Woo-Woo Why are there countless attempts to make magnets power generators..

[KrisBlueNZ]

It's tempting to imagine that there's a special position, or combination of positions, where statically positioned magnets could make a wheel spin; this is exactly the temptation that's being exploited by the creator of the "magnet motor" video you pointed us to, but it's not true, as BobK explained.
It's similar to the old-fashioned "perpetual motion" machines that rely on weights that move as the wheel turns, so that gravity acts on them to turn the wheel when they're on the downwards-moving part of the wheel, but not when they're on the upwards-moving part of the wheel. It doesn't work there, either.
I looked at that "magnet motor" video. It looks pretty convincing, but that doesn't make me think it's for real. All that tells me is that he's hidden the trick pretty well.

 

[Moha99]

Sorry I somehow sent the message before I finished. I have edited it to complete it now.

Well added input!

So in general even if the magnets could add speed to a system it will eventually slow it down. Are magnetic fields a conservative force or "non"conservative force?

In addition if they would increase speed to a certain level lets say I had a wheel and I added some magnets. I asked a friend to rotate that wheel as you said previously there are some magnets stationed to only "oppose" them not attract. Will that wheel rotate faster at some points? Even if it will go faster would that increase of speed be constant or the more my friend adds up his mechanical energy the more magnetic repelling force
increase?

If my friends mechanical energy is more than what the magnets would provided from their force to stop the rotation of the wheel will he feel significant resistance? At what point could we manipulate magnetic fields to increase speed of that wheel?

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

So in general even if the magnets could add speed to a system it will eventually slow it down.

No, you're missing the point. Magnets can never add speed to a system. The closest you'll get is when you turn the wheel just past the point of maximum repulsion. Then, the repulsive force will give the wheel a "kick". But to GET the wheel to that point, you needed to provide MORE energy than (or at least as much energy as) you get from that kick.
So, if you reduced the friction greatly, and started the wheel from that critical position (using initial energy provided by you), it would rotate once, then stop (or probably "bounce" and turn slowly in the opposite direction), because it doesn't have enough energy to "get past" the critical position so that the repulsive force can provide another kick.
Adding more magnets seems like a possible way around this, but that's an illusion too. Each magnet suffers from the same problem as the first one.
If you could move the magnets around, you could avoid the problem... but it takes energy to move them around!
It's tempting to doubt the long-established and never disproved theory of conservation of energy, but if you think carefully and exhaustively about the situation seen by each magnet at each part of the rotation of the wheel, you will see that in all cases, there's no free lunch available.

 

[Moha99]

You all are thinking that I can get energy or electricity from "magnetic motors" or their generators that not what I'm looking at. I ask about energy for the sake of understanding what types of energy are found in that system only nothing more or less.

Now...

What Im asking is additional force from repelling magnets to increase an object rotational speed is that possibile?

I believe adding both polarities in a system would cause major resistance.
But for example adding a similar polarity magnets directed an position to the rotational direction maybe it could increase that object speed by the repelling forces.

*Keep in mind that rotation is mainly supported from mechanical energy of my friends hands pulling it not from the magnets.*

 

[Moha99]

No, you're missing the point. Magnets can never add speed to a system. The closest you'll get is when you turn the wheel just past the point of maximum repulsion. Then, the repulsive force will give the wheel a "kick". But to GET the wheel to that point, you needed to provide MORE energy than (or at least as much energy as) you get from that kick.
So, if you reduced the friction greatly, and started the wheel from that critical position (using initial energy provided by you), it would rotate once, then stop (or probably "bounce" and turn slowly in the opposite direction), because it doesn't have enough energy to "get past" the critical position so that the repulsive force can provide another kick.
Adding more magnets seems like a possible way around this, but that's an illusion too. Each magnet suffers from the same problem as the first one.
If you could move the magnets around, you could avoid the problem... but it takes energy to move them around!
It's tempting to doubt the long-established and never disproved theory of conservation of energy, but if you think carefully and exhaustively about the situation seen by each magnet at each part of the rotation of the wheel, you will see that in all cases, there's no free lunch available.

The energy provided to the rotational wheel from me is grater than the repulsive force of the magnets.

So that kick will constantly go on? If I'm rotating that wheel very very fast and constantly for a long time. What would many magnets on the wheel and many magnets off the wheel who have the same polarities do to the wheel? Stop it? how will it stop it if they want to move away from one another ?

Imagine a bike wheel with magnets all around it and added a ring outside the bike wheel and mounted countless magnets that oppose that wheels magnets polarity I started to rotate the wheel very very fast what is happening to the wheel? Slowing down or going fast or what?

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

Sure, you can use moving magnets, or stationary electromagnets, to make a wheel rotate. It's called a motor.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

The energy provided to the rotational wheel from me is grater than the repulsive force of the magnets.

Okay...

So that kick will constantly go on?

No.

If I'm rotating that wheel very very fast and constantly for a long time. What would many magnets on the wheel and many magnets off the wheel who have the same polarities do to the wheel? Stop it? how will it stop it if they want to move away from one another ?

In a perfect (frictionless) system, they will neither speed up the wheel, nor slow it down. The reason is simple: the repulsive force acts as much AGAINST the rotation of the wheel when the magnet on the wheel is APPROACHING the static magnet, as FOR the rotation of the wheel when the wheel has PASSED the static magnet.

 

[Moha99]

huh interesting. I blame this guy for motivating me to try the magnets and wheel thing looks kinda fun to play with

Although I don't understand a word his saying I'm more interested in what his previewing.

Now since Kris convinced me that that won't work I just dropped it.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

I don't want to seem like a wet blanket, but I'm trying to save you from wasting your time and being disappointed in the end, which is always how these experiments work out. Unless you get tricky and make misleading YouTube videos in the hope of getting "investors"... who you then have to feed lies to, if you want to maintain your revenue stream. It's all a bit sad really.

 

[Moha99]

I don't want to seem like a wet blanket, but I'm trying to save you from wasting your time and being disappointed in the end, which is always how these experiments work out. Unless you get tricky and make misleading YouTube videos in the hope of getting "investors"... who you then have to feed lies to, if you want to maintain your revenue stream. It's all a bit sad really.

hahaha no no my friend not at all...

I'm not interested in making this "magnetic" generator or motor what so ever.
Im more interested in making that wheel its kinda awesome!

All those people on youtube made false claims and intentions. And I had a discusion about this previously with members about these machines that make more energy than what they consume and reached to a understanding.

Logically if those machines would have worked and truly fulfilled their claims they would not be on youtube they'd be on their multi-million dollar homes enjoying their lives because those machines are really what people need BUT sadly our laws of physics does not allow it .

Anyways I got some Neodymium magnets laying around so I'll probably do what I had in mind and study more(I understand more and more when I see things in action!).

 

[(*steve*)]

The real problem is that people see a magnetic field as a form of energy. It's not.

Whilst it is true that you can use energy to create a field (a magnetic one in this case) it only requires energy to create the field, not to maintain it.

In some respects, a magnet is a device which energy has at some point been expended to create the field. If you remove that energy you will destroy the field (essentially the energy was expended liming up the magnetic domains).

But a magnetic field is something more akin to a stick.

You can use that stick's repulsive power (stiffness) to push things away, but the energy which gets transferred to the other object doesn't come from the stick, it comes from the person pushing it. It's possible to store some energy by compressing the stick, but you only get back the energy to put in.

If the stick has velcro on it then you can attract things (the analogy breaks down here). With 2 magnets, sure if you place them some distance apart N to S, they will pull themselves together. But you need to expend energy pulling them apart again. For a whole series of reasons you can show it takes more energy to pull them apart than to put them together.

I'd say that almost 100% of the magnet motors out there try to find some way to make the magnet keep repelling or keep attracting without external power.

If you look at a normal motor, they work because the magnetic field alternately pulls and pushes the motor around. But this is done by changing the fields generated by electromagnets. And as I said earlier, power is required to create these fields. In addition, we can use the field like a stick to push (or pull) stuff, but we are transmitting energy through the field (and that requires energy input).

 

[Moha99]

I'd say that almost 100% of the magnet motors out there try to find some way to make the magnet keep repelling or keep attracting without external power.

If you look at a normal motor, they work because the magnetic field alternately pulls and pushes the motor around. But this is done by changing the fields generated by electromagnets. And as I said earlier, power is required to create these fields. In addition, we can use the field like a stick to push (or pull) stuff, but we are transmitting energy through the field (and that requires energy input).

AHA! Got you there!

I said earlier in that wheel example where im rotating it with "EXTERNAL ENERGY" using what every source I apply!

So Steve what you said is "find some way to make the magnet keep repelling or keep attracting without external power." What happens if there is a external energy? Would that magnetic force still be available?

 

[Moha99]

A perfect animation of an induction motor that makes a lot of sense on how the motor works.

And a motor is a perfect example of what I'm looking for. Look at the rotor it moves but repelling poles correct? Now I understand what their trying to do! Make those poles stationary while having similar poled magnets on the roter and expect the to move with no energy perfectly understood. What ever there was an external energy as Steve says what would happen?

 

[(*steve*)]

What happens if there is a external energy?

Then the external energy is used (perhaps in conjunction with a permanent magnet's field, but the field itself supplies no energy).

 

[Moha99]

Then the external energy is used (perhaps in conjunction with a permanent magnet's field, but the field itself supplies no energy).

Understood the part that there is no energy, but will the field supply additional force?

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

Any pro-rotational force the static magnets supply at some part of the rotational cycle will be at least equalled by the counter-rotational force they supply at other parts of the rotational cycle. Force is not the same as energy. Adding magnets will never help the wheel to turn faster. Only adding energy can do that.

 

[Moha99]

Any pro-rotational force the static magnets supply at some part of the rotational cycle will be at least equalled by the counter-rotational force they supply at other parts of the rotational cycle. Force is not the same as energy. Adding magnets will never help the wheel to turn faster. Only adding energy can do that.

Thanks for that but I'm going to test this because I think force acts as that push in a system and it depends on many factors. Its defiantly not the "energy" its force I get that.

The cycle will be equaled to the counter rotational understood but that also depends on many factors as well.


But I have many things in the system I'll build and this magnetic "force" is useful to it I'll study more about this so what do you recommend me to look at?

Force and magnetic fields + forces is what I'll look at and I'll build the system soon.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

Thanks for that but I'm going to test this because I think force acts as that push in a system and it depends on many factors.

I see.

But I have many things in the system I'll build and this magnetic "force" is useful to it I'll study more about this so what do you recommend me to look at?

Physics textbooks, perhaps? Search Amazon for "magnet"? But be sure to avoid the ones that talk about magnetic healing and the power of crystals. Unfortunately, it's STILL not illegal to sell that sort of BS.

Force and magnetic fields + forces is what I'll look at and I'll build the system soon.

Well, I think you have elegantly answered the question that is the title of this thread.

 

[BobK]

This is just rephrasing what others have already said, but maybe you can imagine this, or even set up an experiment based on this.

Let's think of a wheel with one magnet on it's rim, N pole facing outwards. And a fixed magnet mounted just outside the diameter of the wheel with the N pole facing towarwd the wheel. When the wheel is rotating and the magnet on the wheel is just past the fixed magnet, a replusive force will speed up the wheel. But now think abouut what happens as the wheel has gone most of the way around and the magnet on the wheel is approaching the fixed magnet. They repel and it slows the wheel down. Set this up, and give the wheel a spin by hand. You will see the wheel slow down and then speed up again each time the two magets pass. But no energy is being transferred to the wheel in total, it is put is during one phase then the same amount taken out in the next phase.

The next thing the clever inventor thinks of is "what if I move the magnet away from the wheel as the magnet on the wheel approaches and put it back right after it passes?" Now we are transferring energy to the wheel and not taking as much energy out of the wheel, so it should go faster and faster! An he is correct, that is exactly what it will do! But each time you pull the magnet away or push it back it is resisting this movement and you are putting energy into the system by pushing against this force. Remember Work = force times distance.

Now imagine that the fixed magnet is actually an electromagnet. And you put a switch that is tripped on for a second just as the two magnts pass. Give the wheel a spin and watch it speed up, with the magnet turning on just in time to repel on each revolution of the wheel. Voila! You have just created the electric motor. And guess what? The electric power that you have to put into the magnet is the same as the power that goes into the wheel! Except that it is not. Some of it is lost as heat from the current flowing through the wires. And some of it is lost in friction in the wheel.

Bob

 

[timothy48342]

This is just rephrasing what others have already said, but maybe you can imagine this, or even set up an experiment based on this.

Let's think of a wheel with one magnet on it's rim, N pole facing outwards. And a fixed magnet mounted just outside the diameter of the wheel with the N pole facing towarwd the wheel. When the wheel is rotating and the magnet on the wheel is just past the fixed magnet, a replusive force will speed up the wheel. But now think abouut what happens as the wheel has gone most of the way around and the magnet on the wheel is approaching the fixed magnet. They repel and it slows the wheel down. Set this up, and give the wheel a spin by hand. You will see the wheel slow down and then speed up again each time the two magets pass. But no energy is being transferred to the wheel in total, it is put is during one phase then the same amount taken out in the next phase.

The next thing the clever inventor thinks of is "what if I move the magnet away from the wheel as the magnet on the wheel approaches and put it back right after it passes?" Now we are transferring energy to the wheel and not taking as much energy out of the wheel, so it should go faster and faster! An he is correct, that is exactly what it will do! But each time you pull the magnet away or push it back it is resisting this movement and you are putting energy into the system by pushing against this force. Remember Work = force times distance.

Now imagine that the fixed magnet is actually an electromagnet. And you put a switch that is tripped on for a second just as the two magnts pass. Give the wheel a spin and watch it speed up, with the magnet turning on just in time to repel on each revolution of the wheel. Voila! You have just created the electric motor. And guess what? The electric power that you have to put into the magnet is the same as the power that goes into the wheel! Except that it is not. Some of it is lost as heat from the current flowing through the wires. And some of it is lost in friction in the wheel.

Bob

Very nice, Bob! Excelent explaination. If this was faceBook, I would "like" it. (And I never ever "like" anything on FaceBook.)
-t