Thoughts on AutoTRAX PCB layout software?

[billcalley]

Hi All,

I am thinking of buying AutoTRAX EDA (not the DOS Protel
version!). I have demo'ed virtually every low-cost schematic/layout
package* out there, and they all have certain issues -- some quite
major. And while I'm use to working with Protel and PADS (which have
issues too!), I cannot really afford those packages myself, but I was
wondering if anyone has any feelings about AutoTRAX EDA, either pro or
con, for professional board design. (I don't want to buy this package
and find that it FUBARD up a $2,000 test board -- and made me look
like a fool too!). The only major problem I found with this
incredibly fair priced software would normally be a real deal breaker,
which is it actually lets you delete nets and footprints in the PCB
section after you import your schematic Netlist!! And not only that,
it won't say anything about your deletion when you run the DRC! But I
figure that if I know about that truly bizarre issue, I can be on the
lookout for it.
Any thoughts on using AutoTRAX EDA for professional PCB design (so
far, to me, it seems to be the best of the low-cost packages...)?

Thanks!

-Bill

*Eagle, Easy-PC, DIPTrace, KICAD, CADint, PerformanceEDA, etc.

 

[Brad Velander]

Bill,
No comments on AutoTrax EDA but it seems that you are somewhat confused
in general about EDA packages.
Almost every EDA package will allow you to delete existing footprints
and connections in one form or another from your PCB design. Specifically
two of the ones mentioned, PADs and Protel/DXP/AD. And they will not
complain during the subsequent DRC check. The check for connection and part
completion is to utilize whatever ECO/check process to check against the
original schematic, ensuring that all the circuit and intended connections
are still there. Then the DRC checks the physical implementation of those
circuit nets and footprints for PCB design issues.
How can the PCB DRC check something that you have deleted?

 

[billcalley]

Bill,
    No comments on AutoTrax EDA but it seems that you are somewhat confused
in general about EDA packages.
    Almost every EDA package will allow you to delete existing footprints
and connections in one form or another from your PCB design. Specifically
two of the ones mentioned, PADs and Protel/DXP/AD. And they will not
complain during the subsequent DRC check. The check for connection and part
completion is to utilize whatever ECO/check process to check against the
original schematic, ensuring that all the circuit and intended connections
are still there. Then the DRC checks the physical implementation of those
circuit nets and footprints for PCB design issues.
    How can the PCB DRC check something that you have deleted?

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.







- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the response Brad. Much appreciated, but I am not
confused at all. Taking PADS as an example, there is no way on earth
you can just hit the delete key and get rid of a footprint or net at
will!! The only way you can do that is via ECO mode only. I have
used quite a few versions of both Protel and PADS through the years,
and unless they were all "setup" differently than your versions, I
simply could not hit the delete key on accident on anything that was
in the original schematic and simply get rid of it! I wonder why we
have had two different experiences with these exact same PCB packages?

Thanks Again,

-Bill

 

[Brad Velander]

Hi Bill,
Okay, maybe you are not confused at as low level as I might of suspected
initially.

But I have been using Protel & DXP for getting close to a decade now. I
can delete anything at any time by highlighting/selecting it and hitting
Delete or Shift-Delete. The only thing that will catch any error I have
created thus, is a PCB update or netlist compare to the original schematic,
no DRC check catches it. And there is nothing to set that allows this
behavoir in Protel or DXP (now AD I can't be sure of, we haven't paid the
ransom for those versions yet. But I expect little/no change in this
manner.). I can guarantee you these actions for P98, P99SE and DXP versions.

Can't remember his first name at the moment but if Mr. Bennet is
monitoring S.E.C. at this time he could back me up on that, as he uses
Protel extensively also. The last thing we do before saving a finished PCB,
try running Update PCB from the schematic to make sure nothing has been
accidently lost or changed since starting layout of the PCB. ( The easiest
way to lose something in Protel is to forget that you had it selected, then
select something you want to delete and delete them both without knowing it.
You quickly get into the habit of doing "X", "A", to 'Deselect All' after
almost every action, but there are still times that you may forget and
delete or move things you didn't want to delete or move.)

Yes you are right about the PADs, you must be in the ECO mode but then
you can still delete anything and the DRC won't catch it afterward without
some schematic interaction to restore the connectivity/footprint deleted. I
had used PADs for a large chunk of the 90s.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Bill,
No comments on AutoTrax EDA but it seems that you are somewhat confused
in general about EDA packages.
Almost every EDA package will allow you to delete existing footprints
and connections in one form or another from your PCB design. Specifically
two of the ones mentioned, PADs and Protel/DXP/AD. And they will not
complain during the subsequent DRC check. The check for connection and
part
completion is to utilize whatever ECO/check process to check against the
original schematic, ensuring that all the circuit and intended connections
are still there. Then the DRC checks the physical implementation of those
circuit nets and footprints for PCB design issues.
How can the PCB DRC check something that you have deleted?

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.







- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the response Brad. Much appreciated, but I am not
confused at all. Taking PADS as an example, there is no way on earth
you can just hit the delete key and get rid of a footprint or net at
will!! The only way you can do that is via ECO mode only. I have
used quite a few versions of both Protel and PADS through the years,
and unless they were all "setup" differently than your versions, I
simply could not hit the delete key on accident on anything that was
in the original schematic and simply get rid of it! I wonder why we
have had two different experiences with these exact same PCB packages?

Thanks Again,

-Bill

 

[Leon]

Hi All,

I am thinking of buying AutoTRAX EDA (not the DOS Protel
version!). I have demo'ed virtually every low-cost schematic/layout
package* out there, and they all have certain issues -- some quite
major. And while I'm use to working with Protel and PADS (which have
issues too!), I cannot really afford those packages myself, but I was
wondering if anyone has any feelings about AutoTRAX EDA, either pro or
con, for professional board design. (I don't want to buy this package
and find that it FUBARD up a $2,000 test board -- and made me look
like a fool too!). The only major problem I found with this
incredibly fair priced software would normally be a real deal breaker,
which is it actually lets you delete nets and footprints in the PCB
section after you import your schematic Netlist!! And not only that,
it won't say anything about your deletion when you run the DRC! But I
figure that if I know about that truly bizarre issue, I can be on the
lookout for it.
Any thoughts on using AutoTRAX EDA for professional PCB design (so
far, to me, it seems to be the best of the low-cost packages...)?

I've tried it and it's crap! The schematic entry isn't too bad, but
PCB layout is very awkward and the software has many serious bugs. The
autorouter is a joke.

Have a look at the Yahoo support forum to see what sort of problems
users are having with it - some of them can't even get keys so that
they can run the latest upgrade. I keep an eye on the forum - the
amazing workarounds that users have to employ to get round the various
bugs are quite entertaining. I suppose it's schadenfreude.

I've used Pulsonix for years, it is infinitely easier to use than
Autotrax, and gets the job done very easily and quickly. It's a
comprehensive professional package, which definitely isn't the case
with Autotrax.

Leon


Leon

 

[Leon]

Hi Bill,
Okay, maybe you are not confused at as low level as I might of suspected
initially.

But I have been using Protel & DXP for getting close to a decade now. I
can delete anything at any time by highlighting/selecting it and hitting
Delete or Shift-Delete. The only thing that will catch any error I have
created thus, is a PCB update or netlist compare to the original schematic,
no DRC check catches it. And there is nothing to set that allows this
behavoir in Protel or DXP (now AD I can't be sure of, we haven't paid the
ransom for those versions yet. But I expect little/no change in this
manner.). I can guarantee you these actions for P98, P99SE and DXP versions.

Can't remember his first name at the moment but if Mr. Bennet is
monitoring S.E.C. at this time he could back me up on that, as he uses
Protel extensively also. The last thing we do before saving a finished PCB,
try running Update PCB from the schematic to make sure nothing has been
accidently lost or changed since starting layout of the PCB. ( The easiest
way to lose something in Protel is to forget that you had it selected, then
select something you want to delete and delete them both without knowing it.
You quickly get into the habit of doing "X", "A", to 'Deselect All' after
almost every action, but there are still times that you may forget and
delete or move things you didn't want to delete or move.)

Yes you are right about the PADs, you must be in the ECO mode but then
you can still delete anything and the DRC won't catch it afterward without
some schematic interaction to restore the connectivity/footprint deleted. I
had used PADs for a large chunk of the 90s.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.





Thanks for the response Brad. Much appreciated, but I am not
confused at all. Taking PADS as an example, there is no way on earth
you can just hit the delete key and get rid of a footprint or net at
will!! The only way you can do that is via ECO mode only. I have
used quite a few versions of both Protel and PADS through the years,
and unless they were all "setup" differently than your versions, I
simply could not hit the delete key on accident on anything that was
in the original schematic and simply get rid of it! I wonder why we
have had two different experiences with these exact same PCB packages?

Perhaps it can be set up to do that. It is possible to delete
footprints and nets with the Pulsonix software I use by doing it
explicitly for a particular design by altering one of the default
settings. New designs default to having the setting disabled, of
course.

Leon

 

[billcalley]

Hi Bill,
    Okay, maybe you are not confused at as low level as I might of suspected
initially.

    But I have been using Protel & DXP for getting close to a decade now. I
can delete anything at any time by highlighting/selecting it and hitting
Delete or Shift-Delete. The only thing that will catch any error I have
created thus, is a PCB update or netlist compare to the original schematic,
no DRC check catches it. And there is nothing to set that allows this
behavoir in Protel or DXP (now AD I can't be sure of, we haven't paid the
ransom for those versions yet. But I expect little/no change in this
manner.). I can guarantee you these actions for P98, P99SE and DXP versions.

    Can't remember his first name at the moment but if Mr. Bennet is
monitoring S.E.C. at this time he could back me up on that, as he uses
Protel extensively also. The last thing we do before saving a finished PCB,
try running Update PCB from the schematic to make sure nothing has been
accidently lost or changed since starting layout of the PCB. ( The easiest
way to lose something in Protel is to forget that you had it selected, then
select something you want to delete and delete them both without knowing it.
You quickly get into the habit of doing "X", "A", to 'Deselect All' after
almost every action, but there are still times that you may forget and
delete or move things you didn't want to delete or move.)

    Yes you are right about the PADs, you must be in the ECO mode but then
you can still delete anything and the DRC won't catch it afterward without
some schematic interaction to restore the connectivity/footprint deleted. I
had used PADs for a large chunk of the 90s.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.






   Thanks for the response Brad.  Much appreciated, but I am not
confused at all.  Taking PADS as an example, there is no way on earth
you can just hit the delete key and get rid of a footprint or net at
will!!  The only way you can do that is via ECO mode only.  I have
used quite a few versions of both Protel and PADS through the years,
and unless they were all "setup" differently than your versions, I
simply could not hit the delete key on accident on anything that was
in the original schematic and simply get rid of it!  I wonder why we
have had two different experiences with these exact same PCB packages?

Thanks Again,

-Bill- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the update on that. Yes, I knew I was correct about
PADS needing to be in ECO mode before you could screw-up the
schematic's Netlist (since I have PADS on my computer now), but I had
not thought that Altium DXP (Protel) let you delete a net or a
footprint by the mere act of hitting the Delete key, considering it is
so schematically driven (but maybe I didn't make myself clear:
AutoTRAX EDA actually deletes the underlying Net when you hit the
delete key to delete a copper trace). For some reason, I never
experienced that when I was using DXP (last time was some three years
ago). About half of even the lowest cost PCB packages don't even
permit that, and they are priced at $800 and under!!

Best Regards,

-Bill

 

[billcalley]

I've tried it and it's crap! The schematic entry isn't too bad, but
PCB layout is very awkward and the software has many serious bugs. The
autorouter is a joke.

Have a look at the Yahoo support forum to see what sort of problems
users are having with it - some of them can't even get keys so that
they can run the latest upgrade. I keep an eye on the forum - the
amazing workarounds that users have to employ to get round the various
bugs are quite entertaining. I suppose it's schadenfreude.

I've used Pulsonix for years, it is infinitely easier to use than
Autotrax, and gets the job done very easily and quickly. It's a
comprehensive professional package, which definitely isn't the case
with Autotrax.

Leon

Leon- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks Leon. I had such high hopes for AutoTRAX EDA because it
seemed like the best of the low cost PCB packages, but I found out
that a person could not even lay down stitching vias from one
groundplane to another, as well as numerous deadly bugs that would
have had me ending up in the unemployment line after the PC boards
came back from fab!

Thanks,

-Bill

 

[billcalley]

Perhaps it can be set up to do that. It is possible to delete
footprints and nets with the Pulsonix software I use by doing it
explicitly for a particular design by altering one of the default
settings. New designs default to having the setting disabled, of
course.

Leon- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That could very well be Leon, considering I knew a layout guy eight
years ago who used Protel 99 without the layout being schematically
driven at all -- he used it more like a drawing package for PCBs!

Best,

-Bill

 

[Robert Adsett]

Bill,
No comments on AutoTrax EDA but it seems that you are somewhat confused
in general about EDA packages.
Almost every EDA package will allow you to delete existing footprints
and connections in one form or another from your PCB design. Specifically
two of the ones mentioned, PADs and Protel/DXP/AD. And they will not
complain during the subsequent DRC check. The check for connection and part
completion is to utilize whatever ECO/check process to check against the
original schematic, ensuring that all the circuit and intended connections
are still there. Then the DRC checks the physical implementation of those
circuit nets and footprints for PCB design issues.
How can the PCB DRC check something that you have deleted?

Cadsoft's Eagle won't let you delete a part or a trace in the layout.
At least as long as you are using both layout and schematic capture, in
that case you normally run both simultaneously, any circuit changes are
made in schematic capture. I suppose if you only use the layout by
itself you might be able to delete parts and traces but in that case you
pretty well have to be able to,

Robert

 

[Leon]

Thanks Leon. I had such high hopes for AutoTRAX EDA because it
seemed like the best of the low cost PCB packages, but I found out
that a person could not even lay down stitching vias from one
groundplane to another, as well as numerous deadly bugs that would
have had me ending up in the unemployment line after the PC boards
came back from fab!

Thanks,

-Bill

A very good low-cost package that I used until Pulsonix came along is
Number One Systems Easy-PC. It's about the same price as Eagle but is
very much easier to use.

Leon

 

[Marra]

A very good low-cost package that I used until Pulsonix came along is
Number One Systems Easy-PC. It's about the same price as Eagle but is
very much easier to use.

Leon- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is a copy of EasyPc on ebay at the moment.
£240.

 

[JeffM]

[untrimmed and unnecessary blockquoting removed]
There is a copy of [SPAM] on ebay at the moment.

Know your vendor:

His business philosophy:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci....ss.ethics+profit+*-*-the-ethics+uu-uu+suckers

His business ethics:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci....+qq+SPAM+PCBCAD21+Astroturfing+uu+a.real.jerk

The product:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci....tics.and.pcb.layouts.I've.seen.in.a.long.time

 

[Brad Velander]

Leon,
No set-up necessary Leon, it does it straight out of the box and there
is no option that controls this. Select a footprint (Shift-click,
highlighted), press "Shift" "Delete", the footprint is gone along with all
the underlying net connections to it (existing traces will still be there,
unless they were also selected but connect to nothing). The DRC will not
catch it because you have altered the PCB netlist. There is no setting that
will stop it.

As I mentioned the check for such an instance is to run the schematic
PCB Update facility or a netlist compare on the finished PCB. It is not a
bad thing except if you are undisciplined and forget to ever recheck the
design against your schematic.

Even the discussion of PADs has pointed out that you can also do this in
PADs. So what if you have to do it through the ECO facility, it can still be
done just not so accidently. After doing it even in ECO mode, no DRC check
will flag it, you are back to also checking it against the original
schematics.


Bill,

Your comment about removing a trace segment in Autotrax EDA though is
definitely a weekness though. Delete a trace segment and the underlying net
is lost, that is very ugly. How are you supposed to revise traces? Is there
some special edit function for rerouting if you wanted to rip up a bunch of
traces and start routing again?

 

[billcalley]

Bill,

    Your comment about removing a trace segment in Autotrax EDA thoughis
definitely a weekness though. Delete a trace segment and the underlying net
is lost, that is very ugly. How are you supposed to revise traces? Is there
some special edit function for rerouting if you wanted to rip up a bunch of
traces and start routing again?

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message

Hi Brad,

Yes, there is -- but why hitting the Delete key would rip-up the
trace *and* the underlying net is a mystery to me in Autotrax EDA. As
with any weirdly programmed software (as most layout programs seem to
be), knowing the do's and dont's can avoid a lot of heartache. But
why these programs should be written in that way in the first place
has always mystified me. At least the PADS way, with their ECO
safety, makes the most sense. Any other technique of modifying the
underlying netlist in the layout side is idiotic, at least if one
likes a fully schematically-driven piece of layout software -- which
I, of course, do.

Hi Leon,

Yes, EasyPC is a very good looking piece of PCB software, but
unfortunately with our current UK to US exchange rates, it is just too
much money right now. A real shame.

Best Regards,

-Bill

 

[Brad Velander]

Bill,
I always feel sorry for you Brits and the extortionist prices you pay
for almost everything. I have worked for companies where our product sold in
the UK for approx. 3X the same price it sold locally. (And we weren't
charging anything different on those units. They were simple/cheap computer
peripherals, $20 - $30 over here and i saw adds in the UK for approx. 30 -
45 pounds.) I just don't know how you guys live over there, on even a decent
salary.

On that editting in Autotrax EDA, yeah you are right, it is just silly.
They shouldn't allow the delete key to delete traces in such instances. Now
that said some others would be upset about that but it is a classic 6 of one
or half a dozen of the other scenario.
--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.


Hi Brad,

Yes, there is -- but why hitting the Delete key would rip-up the
trace *and* the underlying net is a mystery to me in Autotrax EDA. As
with any weirdly programmed software (as most layout programs seem to
be), knowing the do's and dont's can avoid a lot of heartache. But
why these programs should be written in that way in the first place
has always mystified me. At least the PADS way, with their ECO
safety, makes the most sense. Any other technique of modifying the
underlying netlist in the layout side is idiotic, at least if one
likes a fully schematically-driven piece of layout software -- which
I, of course, do.

Hi Leon,

Yes, EasyPC is a very good looking piece of PCB software, but
unfortunately with our current UK to US exchange rates, it is just too
much money right now. A real shame.

Best Regards,

-Bill

 

[Peter Bennett]

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the update on that. Yes, I knew I was correct about
PADS needing to be in ECO mode before you could screw-up the
schematic's Netlist (since I have PADS on my computer now), but I had
not thought that Altium DXP (Protel) let you delete a net or a
footprint by the mere act of hitting the Delete key, considering it is
so schematically driven (but maybe I didn't make myself clear:
AutoTRAX EDA actually deletes the underlying Net when you hit the
delete key to delete a copper trace). For some reason, I never
experienced that when I was using DXP (last time was some three years
ago). About half of even the lowest cost PCB packages don't even
permit that, and they are priced at $800 and under!!

Best Regards,

-Bill

Protel/Altium will certainly let you delete track segments, or even
whole tracks, without deleting the net - DRC will report the net as
unrouted or partially routed. It will also let you delete components
(but you can "undo" the deletion if you realize your error in time).

I'm not sure what DRC will do if you delete all pins and track
segments related to a net - I'd hope it would still report it as
unrouted. However, I never consider a board "finished", until the
program reports "no changes" when updating the board from the
schematic, and there are no unexplained DRC errors remaining
(occasionally, a design will have strange things that are reported as
DRC errors, but that I know are what I want.)

If you delete a component from the PCB, the "update from schematics"
step will restore it.

 

[billcalley]

Bill,
    I always feel sorry for you Brits and the extortionist prices you pay
for almost everything. I have worked for companies where our product sold in
the UK for approx. 3X the same price it sold locally. (And we weren't
charging anything different on those units. They were simple/cheap computer
peripherals, $20 - $30 over here and i saw adds in the UK for approx. 30 -
45 pounds.) I just don't know how you guys live over there, on even a decent
salary.

    On that editting in Autotrax EDA, yeah you are right, it is just silly.
They shouldn't allow the delete key to delete traces in such instances. Now
that said some others would be upset about that but it is a classic 6 of one
or half a dozen of the other scenario.
--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.



Hi Brad,

    Yes, there is -- but why hitting the Delete key would rip-up the
trace *and* the underlying net is a mystery to me in Autotrax EDA.  As
with any weirdly programmed software (as most layout programs seem to
be), knowing the do's and dont's can avoid a lot of heartache.  But
why these programs should be written in that way in the first place
has always mystified me.  At least the PADS way, with their ECO
safety, makes the most sense.  Any other technique of modifying the
underlying netlist in the layout side is idiotic, at least if one
likes a fully schematically-driven piece of layout software -- which
I, of course, do.

Hi Leon,

    Yes, EasyPC is a very good looking piece of PCB software, but
unfortunately with our current UK to US exchange rates, it is just too
much money right now.  A real shame.

Best Regards,

-Bill

Hi Brad,

My statement about "our current UK to US exchange rates" was too
ambiguous! I am an American, but the British pound is now 2x$, which
makes a lot of their products too expensive. But I agree about what
the British pay for things, especially for what their salaries are. I
knew many a great UK engineer who was getting paid only $80k a year,
while I was getting $120K, and we were all doing the same thing and
working for the same company -- and yet their housing and food was
actually more than what I had to pay (not to mention their obscenely
high tax rates). That's why we have such a high standard of living, I
guess!

Best,

-Bill

 

[Leon]

Hi Brad,

My statement about "our current UK to US exchange rates" was too
ambiguous! I am an American, but the British pound is now 2x$, which
makes a lot of their products too expensive. But I agree about what
the British pay for things, especially for what their salaries are. I
knew many a great UK engineer who was getting paid only $80k a year,
while I was getting $120K, and we were all doing the same thing and
working for the same company -- and yet their housing and food was
actually more than what I had to pay (not to mention their obscenely
high tax rates). That's why we have such a high standard of living, I
guess!

Best,

-Bill

Our taxes pay for things like health care, which is free to everyone.
Our poorer people are probably a lot better off than the poor in your
country.

Leon

 

[billcalley]

Our taxes pay for things like health care, which is free to everyone.
Our poorer people are probably a lot better off than the poor in your
country.

Leon- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry Leon: You're a very nice guy, and I'm not going to start a flame
war on welfare states, pro and con!!

-Bill