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Voltage stability in old truck

J

Jack

Hi.
Looking for info on a simple technique of protecting a small (solid state)
radio from supply voltage spikes.
I have an old classic truck with 6 volt (neg ground) electrics. The old
tube radio is now toast ..well, too expensive to fix: power transformer
appears shot.
I want to sub the guts of a more modern trans radio into it and that radio
also runs on 6 volts (4 c cells). However, I am a tad leary of destroying
the new radio by the voltage spikes that the generator will produce during
charging: up to 8.5 volts. I need something to smooth out the voltage.
I was thinking of using an LM317 to regulate the radio but I suspect it
won't work properly as the supply will vary from 5.8-8.5 volts. So, I was
also intrigued with the idea of using a zener but not sure how to go about
that.
The radio appears to draw a max of 100 ma @ 6 vdc.

Any (simple) ideas are appreciated.

Jack
 
Hi.
Looking for info on a simple technique of protecting a small (solid state)
radio from supply voltage spikes.
I have an old classic truck with 6 volt (neg ground) electrics. The old
tube radio is now toast ..well, too expensive to fix: power transformer
appears shot.
I want to sub the guts of a more modern trans radio into it and that radio
also runs on 6 volts (4 c cells). However, I am a tad leary of destroying
the new radio by the voltage spikes that the generator will produce during
charging: up to 8.5 volts. I need something to smooth out the voltage.
I was thinking of using an LM317 to regulate the radio but I suspect it
won't work properly as the supply will vary from 5.8-8.5 volts. So, I was
also intrigued with the idea of using a zener but not sure how to go about
that.
The radio appears to draw a max of 100 ma @ 6 vdc.

Any (simple) ideas are appreciated.

Jack


In reality, 4C cells put out less than 6 volts for most of their life.
Probably more like 5 volts. I would just use a LM7806 (6-volt) or
LM7805 (5-volt) fixed regulator. The three pin TO-220 version is rated
at 1-amp and mounted to the case of the radio would work well. Plus
it's dirt simple to hookup. One pin to supply, one pin to ground
(usually connected to the case of the regulator), and the third to the
radio. I would probably add a choke in seris and capacitor in
parallel in front to help filter out electrical noise.

BTW, those 'fancy' adapters to run 6-volt accessories and guages in a
12-volt car are nothing more than 7806 regulators.

-Chris
 
J

jakdedert

Jack said:
Hi.
Looking for info on a simple technique of protecting a small (solid
state) radio from supply voltage spikes.
I have an old classic truck with 6 volt (neg ground) electrics. The
old tube radio is now toast ..well, too expensive to fix: power
transformer appears shot.
I want to sub the guts of a more modern trans radio into it and that
radio also runs on 6 volts (4 c cells). However, I am a tad leary of
destroying the new radio by the voltage spikes that the generator
will produce during charging: up to 8.5 volts. I need something to
smooth out the voltage.
I was thinking of using an LM317 to regulate the radio but I suspect
it won't work properly as the supply will vary from 5.8-8.5 volts.
So, I was also intrigued with the idea of using a zener but not sure
how to go about that.
The radio appears to draw a max of 100 ma @ 6 vdc.

Any (simple) ideas are appreciated.

There's a guy by the name of Gary Tayman (Tayman Electrics) who 'guts' old
original auto radios and rebuilds them with modern electronics. When he's
done, you can't tell the difference until you turn it on...beautiful work.
All the original controls (even push-button tuning...even
motorized--'Wonderbar'--tuning) are still functional. He even installs
high-powered stereo amplifiers if desired, with inputs for tape or CD
sources. AM radios are converted to AM/FM stereo, and controls for
concealed CD changer can be included.

It's not cheap, but it 'is' simple.

<http://www.gate.net/~gtayman/stereo.htm>

jak
 
J

Jack

I know of Gary's stuff. However, I've sunk in too much $$ into the old
tuber to effect repairs. So now to turn around and buy an expensive
(commercially made) retrofit is not in the cards as the truck is way past
original. So having a functioning tuber radio is not that important to me.
The truck's a daily driver.

How about a simple electonic solution (that I can make) to boost the 6vdc
supply to 12vdc so I can sub a newer dash deck (only) in place of the old
tuber?

Jack
 
J

jakdedert

Jack said:
I know of Gary's stuff. However, I've sunk in too much $$ into the
old tuber to effect repairs. So now to turn around and buy an
expensive (commercially made) retrofit is not in the cards as the
truck is way past original. So having a functioning tuber radio is
not that important to me. The truck's a daily driver.

How about a simple electonic solution (that I can make) to boost the
6vdc supply to 12vdc so I can sub a newer dash deck (only) in place
of the old tuber?

They used to be fairly common when manufacturers were switching to 12v
systems. I remember when I sold car stereo back in the 70's that they were
still around--a box which would either convert 6v to 12v, or convert 12v
positive ground to negative. They must still be out there somewhere. Try
J.C. Whitney or some other classic car enthusiast catalog.

Otherwise, it's a fairly simple multivibrator circuit to convert the 6v d.c.
to a.c., then step it up to 18v or therabouts and then
rectify/filter/regulate it to clean 12v d.c. I've never seen a schematic,
but someone on this group might be able to help.

Converting the trucks electrical system to 12v would give you some benefits
beyond the easy addition of modern gadgets, as well....

jak
 
J

James Sweet

Jack said:
Hi.
Looking for info on a simple technique of protecting a small (solid state)
radio from supply voltage spikes.
I have an old classic truck with 6 volt (neg ground) electrics. The old
tube radio is now toast ..well, too expensive to fix: power transformer
appears shot.
I want to sub the guts of a more modern trans radio into it and that radio
also runs on 6 volts (4 c cells). However, I am a tad leary of destroying
the new radio by the voltage spikes that the generator will produce during
charging: up to 8.5 volts. I need something to smooth out the voltage.
I was thinking of using an LM317 to regulate the radio but I suspect it
won't work properly as the supply will vary from 5.8-8.5 volts. So, I was
also intrigued with the idea of using a zener but not sure how to go about
that.
The radio appears to draw a max of 100 ma @ 6 vdc.

Any (simple) ideas are appreciated.

Jack

You're on the right track, what you need is a low dropout 6v voltage
regulator, actually chances are the more common 5V variety will work just
fine. Of course only drawing 100mA you could probably get away with a simple
zener diode and resistor regulator.
 
J

Jack

Hmm..

I am leaning toward using a zener as the voltage drop may be too significant
when dealing with a VR. As I understand it, a zener will have little or no
voltage drop when used in its reverse configuration to its indexed value, in
this case around 5 volts (5.1 actually).

However, I am at a loss as to calculating the limiting resistance when the
supply voltage can be anywhere from 5.5 volts (battery discharge) to 8 volts
max (charging).
ie: at 8 volts, .05 amps (25% of max current of .2 amps) and using Ohm's Law
I figure a value of 30 ohms (25% of the _max_ current needed to trigger the
zener) ..and 1/2 watt. But that's using a fixed supply voltage.
What about variable voltages? What applies here?

Jack
 
I

Ian

Hmm..

I am leaning toward using a zener as the voltage drop may be too significant
when dealing with a VR. As I understand it, a zener will have little or no
voltage drop when used in its reverse configuration to its indexed value, in
this case around 5 volts (5.1 actually).

However, I am at a loss as to calculating the limiting resistance when the
supply voltage can be anywhere from 5.5 volts (battery discharge) to 8 volts
max (charging).
ie: at 8 volts, .05 amps (25% of max current of .2 amps) and using Ohm's Law
I figure a value of 30 ohms (25% of the _max_ current needed to trigger the
zener) ..and 1/2 watt. But that's using a fixed supply voltage.
What about variable voltages? What applies here?

Jack



"Jam

I doubt you will find a simple shunt zener type regulator suitable as
putting the figures into the equations will come up with impossible device
requirments

anyhow this is how I calculate it

determine the minimum voltage the radio will work on. V
determine the minimum voltage available from the source E
determine the maximum current draw from device I
series resistor R= (E-V)/I
determine minimum current draw from device (most probally Zero for radio)
determin maximum source voltage EM
determin maximum device voltage VM (or zener voltage)
zener current rating = (Em-Vm)/R

So if your truck is 8.0 v to 5.8 volts
and you choose a 5.1 v zener and need 0-200ma
3.5 ohm resistor and zener rated at 830Ma
the 2.5 W resistor may not be a probem but the 4 W zener might be


You would need a
 
F

Fred McKenzie

<< So, I was
also intrigued with the idea of using a zener but not sure how to go about
that.
The radio appears to draw a max of 100 ma @ 6 vdc. >>

Jack-

As Chris pointed out, the radio should still function when the four C cells are
down to about 5 volts. Since fresh C cells are about 1.55V, I would go for a
6.2 volt zener diode. Remember, it is acting as a limiter rather than an
absolute regulator.

Series resistance is chosen for (5.8V - 5V)/0.1A = 8 Ohms. Maximum current in
the resistor occurs with input of 8.5V, I = (8.5-6.2)/8 = 0.2875A. Maximum
power is P = ((8.5-6.2)^2)/8 = 0.66125W. I would choose an 8.2 Ohm 2 watt
minimum resistor, preferably wire-wound rather than carbon. (Carbon has poor
aging characteristics.)

Zener power is maximum when the radio is off. P = 6.2V * 0.2875A = 1.7825W. I
would look for a three to five watt 6.2 volt zener diode with wire leads. If
you want to heat-sink it, I believe there is a ten watt stud-mounted "R"
(anode-to-stud) diode available if you search for it. Otherwise you would have
to insulate the stud of the standard cathode-to-stud configuration.

Fred
 
J

Jack

After using a 9 volt battery connected to an LM317 VR circuit I made up long
ago, I played with the radio to see the minimum voltage it would work at.
It will play down at 4.75 volts but of course not very well. Plays better
the more it's increased. And everything starts to jell at about 5.5 volts
...with very little further improvement from 5.5 through to about 6.25.
Didn't want to risk increasing it any further.

So.. with the above info in mind, I also thought I would try my hand at it
with using simple Ohm's Law stuff.
(But again, this does not take into account the variabilities of voltage
produced by the truck's system: 5.5 at discharge and 8+ at charging, and
that was my quandary)

So given a stable input voltage of 8.5, I also used a 6 volt zener rather
than a 5 volt one as it is only for reference, not regulation. But, I also
surmised that only 25% of the required amperage would be needed to trigger
the zener to full throttle:

Using a 1 watt 6.2 zener:
I=P/E
I=1/5.0
I=.16 amps

...and at 25% reference current (enough just to trigger the zener) - voltage
here is difference between, high of 8.5 minus low of 5 = 3.0 :
R=E/I
R=3.5/.04 (25% of .16)
R=87.5 ohms

...and the power dissipation for the resistor:
P=3.5^2/87.5
P=12.250/87.5
P=.14 watts

So, I could use a 1/2 watt limiting resistor of 87.5 ohms.
Hmm. This is quite different from your calcs.
I am confused here, Fred. My first query is how you arrived at 8 ohms to
begin with?

Jack

***
 
G

gothika

You should be running your dashboard off the battery, not straight off
the charging circuit.
At the very least your voltage regulator should be smoothing out any
voltage you pull fromt he charging circuit to run the radio or
dashboard fixtures.
And you could of course easily convert that 6 volt system over to 12.
 
O

Ol' Duffer

How about a simple electonic solution (that I can make) to boost the 6vdc
supply to 12vdc so I can sub a newer dash deck (only) in place of the old
tuber?

1. A small 6-Volt rechargeable battery wired to a DPDT
switch, one position to put it in parallel with the
vehicle battery to charge when not playing the radio,
second position to put it in series when you want to
play the radio.

2. An electronic version of idea 1 sometimes known as
a "charge pump" can be built with capacitors and
switching devices as old as vibrators or as high-tech
as MOSFETs. This was the basis for most of the voltage
converters popular back in the 50s and 60s when the
changeover from 6 to 12 Volts happened. I've never
built one, but the concept is pretty simple, and there
should be plans floating around somewhere.

3. National Semiconductor (and others) make easy-to-use
integrated circuit voltage converters known as "simple
switchers" that will give an ampere or more of output,
depending on the step-up, with only a handful of parts,
and published a free software package that will
calculate component values for you. Almost turnkey
if you can solder a few parts together on a perfboard.
 
J

Jack

My mistake in not clarifying it. It is run via the battery, as all the
accessories are. But my main concern was with the voltage spike eminating
from the generator charging circuit at which point the battery's voltage
will peak at 8+ volts (and down to around 5.5 volts when discharged). I
need to take those swings into consideration when calculating the limiting
resistor into either a VR or Zener circuit. And no, I really don't want to
convert the entire truck's electrics over to 12 volts at this time. The
purpose of this exercise was to give me back some tunes while driving, and
having an old (20?) "12 transistor" radio kicking around the shop I thought
I'd adapt it -- being a 6 volt radio -- and mout it in an out-of-the way
place in the cab. I figured that job should be pretty simple..

Jack
 
J

James Sweet

gothika said:
You should be running your dashboard off the battery, not straight off
the charging circuit.
At the very least your voltage regulator should be smoothing out any
voltage you pull fromt he charging circuit to run the radio or
dashboard fixtures.
And you could of course easily convert that 6 volt system over to 12.

The battery is connected straight to the charging circuit so running off the
battery is running off the charging circuit. Voltage regulators, especially
old electromechanical regulators are not remotely precision devices, the
output has all kinds of spikes and dips and the RMS voltage charging a lead
acid battery is significantly higher than the rated output of the battery.
 
G

gothika

The battery is connected straight to the charging circuit so running off the
battery is running off the charging circuit. Voltage regulators, especially
old electromechanical regulators are not remotely precision devices, the
output has all kinds of spikes and dips and the RMS voltage charging a lead
acid battery is significantly higher than the rated output of the battery.
You replace the old regulator with a new solid state regulator.
I've restored alot of antique autos in my time, alot.
That's one of the first things you do is strip out the old wiring
harness and components and upgrade to a 12v system, ALWAYS.
Yes I know about the charging rates, in 12v systems the charge rate at
2,500 rpms is usually in the range of 13.4 to 15v.
In older 6v systems it could vary from 6.9v to as high as 9v, all of
which was detrimental to the battery and ancillory electrical devices.
(The main reason the industry switch to 12v systems, 6v batteries just
could not hold up under constant use and the variable charge rates as
well as being limited in the amount of loads from the ever increasing
number of system accessories that were being added to cars.)
All the orginal poster has to do is convert to 12v and his problems
would be solved.
There was a time when a solid state 6v regulator could be had, as well
as a decent 6v altenator. Those days are pretty much passed.
simply upgrade the harness, replace the generator with a 12v altenator
and 12v regulator and all lamps and lights with 12v.
Then you can install a 12v radio.
Going this route will give you much more to choose from in vintage
replacement radios.(there are services that restore and sell them,
Rare Parts Service comes to mind. RPS)
BTW if you take a look at the electrical design of virtually any auto
made in the past 30 years you'll see that the function of the
altenator is not to run the entire electrical system of the
engine/car, but to simply charge the battery.
Doubly so with those with computer systems/fuel injection etc....
The regulator and/or the onboard electronics "traps" the charge coming
from the altenator to prevent it use in the system.(this is to prevent
damage to the electronics and engine from using fluctuating voltage.
A real no-no when you have an onboard computer, fuel injection and
variable valve controls. They must have smooth, clean constant voltage
to perform properly.)
 
G

gothika

My mistake in not clarifying it. It is run via the battery, as all the
accessories are. But my main concern was with the voltage spike eminating
from the generator charging circuit at which point the battery's voltage
will peak at 8+ volts (and down to around 5.5 volts when discharged). I
need to take those swings into consideration when calculating the limiting
resistor into either a VR or Zener circuit. And no, I really don't want to
convert the entire truck's electrics over to 12 volts at this time. The
purpose of this exercise was to give me back some tunes while driving, and
having an old (20?) "12 transistor" radio kicking around the shop I thought
I'd adapt it -- being a 6 volt radio -- and mout it in an out-of-the way
place in the cab. I figured that job should be pretty simple..

Jack
You could try looking around for a 6v solid state regulator and using
that inline with the radio.
I've done alot of restoration of antique autos, but haven't seen a 6v
regulator since around '72.
I'll snoop through some of my old rare parts catalogs and see what I
can find.
 
J

James Sweet

gothika said:
You could try looking around for a 6v solid state regulator and using
that inline with the radio.
I've done alot of restoration of antique autos, but haven't seen a 6v
regulator since around '72.
I'll snoop through some of my old rare parts catalogs and see what I
can find.

Building one from scratch should be almost trivial, all you have to do is
monitor the voltage coming out and adjust the current to the field winding
accordingly. Most I believe use PWM these days.
 
O

Ol' Duffer

(The main reason the industry switch to 12v systems, 6v batteries just
could not hold up under constant use and the variable charge rates as
well as being limited in the amount of loads from the ever increasing
number of system accessories that were being added to cars.)

Actually, the underlying reason is that you need more
current to do the same amount of work at low voltage.
It was taking like 2 ga. wire for starter motors on
some of the larger engines, but at 12V you can do the
job with 4 or 6 ga. All the connectors had to be
beefier at 6V, corrosion and wire/connector resistance
were more problematic.

Copper wire being an expensive and [potentially] short
supply strategic material, the military bumped most of
their systems on up to 24/28 Volts.

And we may have not heard the last of it. There has
been talk of going to 42 Volts to power the increasing
demand of proliferating electronics in automotives.
It is unclear how this might be implemented, as this
is above what is normally considered "consumer safe"
low voltage. Check one of *those* with your tongue!
There was a time when a solid state 6v regulator could be
had, as well as a decent 6v altenator.

Check the rebuilders, like Jebco and Triodiode. You can
still get 6V regulators, reverse polarity diode packs, etc.
BTW if you take a look at the electrical design of virtually any auto
made in the past 30 years you'll see that the function of the
altenator is not to run the entire electrical system of the
engine/car, but to simply charge the battery.

Now here you are just dead wrong. Nearly all automotive
alternators since the early 70's are equipped with remote
sensing so that the alternator will maintain a nearly
constant voltage at some point other than the battery.
This is done both to reduce the amount of charge/discharge
cycling on the battery, thereby improving longevity, and
to minimize dimming of lights and similar problems that
would be associated with running from a battery in varying
states of charge. Turn something on, the alternator picks
it up right away. The only times significant current is
drawn from the battery is for starting, or at idle if you
have so much stuff turned on that the alternator won't
carry it all. Watch your ammeter if you don't believe me
(if you have one - ammeters are becoming extinct as modern
electronically regulated alternators do such a good job
you don't have to worry about it). The battery still acts
as a huge water dielectric capacitor to smooth alternator
ripple, but this is AC which has no net effect on charge
and is not hard on the battery.

There are one-wire alternators made for simpler electrical
systems, like tractors, where charging the starting battery
is about all it has to do. These are not well-suited for
automotive applications, but a lot of backyard mechanics
use them in error because they are easy to hook up without
having to understand how the electrical system works.
Performance varies from fair to poor. Don't even think
about using one of these with a high-power sound system,
you won't get good results. They are disappearing even
from agricultural use as more high-demand electronics
make inroads.
Doubly so with those with computer systems/fuel injection etc....
The regulator and/or the onboard electronics "traps" the charge coming
from the altenator to prevent it use in the system.(this is to prevent
damage to the electronics and engine from using fluctuating voltage.

Smoke and mirrors and fuzzy thinking. Nothing in those
sentences solid enough even to poke at.
A real no-no when you have an onboard computer, fuel injection and
variable valve controls. They must have smooth, clean constant voltage
to perform properly.)

That's a bit misleading. Modern engine systems have
built-in filtering and regulation where needed. They
are well hardened against anything even a poor charging
system is likely to throw at them. They may perform a
little *better* with clean power, but it usually takes
some kind of major deficiency to bring them down, and
most of the time they don't even seem to care.
 
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