WinQCad vs. EagleCAD

[Nico Coesel]

Well, Dutch law seems to be, ahem, strange. AFAIK in pretty much any
other Western country you'd be required to hand over the stolen goods.

So if someone steals your car and sells it, can the new "owner" really
keep it when the Rijkspolitie stops him and finds out?

If the new owner can proof he bought the car in good faith, he can
keep it. This is about limiting the number of victims to a crime.
Besides most people are insured against theft over here.

No, he is the victim of a criminal act committed by someone else.

A crime he had nothin to do with. So why should he be punished? Its
not like in the war where they shot a few innocent people to set an
example.

If you find the silver bullet in how to disable illegal copies I am sure
they would offer you a lucrative job instantly. But then you'd have to
move and learn Bavarian

There is always the lmlicense manager. Not ideal but it does work and
has become an industry standard for a reason. Probably too expensive
for Cadsoft or the 'not invented here' syndrome got in the way.

 

[Baron]

Baron wrote:
[...]

The guy copied something from someone else's work
to use in his own.
So he was trying to save himself some work.
I've no problem with that.

I have always assumed he was given full permission
to reuse anything in the document he received.

In that case the person giving him such permission has acted
criminally, by creating this work with an illegal copy of software.
Very simple, IMHO.

[...]

Agreed !

 

[Joerg]

Nico Coesel wrote:
[...]

A few sentences later, quote "This evil schema part creaped into
quite some of my designs with which the only option I have now is
to recapture their schemas from scratch!"
[...]

When it comes to importing stuff that was made with illegal hackware I
see that differently. This case was unfortunate in that the guy who
imported it obviously did not know that the designer had used an
illegal copy. But as I said, in the same way if you receive a fake
100-Euro bill the same thing can happen in that the cashier at the
Hema store refuses it and you have no rights other than sue the guy
who gave it to you.
From the above it sounds more like they won't accept the fake bill *and
then they confiscate all your genuine money too*.

If it just rejected the part with a warning "part MC68HC11 created with
illegal copy", and allowed you to delete it, that would be more
reasonable. Why deliberatly infect the designs of honest customers?

We don't know whether it was just a model. Sounds more like part of a
schematic.

I think this is the original thread:

Do we know it was actually a library part alone that caused this?

It was a voltage regulator, apparantly. I am not familiar with Eagle so
don't know whether this would normally be a "library part" or a circuit
fragment.

Quote from the original thread: "I downloaded a little Eagle project
somewhere from a website I can't even remember. It happened that back
then, I reused a very small part of this schema (with copy and paste) in
one of my projects and continued to copy and paste the same part from my
project into a couple of other projects of mine later on."

That sounds more like a chunk of schematic, not just one library part.
This is exactly how rumors start and can get totally out of hand

I don't know where the poster is from but apparently Europe and folks in
France and NL use the word schema for schematic diagram.

 

[Joerg]

You and I will never see eye to eye on "intellectual property".
e.g. In a time when tools make the creative process ever easier,
I see the ever-increasing time spans in laws
as a perversion of the intent of The Founding Fathers:
http://google.com/search?q=cache:xO...75-*+120-*+registration+last+last+for-*-Times

See? So they could keep this for 120 years

...and a remote kill switch THAT ISN'T REVEALED
is more than just bad faith; it is a breach of contract law.

AFAIK not in the US and not in most other Western countries. In the same
way that a crook was caught yesterday when he stole a Land Rover and
drove himself to his court (!) appointment. The car had a LoJack
installed, so ...

 

[Baron]

You and I will never see eye to eye on "intellectual property".
e.g. In a time when tools make the creative process ever easier,
I see the ever-increasing time spans in laws
as a perversion of the intent of The Founding Fathers:
http://google.com/search?q=cache:xO...75-*+120-*+registration+last+last+for-*-Times

...and a remote kill switch THAT ISN'T REVEALED
is more than just bad faith; it is a breach of contract law.

Quote from original.
"I downloaded a little Eagle project somewhere from a
website I can't even remember. It happened that back then, I reused a
very small part of this schema (with copy and paste) in one of my
projects and continued to copy and paste the same part from my project
into a couple of other projects of mine later on. I forgot the schema
I downloaded from said website"

Quote from <http://google.com/search?q=define:plagiarist>
--> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarist.
"Plagiarism, as defined in the 1995 Random House Compact Unabridged
Dictionary, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts
of another author and the representation of them as one's own original
work. ..."

 

[Joerg]

If the new owner can proof he bought the car in good faith, he can
keep it. This is about limiting the number of victims to a crime.
Besides most people are insured against theft over here.

That is the perfect recipe to instill the thought that crime does pay.
Not good at all. Even many honest people will be taught by such laws to
"look the other way" when buying an iPhone or a Rolex from the guy with
the tattoos on the street corner because he has those "super deals".
Because they get to keep it no matter what. I am glad we do not have
such a law.

A crime he had nothin to do with. So why should he be punished? Its
not like in the war where they shot a few innocent people to set an
example.

Nope. You need to restrict the use of data material to that from trusted
sources. Or would you download some software just from anywhere?

There is always the lmlicense manager. Not ideal but it does work and
has become an industry standard for a reason. Probably too expensive
for Cadsoft or the 'not invented here' syndrome got in the way.

What license manager? The only alternatievs I saw in the CAD world are
MAC-lock and dongles. Both very cumbersome, at least for folks who must
travel like myself.

 

[Joerg]

Joerg wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
[...]

It's particularly easy to pass smog tests now that the bureaucrats
simply plug into an ECU port... dummies ;-)

Out here they still hang a probe into the tail pipe.
The car, or the driver?

Depending on your driving style to the place possibly both. Sometimes
the driver doesn't pass and then gets a ride in the sheriff's car.

Another good reason to live in Florida. No state income tax, and
very few insane state laws.

How's the weather there this time of year? Have to go on a biz trip,
West Palm Beach. On the news it looked like parts of FL were flooding
but don't remember where. Do I have to bring waders and rain gear?

A few clouds here today with the high in the mid 70s and the low in
the hig 40s. I haven't heard of any floding on the news lately, but
today was mostly about the shootings in Orlando. About five hours of
coverage, so far.

http://www.wftv.com/weather/index.html is the weather RADAR for the
central Florida area.

<http://www.wpbf.com/weather/grid.ht...ame=Interactive%20Radar;shortname=Interactive>
is the weather RADAR for the West Palm Beach Florida area

Thanks, Michael, just like here then except for higher humidity. I don't
like that blue thing heading north from the Caribbean though ;-)

 

[John Devereux]

Quote from original.
"I downloaded a little Eagle project somewhere from a
website I can't even remember. It happened that back then, I reused a
very small part of this schema (with copy and paste) in one of my
projects and continued to copy and paste the same part from my project
into a couple of other projects of mine later on. I forgot the schema
I downloaded from said website"

Quote from <http://google.com/search?q=define:plagiarist>
--> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarist.
"Plagiarism, as defined in the 1995 Random House Compact Unabridged
Dictionary, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts
of another author and the representation of them as one's own original
work. ..."

So the actions quoted are clearly not plagiarism. There is no evidence
that he acted illegally or was passing off someone elses work as his
own.

Unless you think anyone who uses a 3rd party library is a plagiarist?

 

[Baron]

So the actions quoted are clearly not plagiarism. There is no evidence
that he acted illegally or was passing off someone elses work as his
own.

Unless you think anyone who uses a 3rd party library is a plagiarist?

There is no mention of "library". He was using someone else's work !
Whether that work was done using a cracked copy of Eagle or not.
Its doubtful that he attributed anything to the original source.
Had he done so, then he could rightly argue about damage to his own
work. By his own admission he continued to use work that wasn't his to
use.

 

[krw]

If the insurance company has paid for the loss, they own it.

Leftist weenies don't care about insurance companies' property. Didn't
you get the memo? They're evil so have no rights.

 

[Marte Schwarz]

Hi Jörg,

We don't know whether it was just a model. Sounds more like part of a
schematic.

Yes, and remember please. The guy imported this peace of s... in earlier
versions. After updating he was blocked with all these designs that included
the piece of s... only because this guy made a copy &paste of a simple power
supply part from a sheet that was shared in the community. And because this
worked well for long time there was no sign not do this. IMHO way eagle do
this kind opf copy protection is really unacceptable. But as long as there
are powerful alternatives I don't see any reason why a big community stays
on eagle. Wrong: I know it: There are many "free" versions around. And a lot
of "owners" use the free one. This was initiated from Cadsoft workers (the
CEO himself AFAIR) by writing and selling Handbooks starting from: "How to
install Eagle" without any part of software. That is IMHO the invitation to
any "free user" that
1st there is a hacked version available and
2nd please search and use it
Doing this way they established a program to lots of users that knows how to
design their Boards with eagle, that has a very different way to do this. So
the investment to learn again with other software will be big enough that a
company will buy the software and accept their employers to use it.

Thats not the smart way of selling. I will never use such software.

Marte

 

[Joerg]

Hi Jörg,


Yes, and remember please. The guy imported this peace of s... in earlier
versions. After updating he was blocked with all these designs that included
the piece of s... only because this guy made a copy &paste of a simple power
supply part from a sheet that was shared in the community. And because this
worked well for long time there was no sign not do this. IMHO way eagle do
this kind opf copy protection is really unacceptable. But as long as there
are powerful alternatives I don't see any reason why a big community stays
on eagle. Wrong: I know it: There are many "free" versions around. And a lot
of "owners" use the free one. This was initiated from Cadsoft workers (the
CEO himself AFAIR) by writing and selling Handbooks starting from: "How to
install Eagle" without any part of software. That is IMHO the invitation to
any "free user" that
1st there is a hacked version available and
2nd please search and use it
Doing this way they established a program to lots of users that knows how to
design their Boards with eagle, that has a very different way to do this. So
the investment to learn again with other software will be big enough that a
company will buy the software and accept their employers to use it.

Thats not the smart way of selling. I will never use such software.

I doubt they wanted to encourage clandestine use. There is a free
version of Eagle with some limits but good enough and legit for hobby
use. However, of course you do not get a handbook unless you buy one
somewhere or live with a PDF file. I have never used the free version
except to try it out before buying but I do not believe schematics
created with this free version would cause DRM issues. What causes the
issues is when someone uses a hacked version of the full layout package,
because that is hardcore illegal.

For some reason I never had any such problems in all the years I use
Eagle. So, what CAD are you using?

 

[Marte Schwarz]

Hi Jörg,

I doubt they wanted to encourage clandestine use. There is a free version
of Eagle with some limits but good enough and legit for hobby

Shure it was. The free version is available years later than the spoken
books.

Eagle. So, what CAD are you using?

I used Ultiboard since version 5.xx that is pretty old now. When I bought my
version they approved that I will get every update free and have to pay only
for upgrades. But few releases later the company was sold and the new
updates were no more free. I don't know how much more sellings later
Ultiboard is part of NI but I don't have anymore practice with it. Later I
had to use Protel98se @ work. Pretty ugly compared to Ultiboard at this
time. Few Years later the workgroup switchses to Mentor Graphics "Verybest"
aka "Expedition PCB" because it is really "cheap" to get if you are member
of Europractice. And well: It is the best program I've ever seen in this
matter. But these times are gone. Last time I had no pcbs to do so I may
wait with new decissions. I played a bit with KICAD that seems to be good
enough for me...
Hint: If the only thing that you miss is the ugly frame: Just Print via
Postscript and remove it ;-)

Marte

 

[Joerg]

Hi Jörg,


Shure it was. The free version is available years later than the spoken
books.

Ok, I didn't know that.

I used Ultiboard since version 5.xx that is pretty old now. When I bought my
version they approved that I will get every update free and have to pay only
for upgrades. But few releases later the company was sold and the new
updates were no more free. I don't know how much more sellings later
Ultiboard is part of NI but I don't have anymore practice with it. Later I
had to use Protel98se @ work. Pretty ugly compared to Ultiboard at this
time. Few Years later the workgroup switchses to Mentor Graphics "Verybest"
aka "Expedition PCB" because it is really "cheap" to get if you are member
of Europractice. And well: It is the best program I've ever seen in this
matter. But these times are gone. Last time I had no pcbs to do so I may
wait with new decissions. I played a bit with KICAD that seems to be good
enough for me...
Hint: If the only thing that you miss is the ugly frame: Just Print via
Postscript and remove it ;-)

It also has some auto-numbering issues and auto-numbering is what I need
a lot, on every design.

I grew up with Futurenet Dash-2, then Dash-4. After starting
self-employed I bought OrCad SDT. That was the best CAD ever made but
the Windows versions came with a huge drop in quality, IMHO. So now I am
in the market. Eagle is ok but for now not forever because it has no
hierarchy.

We have no such thing as Europractice so it's always full price. But a
lot of stuff is less expensive over here.

 

[Nico Coesel]

There is no mention of "library". He was using someone else's work !
Whether that work was done using a cracked copy of Eagle or not.
Its doubtful that he attributed anything to the original source.

So you declare you never ever used a (piece of) circuit from a
magazine? Or an application note?

Some IC vendors even offer diagrams in several formats. Is it wrong to
use that?

 

[Baron]

So you declare you never ever used a (piece of) circuit from a
magazine? Or an application note?

Some IC vendors even offer diagrams in several formats. Is it wrong to
use that?

Thats hardly the point ! I don't know of a magazine or a vendor that
produces an application note etc, that doesn't retain copyright ! But
in using their work its normal to attribute the source. Indeed even
in "Open Source" work, derived works normally attribute the original.

 

[Joerg]

[...]

There is no mention of "library". He was using someone else's work !
Whether that work was done using a cracked copy of Eagle or not.
Its doubtful that he attributed anything to the original source.

So you declare you never ever used a (piece of) circuit from a
magazine? Or an application note?

Two very different things. I can honestly say that I have never used a
circuit from a magazine for a commercial design, IOW where I get paid
for the design. For Hobby, yes I have, as a teenager.

With application notes it is usually encouraged to use the circuits in
there because the whole purpose is to promote sales of the underlying
devices. It is like using the templates that come with some software.

Some IC vendors even offer diagrams in several formats. Is it wrong to
use that?

If offered as a suggestion of how to use their product, typically there
is no problem. But if in doubt one must still ask.

 

[John Devereux]

There is no mention of "library". He was using someone else's work !
Whether that work was done using a cracked copy of Eagle or not.
Its doubtful that he attributed anything to the original source.
Had he done so, then he could rightly argue about damage to his own
work. By his own admission he continued to use work that wasn't his to
use.

If anyone goes to the touble of putting up an Eagle format CAD file on
their web site it seems very likely this is specifically so that other
users can benefit from using it. Certainly you cannot just default to
assuming any use is plagiarism.

There is no evidence that he acted illegally or was passing off someone
elses work as his own.

 

[JosephKK]

True hackers know how to switch back to "factory" settings during
inspection ;-)

It's particularly easy to pass smog tests now that the bureaucrats
simply plug into an ECU port... dummies ;-)

...Jim Thompson

California still runs exhaust gas analyzers, and does not interrogate
the ECU.

 

[Joerg]

California still runs exhaust gas analyzers, ...

Yup. That's how it should be done. Anything else opens the big barn door
to fraud, deception and cheating by "We'll make any car pass" sort of shops.

... and does not interrogate the ECU.

They do connect to the jack under the dash.