Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?

D

David Maynard

Mxsmanic said:
David Maynard writes:




Not surprised at all, given what I know of him and the company (and
their history). But reading the latest trendy books on management for
tips when you're in charge of a multi-billion dollar company is a bit
worrisome. CEOs of large and successful companies are supposed to be
in a position to write books about their own successful techniques,
rather than try to pick them up from others.

I don't know a thing about him but even a genius would be foolish to not
read up even if for no other reason to see what your competition is doing.
Some do, some don't.

I'd sure worry about the one's who don't.
A lot of trade rags aren't worth reading.

Oh come on. You know that's a straw man.

It's the stuff of legend. There were good reasons for it; it's just
that IBM tried to apply the same philosophy to very different markets,
unsuccessfully.

Yep. That's what I mean about transporting 'visions'.
It seems self-evident that what works for mainframes
would not work for PCs, but apparently this never occurred to IBM,
even though it certainly occurred to others.

Yeah, I know, but it seems to be a common problem. But then that's also
what spawns industry mantras like "don't stray from your core business" and
why in risk management anything you haven't done before it automatically
flagged a risk no matter how trivial it seems. It ain't 'trivial' because
you don't know enough to know whether it's 'trivial' or not.

But now others are making similar mistakes. One reason why Microsoft
has such a terrible time trying to break into the server market is
that it has absolutely no clue on how that market works. To
Microsoft, everything is just like a desktop, just as IBM saw
everything as a mainframe. A lot of people at Microsoft don't even
know what a mainframe is, and yet they are trying to sell into a
comparable market.

In that case they have the wrong development process because the first
thing they should do is acquire the knowledge, one way or the other.
Alas, most companies don't hire on the basis of intelligence. And the
larger they get, the more unintelligent deadwood they acquire.

Well, they *think* they are.

Maybe the problem is that deadwood floats ;)
Even if they are something new and different, most people using
computers don't want to continually change to something new and
different. They just want a tool that works; and once it works,
they're content to leave it untouched forever (and in fact that's what
they prefer).

Of course, and that's why I said it takes something significant to the
primary mission.
Would you be willing to buy a new washing machine every year, each one
with a completely different way of operating and a whole new set of
instructions?

No, but if it were 1930 and I had a hand crank unit I might be willing to
'upgrade' to one of them new fangled electric 'automatic' ones even though
its still just a washing machine.

Yes. But remember that the market was microscopic in those days
compared to today. The inertia is much greater now. Additionally,
users today are much more likely to have all they need in current
operating systems, and so are even less likely to change.

It's true there's more inertia but I've heard the "all you likely need"
argument since DOS came out.

There are simply things you can do with the 32bit architecture that you
can't with the 16.
First we need a reason for these things. Most users have no reason to
care about any of these developments. Many users can still get by
with Windows 3.1 functionality; a far greater number are happy with
Windows 95 (tons of people are still running it, and I don't ever
expect them to change).

Well, that people need a reason *first* simply isn't true and if anything
proves it its the computer itself as you couldn't find more than a handful
of people who could think of a dern thing to use one for when 'home
computers' first came out, and there's still some who can't ;)

Computers are one of, if not the, most synergistic products ever devised
with more powerful computers enabling applications previously unheard of
and developers dreaming of applications current machines can't handle
spurring them on to ever more power. And people who thought a typewriter
was perfectly fine now can't live without publisher quality full graphics.

You know, I can remember when a telephone was for speaking to someone, not
taking pictures, PDA, WAP, and text messaging. You think anyone really
'needed' those 'first'?
But increasingly similar management mistakes. DEC seemed very
different from IBM, too, but it eventually succumbed to the same
management errors.

I just think they're different errors ;)
If he's truly brilliant, he'll see the end of buggy whips coming and
steer his company into other domains before it happens. But CEOs tend
to fall in love with whatever brought them their first big successes,
and then they don't want to think about anything else later on.

That's because its where their 'great idea' and experience/insight lives
and saying the buggy whip CEO should steer the company to a new domain is
easier said than done. It just isn't obvious what else that magic 'crack'
his whips make applies to and even if he finds an alternative it's not
nearly as likely to be another 'great idea' but more of a settling for
'something'.

You can have a smart management team that serves the same purpose as a
genius. It doesn't really matter how you do it, as long as you get
the critical mass of intelligence together at the top.

I agree and you're coming close to the 'process' approach. Just needs a tad
bit larger 'team', and the process.
Yes, I believe so. Bill Gates has never been gifted for domains
outside of his own, though. Just as Microsoft has no clue when it
comes to servers or mainframes, it has no clue when it comes to ISPs.

Yeah. But that was the thing we were musing about: where the man with the
'great idea' got the next 'great idea' and whether it was as easy as it
sounds. And whether the lack of new 'great ideas' was due to him being gone
and new management.

Yes.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what develops. I don't have any
stock in any of these companies, so I don't care for the most part,
but I am concerned for the stability of my operating system and
applications and hardware, as I don't like to break things that are
working, and I don't like to spend money or time needlessly.

Same here. Plus I like mulling over business practices. Who knows, maybe
I'll come up with a 'great idea' and be faced with the same problem some day ;)
 
D

David Maynard

John Doe wrote:

<snip>

It should have been enough that I said I didn't intend to discuss it with
you but, upon your insistence, I've given enough of the reasons why I don't
intend to discuss it with you that even you should be able to grasp that I
don't intend to discuss it with you.
 
D

David Maynard

Ed said:
Damn right David. I have enjoyed this thread more than any for
awhile.......:). I have no need to add anything......

Ed

It's nice to see others expressing the same feeling.
 
B

BillW50

Ranting troll

ROTFL!!! Still lying I see. Also you claim that Microsoft has a
monopoly on the desktop market. Yet to pull this off, you have to
ignore the *fact* there are millions of PCs not running Microsoft
software at all.

You also somehow believe that Microsoft killed off Netscape. Yet
Netscape is still in business today and is now owned by AOL. And the
old Netscape management screwed up royally. As Steve Case of AOL
really hated Microsoft and really wanted Netscape for its default
browser.

But Netscape wouldn't give what Steve wanted. They wouldn't
integrated it into AOL software. Plus they wanted AOL to pay for
every copy of Netscape (I believe it was 10 bucks each). And there
were millions of AOL users. That would add up to megabucks! Then
Microsoft came along and said we'll integrate it into AOL for you.
And you can have IE for free. Well Steve picked IE over Netscape.
And this is when Netscape started losing market share. Because
Netscape got greedy, they lost out. And that's the truth.


__________________________________________________
Bill (using a Toshiba 2595XDVD under Windows 2000)
-- written and edited within WordStar 5.0
 
M

Mikey

Everything is fine until a company stifles competition. In fact,
Microsoft holds a monopoly on personal computer operating system
software. Capitalists believe in competition. Microsoft has no
competition for Windows, mainly because of network effects and a
positive feedback loop. The only capitalists who adore Microsoft are
mainly those stockholders who have made a killing. Many capitalists
don't like Microsoft at all.

Trim your posts, you mouth breathing moron.
"DBLEXPOSURE" <celstuff hotmail.com> wrote:

[...] 182 lines of top-posted quoted material
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
But it all makes so much sense having lived through the era being
very interested in personal computing.

I don't understand this statement.
Because it puts the operating system maker's applications at a
significant advantage over the competition.
How?

Are you saying that Microsoft Office is only one application?
Yes.

So why wouldn't they be interoperable?

Because they would all use different file formats, for example.
That's $2,290,000,000 in one quarter.

Yes, and almost all of it is Microsoft Office.
I bet that's more than all other PC software companies combined.

It's not, but it's more than most individual software companies.
 
M

Mxsmanic

BillW50 said:
But Netscape wouldn't give what Steve wanted. They wouldn't
integrated it into AOL software. Plus they wanted AOL to pay for
every copy of Netscape (I believe it was 10 bucks each). And there
were millions of AOL users. That would add up to megabucks! Then
Microsoft came along and said we'll integrate it into AOL for you.
And you can have IE for free. Well Steve picked IE over Netscape.
And this is when Netscape started losing market share. Because
Netscape got greedy, they lost out. And that's the truth.

And then AOL bought Netscape just to put it to sleep, so that MSIE
would be less encumbered.
 
M

Mxsmanic

David said:
In that case they have the wrong development process because the first
thing they should do is acquire the knowledge, one way or the other.

They haven't done that. They've been able to make a lot of money
doing what they know how to do, so they've never developed the habit
of learning to do other things.

The aforementioned PhotoDraw 2000 was a classic example. It was
clearly written by people who were expert in using standard Windows
constructs and tools, people who knew the Windows interface inside and
out and could produce semi-transparent, glistening, rose-scented
context menus blindfolded ... but these people knew nothing whatsoever
about image processing, and the piece of junk they produced was an
absolute horror. It was quickly and quietly discontinued.
No, but if it were 1930 and I had a hand crank unit I might be willing to
'upgrade' to one of them new fangled electric 'automatic' ones even though
its still just a washing machine.

Someone might be willing to upgrade from an original PC to a brand-new
one today, too. But a lot of the intermediate upgrades are
unnecessary. And someone using an old PC to get things done doesn't
need an upgrade, as long as the old PC does the job.
It's true there's more inertia but I've heard the "all you likely need"
argument since DOS came out.

Some people still run DOS. Each newer version of a PC OS leaves more
and more people still running with prior versions. It gets harder and
harder to convince anyone to "upgrade," especially outside the geek
community.
There are simply things you can do with the 32bit architecture that you
can't with the 16.

But there are also things for which you don't need 32-bit
architecture.
Well, that people need a reason *first* simply isn't true and if anything
proves it its the computer itself as you couldn't find more than a handful
of people who could think of a dern thing to use one for when 'home
computers' first came out, and there's still some who can't ;)

And they still don't have computers.
You know, I can remember when a telephone was for speaking to someone, not
taking pictures, PDA, WAP, and text messaging. You think anyone really
'needed' those 'first'?

No. And I know that hardly anyone is using those extra features.
Same here. Plus I like mulling over business practices. Who knows, maybe
I'll come up with a 'great idea' and be faced with the same problem some day ;)

Ray Kroc came into his own in his fifties.
 
J

John Doe

troll
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From: Mikey <none all.nul>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?]
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:12:06 -0500
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Everything is fine until a company stifles competition. In fact,
Microsoft holds a monopoly on personal computer operating system
software. Capitalists believe in competition. Microsoft has no
competition for Windows, mainly because of network effects and a
positive feedback loop. The only capitalists who adore Microsoft are
mainly those stockholders who have made a killing. Many capitalists
don't like Microsoft at all.

Trim your posts, you mouth breathing moron.
"DBLEXPOSURE" <celstuff hotmail.com> wrote:

[...] 182 lines of top-posted quoted material
 
J

John Doe

Mxsmanic said:
I don't understand this statement.

Since you removed the context, it's no wonder.

That answer is on par with half of your arguments.
Because they would all use different file formats, for example.

Which doesn't mean anything by itself.
It's not,

Says the same guy who thinks Office is one application?

https://www.microsoft.com/msft/earnings/FY04/earn_rel_q1_04.mspx

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.


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From: Mxsmanic <mxsmanic gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?]
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J

John Doe

David said:
John Doe wrote:

<snip>

It should have been enough that I said I didn't intend to discuss it with
you but, upon your insistence, I've given enough of the reasons why I don't
intend to discuss it with you that even you should be able to grasp that I
don't intend to discuss it with you.

By the way, do you think Microsoft Office is one application?

That's so silly, just like your justification for dodging the
Microsoft Windows monopoly question.





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From: David Maynard <nospam private.net>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?]
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J

John Doe

Mxsmanic said:
vanagonvw gmail.com writes:

Microsoft won by being smarter than IBM. They certainly didn't do it
with money or influence or power, since they had none of these back
then.

Given your persistent single level quoting only, the context of your
argument is anybody's guess, but if you're talking about the time
Microsoft Windows succeeded over IBM's OS/2, Microsoft won the
battle by virtue of having all of the APIs from Windows 3.1 to use
with Windows 95, and the huge base of applications to go with it.



<Snipped the rest of Mxsmanic's trolling>
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

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From: Mxsmanic <mxsmanic gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: The truth about OS/2!!! [Re: Why aren't computer clocks as accurate as cheap quartz watches?]
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J

John Doe

David Maynard <nospam private.net> wrote:

....

But seriously. Microsoft was known to hold monopoly power over the
personal computer operating system market long before our courts
finalized the issue. Given our current state of justice, it might be
a moot point, but it's crystal clear to the vast majority of techies
who don't work for Microsoft.

From the federal district court of the United States.

"Microsoft possesses monopoly power in the market for
Intel-compatible PC operating systems."

From the federal appeals court of the United States.

"... we uphold the District Court's finding of monopoly power in its
entirety."

You must be wearing some heavy duty blinders.
 
D

David Maynard

John said:
By the way, do you think Microsoft Office is one application?

That's so silly, just like your justification for dodging the
Microsoft Windows monopoly question.

Well, I agree it's silly of you to keep hounding me.
 
D

David Maynard

John said:
David Maynard <nospam private.net> wrote:

...

But seriously. Microsoft was known to hold monopoly power over the
personal computer operating system market long before our courts
finalized the issue. Given our current state of justice, it might be
a moot point, but it's crystal clear to the vast majority of techies
who don't work for Microsoft.

From the federal district court of the United States.

"Microsoft possesses monopoly power in the market for
Intel-compatible PC operating systems."

From the federal appeals court of the United States.

"... we uphold the District Court's finding of monopoly power in its
entirety."

You must be wearing some heavy duty blinders.

Declining to discuss it with you does not suggest any particular opinion on
the subject regardless of your idiotic attempts to imply otherwise.
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
But seriously. Microsoft was known to hold monopoly power over the
personal computer operating system market long before our courts
finalized the issue.

The courts didn't finalize anything, except in a restricted legal
sense, and there was no general consensus on such questions before or
after the courts gave their opinions.

Few people dispute that Microsoft has a dominant position in a handful
of key markets, most notably in PC desktop operating systems. Whether
or not this is a monopoly or a harmful monopoly is a much more open
question.

Intel has a comparable market share (currently around 81%, vs. 94% for
Microsoft in the desktop OS arena), and yet it does not appear to
raise so many questions of monopoly. I think in part that is because
the average geek cannot fancy himself building a chip fabrication
facility and competing with Intel, whereas many geeks like to imagine
building a software product that somehow competes with Microsoft. And
many more geeks would like to work for Microsoft, which is more
willing to hire people with no education. Chips don't engender the
same emotions and envy, in any case.
 
D

David Maynard

Mxsmanic said:
David Maynard writes:




They haven't done that. They've been able to make a lot of money
doing what they know how to do, so they've never developed the habit
of learning to do other things.

The aforementioned PhotoDraw 2000 was a classic example. It was
clearly written by people who were expert in using standard Windows
constructs and tools, people who knew the Windows interface inside and
out and could produce semi-transparent, glistening, rose-scented
context menus blindfolded ... but these people knew nothing whatsoever
about image processing, and the piece of junk they produced was an
absolute horror. It was quickly and quietly discontinued.

Yeah. Bad development process.
Someone might be willing to upgrade from an original PC to a brand-new
one today, too. But a lot of the intermediate upgrades are
unnecessary.

The point is it depends on whether the 'upgrade' offers significant enough
functional improvement.
And someone using an old PC to get things done doesn't
need an upgrade, as long as the old PC does the job.

Well, pencil and paper 'does the job' too but a text processor does it
better, and a WYSIWYG word processor does it even better, depending on how
one defines 'better'.

"Does the job" is an insufficient description because everyone is managing
to 'do the job' with what they have till something better comes along and,
interestingly enough, it isn't always clear just how much 'better'
something is till it's used.
Some people still run DOS.

Well, some people still have no computer at all and I'm building a tube
amplifier. Neither says much about the state of the broader market, or
people in general, as they're fringe/niche situations.
Each newer version of a PC OS leaves more
and more people still running with prior versions.

That's true of any technological progression.
It gets harder and
harder to convince anyone to "upgrade," especially outside the geek
community.

You're assuming there just isn't anything 'left to do' that can matter and
I'm not willing to make that assumption.

But there are also things for which you don't need 32-bit
architecture.

So? There are things for which you don't 'need' a computer at all but that
doesn't mean no one needs computers.

You're losing track of the issue here, which was whether an O.S. 'upgrade'
can offer a significant enough improvement to warrant the 'upgrade', not
whether every last soul on the planet uses it. And I was pointing out that
the O.S. changes needed to take advantage of 32 bit technology, vs 16 bit
technology, was a significant enough performance increase.
And they still don't have computers.

I presume the 'they' you speak of is the last group because the others
discovered they 'needed' it after it was available.
No. And I know that hardly anyone is using those extra features.

Perhaps, but they're still selling a ton of them.
Ray Kroc came into his own in his fifties.

Yeah, and a very interesting story.
 
M

Mxsmanic

John said:
Given your persistent single level quoting only, the context of your
argument is anybody's guess, but if you're talking about the time
Microsoft Windows succeeded over IBM's OS/2, Microsoft won the
battle by virtue of having all of the APIs from Windows 3.1 to use
with Windows 95, and the huge base of applications to go with it.

OS/2 could have supported Windows applications, but it didn't (at
least not completely and well).

In those days Microsoft was the underdog, and the angry young males
were rooting for it instead of IBM. It's amusing to see how history
is now being revised so that the currently dominant player can be
portrayed as the bad guy even back then. We're not at war with
Eastasia, we're at war with Eurasia.
 
D

David Maynard

Mxsmanic said:
John Doe writes:




The courts didn't finalize anything, except in a restricted legal
sense, and there was no general consensus on such questions before or
after the courts gave their opinions.

Few people dispute that Microsoft has a dominant position in a handful
of key markets, most notably in PC desktop operating systems. Whether
or not this is a monopoly or a harmful monopoly is a much more open
question.

You need to be careful about the word 'monopoly' because the court's ruling
is routinely misstated. The court did not find that Microsoft was "a
monopoly" but that they "held monopoly power." They're not the same thing
and neither, in and of themselves alone, mean anything devious or illegal
took place.

Most people have a decent enough grasp of what a "monopoly" is but "holds
monopoly power" is a legal term of art that, in colloquial terms, is akin
to your comment that Microsoft has a dominate market position.

Technically, 'monopoly power' is the ability to control price and/or
exclude competition but you need not even do it, simply being 'able' to is
enough, and the courts often interpret 'control' to an easier
'significantly influence' and 'exclude' to 'significantly inhibit'.

"Monopoly Power" is not tied to market share although the courts often use
it as an 'indicator' anyway.

To make matters even more confusing, 'harsh' business practices, even by
someone holding monopoly power, is not necessarily an anti-trust violation
as the appeals court ruling in Intergraph Corporation v. Intel Corp., 195
F.3d 1346 (Fed. Cir. 1999) stated: "the Sherman Act does not convert all
harsh commercial actions into antitrust violations. Unilateral conduct that
may adversely affect another’s business situation, but is not intended to
monopolize that business, does not violate the Sherman Act."

The Netscape matter is interesting because they began by giving their
browser away then, when they had 84% market share, began charging for it,
which would seem to be an exercise in monopolistic power... but maybe no
one sued. Then, when Microsoft gives away their browser, Netscape brings
suit against Microsoft for doing the same thing they had done to get an 84%
market share.

Amusing, eh?
 
D

David Maynard

Mxsmanic said:
John Doe writes:




OS/2 could have supported Windows applications, but it didn't (at
least not completely and well).

Well, they did, in fact, eventually tout that OS/2 would 'run Windows
software' which, in market terms, is tantamount to declaring Windows 'the
standard'. And then one asks, why not just get 'the real thing'?

IBM completely misjudged the market and what 'the competition' was. It
wasn't 'windows', it was MS Office. People didn't give a rat's behind what
the O.S. was, they wanted Office to work and it ran on Windows so, you get
Windows.

Which is why OS/2 fans can scream all they want about how OS/2 was
'technically superior' because the only 'technical' thing that really
mattered to the market was how well MS Office ran.

Now, if IBM had teamed up with Wordperfect, back when Wordperfect was still
the defacto PC word processing standard, and developed a GUI version along
with OS/2 they might have been able to successfully compete in that arena.
 
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