.

Adam
 
" How can V exist before I in a p-n junction?"

Claude - to understand your way of thinking, let me ask the following question:

Does this (I before V) apply also for the gate-source path of FET`s (charging the input capacitance) ?

Yes, gate current precedes gate-source voltage. But gate current and its source current displacement component do not result in an immediate change in drain current. In order for drain current to change, the conducting channel path must undergo a change in charge density. Say a FET is open, Vgs=0. Then a source charges Vgs. THe gate current is immediate and maximum when Vgs=0, Vgs increases while Ig decreases. But the drain current does not track/follow the gate current Ig. As Vgs builds up, charges accumulate in the drain-source channel. An N-FET has a substrate that is actually P material. Without bringing electrons into the channel, it is high resistance.

But as Vgs and charge build up, the channel becomes more conductive. The drain-source terminals are biased with a voltage source Vdd. As the channel gains electrons, conduction begins. This process is inversion. The p type channel and n type drain cannot conduct as they form a reverse biased diode. But when Vgs is raised above the threshold (enhancement MOSFET n channel for this example), negative charges, i.e. electrons enter the channel and invert the polarity. The density of electrons after Vgs is fully charged (10 volts or so ,less for logic FETs), is greater than the hole density was in the same region which is p channel. Hence drain current is conducted.

The key here is that the changes in drain current happens only after the channel has accumulated enough electrons to invert its polarity. Although Ig PRECEDED Vgs, nothing happens re drain current until channel has inverted. The change in drain current happens only after negative charges have been brought into the channel inverting it from p type to n type.

Thus, the drain current is controlled by the conductivity of the channel between drain and source. The capacitance is very non-linear. The drain current is controlled by charge, but a low to medium speed, biased around a dc q-point, we can small signal linearize the Vgs to be proportional to charge per Qgs=CgsVgs. Thus the conductivity of drain-source channel is controlled by Q the charge, or roughly by Vgs the gate-source voltage.

Although Ig precedes Vgs, the drain current does not change immediately in response to Ig, but later after Vgs has developed. This is in stark contrast to a bjt. A change in Ie will eventually force a change in Vbe. But Ic responds **immediately** to the Ie change, Vbe catches up as my plots reveal. THe FET is different, Ig comes first, but Id stays the same, until later after Vgs changes, then Id changes. I can post a sim for a FET to illustrate this action. Best regards.

Claude
 
To the Ineffable All,

The BJT technology is old and mature. A lot is known about how BJTs work. Everything should be referenced by the physics of the device, and not the circuit in which they are used. A lot of the previous discussion is concerned with what happens first. That is like chasing the chicken and egg. So a review of the physics of the transistor is in order. It is important to realize that the BJT is a diffusion controlled device. When the emitter and base semiconductor slabs are put together, the two types of charge carriers diffuse in each other's territory and neutralize each other until the uncovered charges establish a equilibrium with a back-voltage that halts further diffusion. The collector voltage removes or replaces, depending the type of BJT, the charge carriers. In order to keep the charge flow going, a voltage vbe is applied to the base. This reduces the back-voltage and allows a current to exist to the collector, which is limited by a new equilibrium of the uncovered charges. Therefore, the voltage vbe controls the availability of the charge carriers at the base which the collector can process. Cranking up the collector voltage will not change the collector current much because the collector voltage does not control the charge availability, the vbe does. This makes the collector act like a current source. Since the vbe controls the collector by diffusion, we get a exponential response like other diffusion activities in other mediums like liquids do. Furthermore, since a voltage vbe (input) controls the collector current (output), that makes the BJT a transconductance device, not a current control device. There will always be a certain amount of waste current that escapes into the base circuit, but this waste Ib does not control Ic. It is proportional to Ic, and thus is an indicator of Ic, but not a control of Ic. If anyone disagrees with this assessment of the BJT I will be glad to explain and refute.

Ratch
 
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Some good points there Ratch. I don't quite understand why people keep going on about this chicken and egg thingy. I think there is always a sequence of events, I am pretty sure the laws of physics can tell us this. We just need to ask the correct question with the correct terminology to get the correct answer.

Adam
 
Quote Claude: "Yes, gate current precedes gate-source voltage."

Claude, it took a long time until - I hope so - I was able to understand your way of thinking (and your definition of "control")..
To make it clear to me: I think, you would NOT agree that a dc motor is controlled by a dc voltage, correct?
Instead, you would say "current-controlled or field-controlled, or..."


That means: I am beginning to understand what you mean while saying "current precedes voltage" - however, for my opinion a rather "unconventional" way of decribing the working principles of transistors (BJT as well FET).

I am neither a scientist nor a physicist - I feel and think as an engineer.
That means: To me is the BJT a three-terminal device with a defined output signal (current Ic) and the possibility to "steer" (to "control") this output signal using the third terminal (base). For this purpose, I apply an electrical quantity to this node (base voltage against emitter potential).
In short: I am interested only in the external signal which is able to cause a change of the BJT`s output quantity.
And that`s what we are doing when we measure and record all the BJT parameters and characteristic curves (we cannot measure the diffusion voltage, for example).

More than that, for my opinion, this view is also in accordance with the general definition of the term "control"
:
The controlling quantity is externally applied to the controlling input node (without the necessity to know in detail what happens inside the black box).
Coming back to my above example: That`s the reason we speak about a voltage-controlled dc motor. (I am not a specialist in motors, but I think its true).


Final question: Could you agree to the following?
The value of the collector current of a BJT is determined by an externally applied voltage between base and emitter terminals.
That`s what we can observe. And that´s the primary property we need to know for designing an understanding all application circuits..
 
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Quote Claude: "Yes, gate current precedes gate-source voltage."

Claude, it took a long time until - I hope so - I was able to understand your way of thinking (and your definition of "control")..
To make it clear to me: I think, you would NOT agree that a dc motor is controlled by a dc voltage, correct?
Instead, you would say "current-controlled or field-controlled, or..."


That means: I am beginning to understand what you mean while saying "current precedes voltage" - however, for my opinion a rather "unconventional" way of decribing the working principles of transistors (BJT as well FET).

I am neither a scientist nor a physicist - I feel and think as an engineer.
That means: To me is the BJT a three-terminal device with a defined output signal (current Ic) and the possibility to "steer" (to "control") this output signal using the third terminal (base). For this purpose, I apply an electrical quantity to this node (base voltage against emitter potential).
In short: I am interested only in the external signal which is able to cause a change of the BJT`s output quantity.
And that`s what we are doing when we measure and record all the BJT parameters and characteristic curves (we cannot measure the diffusion voltage, for example).

More than that, for my opinion, this view is also in accordance with the general definition of the term "control"
:
The controlling quantity is applied to the external controlling input node (without the necessity to know in detail what happens inside the black box).
Coming back to my above example: That`s the reason we speak about a voltage-controlled dc motor. (I am not a specialist in motors, but I think its true).


Final question: Could you agree to the following?
The value of the collector current of a BJT is determined by an externally applied voltage between base and emitter terminals.
That`s what we can observe.
No! Externally applied voltage between base and emitter terminals will destroy the bjt. A bjt must be current driven. An externally applied current into the emitter is best. An externally applied current to the base results in beta dependency.

If I connected a 0.65 volt CVS across b-e junction, the ensuing emitter current is : Ies*exp((Vbe/Vt)-1). But Ies increases w/ temp non-linearly, while Vt increases as well in proportion to absolute temp. Thus Ies dominates. The 0.65 volts times the emitter current is power, which results in a temp increase. Ies goes up, Ie goes up, so power keeps going up, meaning Ies increases, Ie increases, power increases, temp increases, Ies increases, Ie increases ---------. We have a condition known as **thermal runaway**.

Instead, let us apply an external **current source** to the emitter terminal and force Ie to a fixed value, letting Vbe settle to whatever value Ies, and temp dictate. Ie is the value of the CCS, so Vbe=Vt*exp((Ie/Ies)+1). With Vbe*Ie we have power and temp increases. But notice here that Vt is in the numerator, and Ies is in the denominator. The slight rise in Vt is overwhelmed by the large rise in Ies, which forces Vbe downward. Instead of thermal runaway, the bjt settles at a safe value of Ie and Vbe. Of course it goes without saying that the current source value must be within the bjt limits, a 5 amp source into a tiny small signal device would destroy it.
Anyway, that is why bjt devices are always current driven, never voltage driven.
If the external source is a voltage source, it cannot be connected across the b-e junction. But inserting a resistor in between works fine, and is standard procedure. With a resistor, the thermal runaway condition cannot happen since the resistor limits the current.

If the supply is 12 volts, with a 10 kohm resistor, the current can never exceed 1.2 mA. As the bjt heats up, Ies increases, but the resistor voltage drop will eventually approach the value of the supply and equilibrium is reached. If Vbe is 0.70 V, then resistor drops 11.30 V, so Ie = 1.13 mA. At high temp a p-n junction can conduct large current with small voltage drop, so if Vbe drops to 0.60 V, Ie = 1.14 mA. If Vbe = 0.80 V, Ie = 1.12 mA. Resistors in series stabilize the operating point and prevent thermal runaway.

SO a bjt stage, can be driven or controlled by either a voltage source or current source. With a current source, one can drive the b-e junction directly. But with a voltage source, a resistor is needed. By inserting a resistor in series with the voltage source, we are fixing the emitter current to a specific value, and relying upon alpha for collector current, alpha being very predictable. If we insert the resistor on the base side and fix Ib, then Ic is equal to beta*Ib, which is a beta dependent circuit, not desirable in most applications.

A LIn topology 3-stage op amp or power amp has a differential front stage, common emitter 2nd stage, and emitter follower or complimentary feedback pair output buffer 3rd stage. The diff amp stage outputs a current at one collector of the diff pair. This current feeds the b-e junction of 2nd stage bjt. The 2nd stage output current = Ic2 = beta2*Ib2. In an op amp, global open loop gain is beta dependent. The Aol value varies w/ 2nd stage beta value, it's a fact. Do I make sense? BR.

Claude
 
No! Externally applied voltage between base and emitter terminals will destroy the bjt. A bjt must be current driven. An externally applied current into the emitter is best. An externally applied current to the base results in beta dependency.

If I connected a 0.65 volt CVS across b-e junction, the ensuing emitter current is : Ies*exp((Vbe/Vt)-1). But Ies increases w/ temp non-linearly, while Vt increases as well in proportion to absolute temp. Thus Ies dominates. The 0.65 volts times the emitter current is power, which results in a temp increase. Ies goes up, Ie goes up, so power keeps going up, meaning Ies increases, Ie increases, power increases, temp increases, Ies increases, Ie increases ---------. We have a condition known as **thermal runaway**.

Instead, let us apply an external **current source** to the emitter terminal and force Ie to a fixed value, letting Vbe settle to whatever value Ies, and temp dictate. Ie is the value of the CCS, so Vbe=Vt*exp((Ie/Ies)+1). With Vbe*Ie we have power and temp increases. But notice here that Vt is in the numerator, and Ies is in the denominator. The slight rise in Vt is overwhelmed by the large rise in Ies, which forces Vbe downward. Instead of thermal runaway, the bjt settles at a safe value of Ie and Vbe. Of course it goes without saying that the current source value must be within the bjt limits, a 5 amp source into a tiny small signal device would destroy it.
Anyway, that is why bjt devices are always current driven, never voltage driven.
If the external source is a voltage source, it cannot be connected across the b-e junction. But inserting a resistor in between works fine, and is standard procedure. With a resistor, the thermal runaway condition cannot happen since the resistor limits the current.

If the supply is 12 volts, with a 10 kohm resistor, the current can never exceed 1.2 mA. As the bjt heats up, Ies increases, but the resistor voltage drop will eventually approach the value of the supply and equilibrium is reached. If Vbe is 0.70 V, then resistor drops 11.30 V, so Ie = 1.13 mA. At high temp a p-n junction can conduct large current with small voltage drop, so if Vbe drops to 0.60 V, Ie = 1.14 mA. If Vbe = 0.80 V, Ie = 1.12 mA. Resistors in series stabilize the operating point and prevent thermal runaway.

SO a bjt stage, can be driven or controlled by either a voltage source or current source. With a current source, one can drive the b-e junction directly. But with a voltage source, a resistor is needed. By inserting a resistor in series with the voltage source, we are fixing the emitter current to a specific value, and relying upon alpha for collector current, alpha being very predictable. If we insert the resistor on the base side and fix Ib, then Ic is equal to beta*Ib, which is a beta dependent circuit, not desirable in most applications.

A LIn topology 3-stage op amp or power amp has a differential front stage, common emitter 2nd stage, and emitter follower or complimentary feedback pair output buffer 3rd stage. The diff amp stage outputs a current at one collector of the diff pair. This current feeds the b-e junction of 2nd stage bjt. The 2nd stage output current = Ic2 = beta2*Ib2. In an op amp, global open loop gain is beta dependent. The Aol value varies w/ 2nd stage beta value, it's a fact. Do I make sense? BR.

Claude

You aver that a BJT must be current driven. Not quite true. A BJT must be current limited, like just about any electronic device (anybody say resistor?) Anyway, a BJT is still a transconductance device. That means that in the active region, the vbe will control the Ic. You can observe that by plotting the Ic vs vbe values and observing a one to one relationship of an exponential curve. If you use a current source instead of a voltage source, then you are plotting a BJT circuit, not just the BJT itself. This is because a current source implies a large external resistor in series with the input. But vbe still controls the Ic even when the base circuit is current driven.

Ratch
 
No! Externally applied voltage between base and emitter terminals will destroy the bjt. A bjt must be current driven. An externally applied current into the emitter is best.
Claude

Claude - I am afraid, you are mixing two things.
As far as I understand, we are discussing here the working principle of a BJT - and NOT how to design a temperature and tolerance stabilized gain stage.
It is really not necessary to repeat all the problems connected with temperature effects. I think, it`s better to concentrate on the main question.
You are overwhelming us with details which could distract from the core of the question.
Are you not able to abstract (correct wording?) the question of "how to control" from "how to design"?
Nobody - even not me - would connect a battery of 0.65 Volts across the BE junction - but that`s not the point!
We should be able to perform something like a thought experiment to reveal the real properties of such a device.
And it does not help at all if you again and again point to the fact that temperature effects require certain stabilzation measures.
I suppose, in the past you have already designed some BJT gain stages.?
Question: (I am curious if you will answer): Did you choose a high or a low resistance niveau for the voltage divider at the base terminal? And WHY?

As far as my person is concerned, I should stop the discussion now - no, it is not really a discussion because you didn`t answer questions up to now.
You do not comment my examples and observations, you do not present any diagrams/justifications supporting your claims ( "an externally applied current into the emitter is best"). Can you show us such a gain stage having a current injected into the emitter? And you do not respond to my final question (post#77).


LvW
 
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