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What value of resistors do I need and a sanity check

Thanks

Thank you so much Dave this website along with its members has proven itself truly helpful. If I run into any other problems I'll notify.

I will give you insight into why this project is being done and will become popular.

Study's have shown that one can increase their own learning capabilities when correctly using tDCs.
http://brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/tdcs

I look forward to using this website in the future.:)

Fernando
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Study's have shown that one can increase their own learning capabilities when correctly using tDCs.
http://brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/tdcs
I had a quick look at that page. The spelling and grammar are awful. Admittedly it's written by a non-English speaker but that level of carelessness does not inspire confidence - not that I had much confidence in this TCDS stuff to start with! Perhaps I'm just being cynical. I would also discount any claims made in conjunction with offers of equipment for sale. (I'm not sure whether this applies to that web site.)

I would be interested to see the reports from any studies on "trans-cranial direct stimulation" that have been peer reviewed and/or published in recognised scientific journals.
 
I agree with you on the English.

The idea to do this project first came to me when i watched "Through the Wormhole" Season 3 episode 8. currently only a couple of universities are working on this however the universities can hold their reputation.

skip to 38:00 and watch tDCs at work
link to the vid:
 
This was the show that gave me the idea also.I also found another schematic.t I am redrawing it to place here to get some ideas as well I want to incorporate my switching into it.
 
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Is this circuit more reliable forgetting my potentiometer and the extra LEDS would this solve any of the issues mentioned previously.

simple2.jpg


This one had advantages as it was made in a housing that was portable. If it is then I can try and add my stuff with the improved design you guys showed me.

Here is some information that came along with the above schematic.

The PNP transistor is the current controller and has current gain (beta) of at least 100 and a Vce Voltage rating of 40V. The high beta assures good current regulation and the 40 V Vce rating allows me to use up to 4 ea. 9V batteries for driving into higher impedance loads (this will be needed possibly if I will try soles of the feet to the top of the head)


LED1 (red) serves a dual purpose. First this LED lets me know that the unit is “on”; second it will dim and go off if the current setting is ~ 0.30ma or above and the electrodes are not making good contact; the final and most important function is providing a constant voltage reference for the transistor.


LED2 (green) serves to provide a visible measure of the output current, Iout. LED2 begins to glow dimly at about 0.5ma out, has a nice soft glow at 1.0ma Iout, and a bright green light at 4ma.


Vref (0.920V see below) divided by the total resistance of R1 (fixed 220 Ohm) plus R2 (variable 0 to 5000 Ohms) determine the delivered current level


Current regulation: Vref / (R1 + R2) = Iout where Iout is the delivered tDCS current. Vref is equal to the voltage drop across the LED1 less the voltage drop across Base to Emitter of the transistor. Vref at 1ma Iout is 920mv; Vref for 0.170ma Iout is 1010 mv. For any given Iout setting the value of Iout is constant over a wide range of electrode to electrode resistance levels. With Vbatt of 9V DC the DC current delivered is constant at any setpoint with electrode to electrode resistance up to about 6000 ohms. With my current configurartion (back of the head hair-line to either F3 or F4) the electrode to electrode resistance (my head) is about 830 Ohms.

again this is all still new so I am asking for some help digesting all of this
 
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KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Is this circuit more reliable forgetting my potentiometer and the extra LEDS would this solve any of the issues mentioned previously.
Yes, that circuit is good, and the description is thorough.
[...] the 40 V Vce rating allows me to use up to 4 ea. 9V batteries for driving into higher impedance loads (this will be needed possibly if I will try soles of the feet to the top of the head)
Oh dear, I was hoping you weren't going to do that. I really recommend you try all your options for improving electrode contact before you start to increase the maximum voltage the circuit will deliver.
LED1 (red) serves a dual purpose. First this LED lets me know that the unit is “on”; second it will dim and go off if the current setting is ~ 0.30ma or above and the electrodes are not making good contact; the final and most important function is providing a constant voltage reference for the transistor.
That's a cute idea; I've seen it before somewhere.

Is that base-to-ground resistor 43 kilohms? That's very high. That gives an LED current of less than 0.2 mA which won't be very visible, even with a high-efficiency LED.

The designer will have been aiming to reduce the unit's standby current when the circuit is powered but the electrodes aren't connected, and chose a low current, but just be aware that the LED will be pretty dim.

I would use a high-efficiency LED - they're clearly visible at 1 mA and even less, and probably increase the LED current by reducing that base resistor.

Even if you don't mess around with the base reference voltage, you should set the maximum current accurately, using a DC milliammeter across the output. The 220 ohm resistor sets the maximum current; I would use a 500 ohm trimpot, and adjust it for 2.5 mA (or whatever limit you choose) when the control potentiometer is at maximum. If that results in the trimpot wiper being more than 2/3 towards the maximum current end, use a smaller value trimpot, or a smaller value trimpot in series with a fixed resistor, so you're always using the part of the trimpot range that gives you the finest control.

I would also check the accuracy at the lowest and highest operating temperatures, just to make sure it doesn't vary too much.

Of course you can still use the rotary switch to switch in fixed resistors and/or trimpots and/or a potentiometer into the position of the potentiometer in the design, and use a second pole to drive the LEDs.
 
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Wow you guys are good at this.

Ill just kick back and wait for the final schematic. Although we must remember that if Amp. is above 2mA a brain lesion (hole in your brain) could occur, but for now I am going to try the to make the 2 pole 5 way previous circuit.
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Are you waiting for one of us to draw it up? Dave, do you want to do it? Otherwise I will.

BTW here are some high-efficiency/low-current red LEDs rated for usable operation at 1 mA that will be suitable for the "RED LED" position.

#1: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HLMP-K150/516-1311-ND/637575 - HLMP-K150 Avago red 2mcd 1mA 60deg diffused/tinted 3mm USD 0.50

#2: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HLMP-K155/516-1312-ND/637576
HLMP-K155 Avago red 3mcd 1mA 45deg clear 3mm USD0.60

#3: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HLMP-D150/516-1323-ND/637587
HLMP-D150 Avago red 3mcd 1mA 65deg tinted/diffused 5mm USD0.50

#4: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HLMP-D155/516-1338-ND/637602
HLMP-D155 Avago red 10mcd 1mA 24deg clear 5mm USD 0.60

#5: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HLMPD150A/1080-1064-ND/2675555
HLMPD150A Everlightred 3mcd 1mA 60deg diffused 5mm USD 0.46

#6: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HLMPK150/1080-1067-ND/2675558
HLMPK150 Everlight 2mcd 1mA 60deg diffused 3mm USD 0.42

These LEDs are all available ex stock from Digikey at one-off quantities. The "mcd" figures are brightness in millicandelas. "60deg", "75deg" etc are the viewing angle; a narrower viewing angle means the LED is more directional. Diffused etc refers to the lens type. Two sizes are available - 3 mm and 5 mm diameter. I recommend diffused lens, and 5 mm unless you're really short on space. That means item #3 above. Item #4 is brighter but more directional.

For the "GREEN LED" position you should use a low-current LED as well, but all the 1 mA ones I found on Digikey are red.
 

davenn

Moderator
The 220 ohm resistor sets the maximum current; I would use a 500 ohm trimpot, and adjust it for 2.5 mA (or whatever limit you choose) when the control potentiometer is at maximum

Agreed, and I would make it a 10 turn pot for good fine adjustment

Kris was waiting for a response from your Q's before doing any cct schem adjustments lol

Dave
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Agreed, and I would make it a 10 turn pot for good fine adjustment. Kris was waiting for a response from your Q's before doing any cct schem adjustments lol
I have a few ideas for safety improvements too. I'll have a schematic up in a few days. I'm planning to base my design on your new circuit using the PNP current source, and use the rotary switch ideas from your newest version of the LM334Z-based circuit. Also I want to add a zener across the LED because LEDs often connect with wires and/or connectors that can be broken so disconnection is possible, and that will change the current regulator transistor so it can pass as much current as the base current (which is roughly VCC divided by the LED supply resistor) multiplied by the transistor's current gain. So putting a "back-up" zener across the LED where it can't be disconnected would be a safety bonus I think.

Again I am concerned that by making any suggestions at all, considering that I now know the intended application of this circuit, I may be putting myself in legal jeopardy if anything was to go wrong. I will think about this problem of wanting to help but not wanting to regret it!
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Here is my suggsted schematic.

attachment.php


It is based on a single transistor current source using a switchable current setting resistor in the emitter path.

SW2 is a two-pole five-position rotary switch. The "A" pole enables one of five LEDs (LEDR, LEDS, LEDT, LEDU and LEDV) which indicate the current output setting - either 0.5 mA, 1.0 mA, 1.5 mA, 2.0 mA, or adjustable (via RV). These LEDs are 3 mm red low-current devices, operated at slightly over 1 mA forward current (set by RL).

Q1 is used as a current regulator. A fixed voltage is generated between its base and the positive supply rail via LEDC, a 5 mm low-current red LED operated at a forward current of 1 mA (set by RB). Q1 tries to keep its emitter voltage equal to its base voltage plus one Vbe voltage drop, by providing current at its collector.

If there is a path for current from Q1's collector to the negative rail, this emitter-to-collector current flow causes the necessary voltage to appear across the resistors in Q1's emitter circuit. The emitter-collector current is then equal to the total voltage across the emitter resistors divided by their value (I = V / R). If sufficient current will flow in the collector circuit, regulation is achieved. In this state, Q1's base current is negligible.

If insufficient current flows in the collector circuit (e.g. because the load is open-circuit or has a high resistance), Q1's base will draw current, leaving insufficient voltage for LEDC. So LEDC will go out when the load is disconnected or high-resistance. This should be regarded as a warning that the load is not properly connected.

Current regulation is determined mainly by the characteristics of LEDC and Q1 and these characteristics are affected by temperature. When the circuit has been set up, you should measure its output current over a range of operating temperatures to be sure that it is stable enough for your application.

Safety considerations during construction: (1) protect and insulate the connection between Q1 emitter and RX (this is an important node in the circuit, and must not be allowed to touch any other part of the circuit); (b) ensure that the path to Q1 base is wired such that DZ cannot become disconnected from Q1 base without RB also being disconnected; i.e. connect from RB, via LEDC and DZ (either order), and finally to Q1 base. Also ensure that DZ's cathode cannot become disconnected from the positive supply rail.

DZ is connected across LEDC to limit Q1's base bias if LEDC becomes broken or disconnected, to prevent excessive output current. DR protects Q1 against connection to some types of inappropriate loads. F1 is a tiny 5 mA fuse intended as a simple safety precaution in case the current regulator fails in some way (for example, Q1 is damaged).

All components are available from Digikey.

The values of all resistors and trimpots in the Q1 emitter circuit should be taken as estimates; proper values will need to be determined during testing.

The battery voltage can be increased as long it remains safely within Q1's maximum Vce specification and RL and RB are changed accordingly. RB sets the current in LEDC which should be about 1 mA, so RB can be calculated as (VBatt - 2V) * 1000 with the result being in ohms. So for example if the battery voltage was 24V then RB would be 22 kilohms. RL similarly sets the current in the five mode indicator LEDs and can be chosen to trade off brightness against battery lifespan.

Here is the procedure for determining the resistor and trimpot values in the emitter circuit. You will temporarily need several ten-turn trimpots, connected to two alligator clips. Values of 100R, 200R and possibly higher may be needed.

1. Determine RX and RM. These set the maximum output current, which corresponds to VAR mode with RV fully clockwise.

Connect a milliammeter between the negative side of M1 and the circuit 0V rail. Leave the RX position open. Clip a 100R ten-turn trimpot between Q1 emitter and the positive supply rail (anodes of the LEDs) and set it to maximum resistance. Turn on the circuit and adjust the trimpot to get your desired maximum current flow.

Power off and remove the trimpot, and measure its resistance. You now need to recreate that resistance using a fixed resistor in series with a trimpot. Multiply the measured resistance by 0.93 and find the closest E24 resistor value less than that. This will be RX. Now subtract that value from the measured resistance, multiply the result by 1.3 and find the closest available trimpot value that is higher than the number you calculated. This is RM.

Install RX and RM, power up the circuit and adjust RM for the desired maximum output current with SW2 set to "VAR" and RV fully clockwise.

2. Determine the resistor and trimpot values for the four fixed currents.

Disconnect RM from the SW2B wiper. Connect a ten-turn trimpot (start with 100R and use a higher value if the current won't go low enough) from the free end of RM to the positive supply rail.

For each of the four fixed current options, starting with the highest current option, turn on the circuit and adjust the trimpot for the desired current, turn off, disconnect the trimpot and measure it, and recreate that resistance using a fixed resistor and a series trimpot using the calculations given in step 1.

Install the calculated resistors and trimpots into the four emitter circuits. Turn on the circuit, and for each position on SW2, adjust the related trimpot to get the desired current flow.

For safety reasons you must follow these guidelines.

While it is being used, this circuit must be kept electrically isolated from the mains and all other electical circuitry. This circuit must be constructed in a non-conductive box. This circuit must not be powered from an AC adapter. This circuit must be powered from batteries only. If rechargeable batteries are used they must be removed for external recharging. A charger input must not be added to this circuit.

Disclaimer: I cannot warrant that this design, or its construction (which I cannot control), will meet mandated safety standards for electronic devices for connection to the human body. Unless you have had this design, and your construction of it, tested and approved by the relevant safety agencies, any such application of this circuit is made entirely at your own risk and I disclaim all liability for all intended and unintended effects it may have on that person.
 

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Kris you just blew my mind. I praise your genius!

Well I am going to finish my current project, and then this is definitely something I am going to try.

I appreciate what you have done thank you so much.
 

CDRIVE

Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3
I fully expect all of you that are passing electric current through your brain, with hopes of increasing brain power, to be Gurus here in one month. OK,... two months then. :rolleyes:
 
Thank you

That is absolutely amazing I thank you very much I will get it and see about how I can begin building it. I have no idea what time frame but this is a great start and an excellent description. Thanks again
What impact would going down to a nine volt source involve? I was thinking about the container and making the 9v source easy to incorporate, small package size vs groupoing batteries together to make twelve volts etc.

That was one feature I really liked about the second schematic I put up

I apologize for the request and if it is a major thing I can always build in a battery pack
 
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KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
You can use a 9V battery if you reduce RB and RL. This will reduce the maximum voltage available from the circuit. This graph shows the effect of changing the battery voltage.

attachment.php



This graph shows the electrode current on the vertical axis, and the "load resistance" (i.e. the resistance of the section of the person that is connected between the electrodes) on the horizontal axis. Three different battery voltages are shown.

Biological material does not behave like an ideal resistor, but as long as current is low enough to avoid damage, a resistor is a useful approximation.

The left hand side of the graph shows normal operation, with the current regulator regulating normally, holding the current to the specified value. This occurs when the load resistance is relatively low. This is when there is a GOOD connection - large electrodes, firm pressure, moisture present, salt or "electrode cream" present.

The right side of the graph shows what happens when the load resistance becomes too high - the current tapers off. When this happens, the 5mm red LED in the regulator will go dim or go out altogether.

The reason that the circuit can't deliver its set current into a higher resistance is that this requires more voltage. Ohm's Law says that I = V / R (where I is current in amps, V is voltage and R is resistance in ohms). This can be rearranged to V = I R. To cause 2.5 mA to flow through a resistance of 2000 ohms, say, requires an applied voltage of 5V which is no problem for a circuit running from 9V. But if the resistance is 5000 ohms, say, the circuit needs to provide 12.5V in order to cause the desired 2.5 mA current to flow, so the circuit must be powered from at least 14V (the circuit adds a "dropout" voltage of about 1.5V).

I've plotted the curves for three different battery voltages - 9V (red), 12V (blue) and 18V (green), so you can see how the battery voltage affects the circuit's ability to deliver the desired current into higher load resistances.

You can also see that for any given load resistance, lower currents require less voltage. It's only the combination of a high current setting and a high load resistance that prevents the circuit from delivering the desired current when powered from a lower supply voltage.

If you find that the current regulator drops out of regulation (the LED dims or goes out) during normal operation, before increasing the battery voltage I would try to reduce the load resistance.

This resistance can be reduced by (a) using larger electrodes, (b) using more pressure on the electrodes, (c) making the skin wet, (d) using salt or "electrode cream", (e) bringing the electrodes closer together, and probably in other ways too. These all improve the electrical contact, which reduces the resistance.
 

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kris is the 5 R100's (RR-RU) in your schematic potentiometers? If so can you give me more information of their properties.

thank you
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Yes, they're preset potentiometers, also called trimpots. You could use ten-turn ones but I don't think it's necessary.

The values I've specified for ALL of the components in the emitter path are ESTIMATES. You need to select the right values during testing. If you can afford it, you should get several resistors and trimpots of every available value from 20 ohms to say 200 ohms.
 
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