Utility companies charge for apparent power?

[blackhead]

I'm under the impression that utility companies charge for apparent
power rather than real, so that you would pay for the apparent power
used by an inductor.

Is this correct?

 

[Joel Koltner]

I'm under the impression that utility companies charge for apparent
power rather than real, so that you would pay for the apparent power
used by an inductor.

My understanding is that residental customers only pay for real power wheras
commercial customers -- who have a much more complicated rate structure in the
first place -- also pay for real power but are required to keep their power
factor within certain bounds or end up paying various surcharges. Hence the
large capacitor banks you see outside of mills and other heavy motor users,
with their capacitance offsetting the inductance of all the motors.

 

[Charles]

I'm under the impression that utility companies charge for apparent
power rather than real, so that you would pay for the apparent power
used by an inductor.

Is this correct?

Commercial customers often pay more (per kWh) for a poor power factor. I
have never seen this adjusted rate applied to individual consumers.

 

[John Popelish]

I'm under the impression that utility companies charge for apparent
power rather than real, so that you would pay for the apparent power
used by an inductor.

Is this correct?

In my experience (East coast of the U.S.) no one is charged
directly for apparent power. Households pay for only actual
energy (kilowatt hours) because that is all their meter
responds to. Industrial customers often pay a power factor
adder and it is metered separately from real power.
Contracts are often individually negotiated.

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

I'm under the impression that utility companies charge for apparent
power rather than real, so that you would pay for the apparent power
used by an inductor.

Is this correct?

Apparently so.

It depends on what kind of customer you are. Residential customers
usually don't pay for the reactive power component. Commercial and
industrial customers usually do.

Its actually not a bad idea. A significant part of the power companies
capital cost is invested in delivering apparent power to its customers.
Why not charge them for it?

 

[mpm]

I'm under the impression that utility companies charge for apparent
power rather than real, so that you would pay for the apparent power
used by an inductor.

Is this correct?

Everyone pays to some extent.
It's built into the operating cost and profit margins of the local
utility.

Commercial customers often have a different rate for service.
This rate can include power factor, as well as demand loading.
(Power is often more expensive to deliver during peak hours, for
example.)

In response, power-hungry entities such as high power UHF TV stations
often use something like this: (very cool to see in action!)

http://www.hipotronics.com/redirect/pwrprod.htm
(Follow link to the Peschel Variable Xfmr)

-mpm

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Everyone pays to some extent.
It's built into the operating cost and profit margins of the local
utility.

Commercial customers often have a different rate for service.
This rate can include power factor, as well as demand loading.
(Power is often more expensive to deliver during peak hours, for
example.)

In response, power-hungry entities such as high power UHF TV stations
often use something like this: (very cool to see in action!)

http://www.hipotronics.com/redirect/pwrprod.htm
(Follow link to the Peschel Variable Xfmr)

That doesn't do anything about peak power rates. It may be helpful if
the utilities voltage regulation doesn't meet the load requirements, but
the instantaneous power consumption will remain the same.

 

[mpm]

That doesn't do anything about peak power rates. It may be helpful if
the utilities voltage regulation doesn't meet the load requirements, but
the instantaneous power consumption will remain the same.

Agreed. Typically, (almost without exception, actually), they are 3-
ph high-voltage supplies, and they are often unbalanced. I did not
mean to imply variable transformers could affect demand meter
readings..... (Could have worded that better in retrospect.) -mpm

 

[T]

Apparently so.

It depends on what kind of customer you are. Residential customers
usually don't pay for the reactive power component. Commercial and
industrial customers usually do.

Its actually not a bad idea. A significant part of the power companies
capital cost is invested in delivering apparent power to its customers.
Why not charge them for it?

Oh they do charge us for it! I have a residential account with National
Grid. Our per kWh charge is 8 cents, but then they add in all the
distribution charges and our per kWh rises to 14 cents a kWh.

Deregulation did nothing but make the companies richer. It never saved
the consumer any money.

That's why I want to see the regulatory clamps applied to power and
telecom companies again.

 

[Jim Thompson]

Oh they do charge us for it! I have a residential account with National
Grid. Our per kWh charge is 8 cents, but then they add in all the
distribution charges and our per kWh rises to 14 cents a kWh.

Deregulation did nothing but make the companies richer. It never saved
the consumer any money.

That's why I want to see the regulatory clamps applied to power and
telecom companies again.

You probably live in a blue state. Here in Arizona I just looked at
this month's bill... 5441 kWh @ 6.78¢/kWh INCLUDING everything:
service charge, delivery/distribution charges, fuel adjustments,
taxes, everything ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[Richard Henry]

You probably live in a blue state.  Here in Arizona I just looked at
this month's bill... 5441 kWh @ 6.78¢/kWh INCLUDING everything:
service charge, delivery/distribution charges, fuel adjustments,
taxes, everything ;-)

What point are you trying to make here? I thought that Arizona backed
away from its deregulation experiment after seeing what happened in
California and Texas, and that the a large component of Arizona
electrical power is from federal government hydro projects on the
Colorado River.

 

[Mike]

Oh they do charge us for it! I have a residential account with National
Grid. Our per kWh charge is 8 cents, but then they add in all the
distribution charges and our per kWh rises to 14 cents a kWh.

Deregulation did nothing but make the companies richer. It never saved
the consumer any money.

That's why I want to see the regulatory clamps applied to power and
telecom companies again.

Lots of the infrastructure in many developed economies worldwide for
power and to a lesser extent telecoms is coming to the end of its
usable life - varying between around 15 and 60 years depending on the
specific equipment types. Overhead lines, cables and transformers
are at the upper end of this asset life, switchgear somewhere above
the middle and control and protection equipment towards the lower end.

Deregulation usually sets a ceiling on the rate of return the network
operator can make from their very significant capital investment -
usually pegged for a multi year term at a level relative to a general
economy inflation figure. This rate of return *might* be above the
general inflation rate where it is recognised that very significant
under investment has taken place in the past but in many cases it can
be below the inflation figure in an effort to squeeze the network
operator for operational efficiencies in delivering capital projects.
A below inflation basis is very common in the UK where electricity,
gas, water and telecoms have been deregulated for between 18 years in
the case of electricity and 27 years in the case of telecoms.

So there is a choice (but it's now out of your hands) you either pay
the going rate where assets are replaced on a sustainable and
controlled basis or have it much cheaper now and have a failing and
increasingly unreliable service in the future.

Most of the cost increases you are seeing are nothing to do with the
network operator making more money but more to do with the cost of
generation rising significantly and a significant backlog of capital
asset replacement schemes finally getting underway.


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