The scam of rooftop windpower generation

[Eeyore]

I was pleased to discover the link below on a *repectable* home windpower site
about the curent scam in the UK promoting rooftop windpower generation no doubt
targeted at well-meaning townies who'd like to see themselves as 'green'.

For my own part, I'd been amazed to see that one of the most prominent
manufacturers of this kit ( now being sold in a well-known DIY chain ) shows
average windspeed figures at 25 metre elevation to promote their product despite
saying they can't install it any higher than your roof !

http://www.scoraigwind.com/rooftop.html

" Rooftop wind turbines are a load of nonsense
Anyone who has experience in the industry knows that wind turbines require
substantial quantities of wind to produce power. There may be strong gusts and
turbulence around buildings but only a small amount of power is available in
such locations.

There are a number of manufacturers of rooftop wind turbines. They have sprung
up to meet popular demand. There is no evidence that their products can deliver
what they claim. Here are some of the web sites.
http://www.renewabledevices.com/swift/specification.htm
http://windsave.com/
http://www.d400.co.uk/
http://www.buildingmountedturbines.com/
http://www.gual-industrie.com/

The manufacturers of rooftop wind turbines invariably make quite unrealistic
claims, and present a very strong marketing rather than engineering
image............."


Graham

 

[danny]

No doubt you're right. The entire windmill propaganda is for
reactionary political reasons, in order to make some people
think there's something wrong with the really efficient energy
sources - nuclear power plants, above all, and also oil etc.

Rolf M.

....................................................
Yep a scam just like chasing the wind for the cash you have spent.
There is only one type that may pay and that is the Helical which generates
when the wind comes in all direction up down sideways.
Suburbs are useless for wind generation, only
Heat pumps are sound in town.
People contemplating spending the £1600 would be better off put in extra
insulation, upto 12 inchs is good.

 

[Dave Gower]

... The entire windmill propaganda is for
reactionary political reasons, in order to make some people
think there's something wrong with the really efficient energy
sources - nuclear power plants, above all, and also oil etc.

While there are limitations to wind power, this blanket condemnation
overstates the negatives. In very good sites, with large and advanced
turbines it is a commercially viable proposition. And it can also be a
practical energy source in remote locations, especially if reliable solar
energy is not available.

One promising form of wind power that is getting a more serious look now is
wave power.

I do agree, however, that nuclear needs to be considered more seriously.
Chernobyl and Three Mile Island are examples of how not to do nuclear, but
there are much better designs. And the waste problem can be managed.

 

[Eeyore]

People contemplating spending the £1600 would be better off put in extra
insulation, upto 12 inchs is good.

Absolutely spot on and it wouldn't cost £1600 either.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

While there are limitations to wind power, this blanket condemnation
overstates the negatives. In very good sites, with large and advanced
turbines it is a commercially viable proposition. And it can also be a
practical energy source in remote locations, especially if reliable solar
energy is not available.

My objection is about the scam of selling baby turbines to fit on the wall of
your house in an urban location.

This will always be a total waste of money.

Graham

 

[Dave Gower]

Most rooftop wind turbines - the one being referred to in the original
thread has IIRC a 10 year claimed lifespan, 1Kw peak generation, and
3 year warranty, and will require solid couple of years running at maximum
output before it pays back - are a joke.

I am not disputing that, which is why I made reference to remote locations
where there may be less alternative sources. But Rolf was expanding it "all
wind", which was the essence my rebuttal.

 

[Dave Gower]

Since this is posted to alt.energy.homepower, does this mean that
you are advocating home nuclear reactors?

I didn't select the cross-posts, and am not going to try to eliminate them.
Rolf changed the topic to global energy, so complain to him.

 

[Mauried]

What needs to be considered more seriously is the simple fact
that there has to be limits put on the amount of energy an
individual can use. And that includes hiring someone else to use
energy on the individual's behalf, which is what happens when
you buy something manufactured (etc.) and transported to your
location.

End-user energy consumption is but a part of the picture.

There is simply NO WAY that people can continue using more
and more energy _and_ for more and more people to join the
supermaterialistic Middle Class of the world.

A Middle Class family now consumes at least 10X the energy
of a Middle Class person of 50 years ago, and that figure
continues to rise with more and more hi-technology becoming
a part of everyday life.

The economy can't grow forever on a finite planet.

There isn't a technological fix here. All more technology
does is exacerbate the problem. And all of the alternative
energy 'solutions' are worse than the original problem.

There are so many illusions in this area.

Take the amount of energy expended to _create_ a working
nuclear power plant (starting with mining and processing and
transportation of the raw materials).

How long before it produces enough energy to make up for that?

No, dollars and cents do not accurately reflect the energy
involved because there are way too many games played in that
arena.


Alan

Wouldnt it make more sense then to start reducing the number of end
users, rather than imposing limits on what an ever increasing number
of end users can use.
Seems this is something that no one wants to address.

 

[Guest]

Wouldnt it make more sense then to start reducing the number of end
users, rather than imposing limits on what an ever increasing number
of end users can use.

I fully agree.

I should get electricity, but by nearest neighbours should be
turned off.

They are wankers, anyway.

 

[Harbin Osteen]

Howdy:
I wonder if a energy co-op would work.
Say this co-op produces a efficient wind generator
that would be around 500 kw (or more), and the co-op
would have property in a prime wind area to
set up these wind generators. A person would invest
in these wind generators, say buy a wind generator,
or invest in a percentage of one, and the power
would offset there own power use, and the excess
power would pay for maintenance, and what ever profit
they would make.
You don't have to have a wind generator on your
roof if you plane on tying into the grid anyway, you
could have it anywhere on the grid, so why not put
it in a prime area to get the best use out of it. If you
are going to get off the grid all together, that is a different
story, you would have to have the generator on the
property.
Does this make since?

--

SeeYaa Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?

-

 

[Eeyore]

Howdy:
I wonder if a energy co-op would work.
Say this co-op produces a efficient wind generator
that would be around 500 kw (or more), and the co-op
would have property in a prime wind area to
set up these wind generators. A person would invest
in these wind generators, say buy a wind generator,
or invest in a percentage of one, and the power
would offset there own power use, and the excess
power would pay for maintenance, and what ever profit
they would make.
You don't have to have a wind generator on your
roof if you plane on tying into the grid anyway, you
could have it anywhere on the grid, so why not put
it in a prime area to get the best use out of it. If you
are going to get off the grid all together, that is a different
story, you would have to have the generator on the
property.
Does this make since?

Well........

I had thought that instead of 10 householders buying doubtful rooftop turbines @
£1,600 ea they could club together to buy *one* decent one for £16,000.

Well.... It seems that would buy a 20kW turbine fom these guys, but not the
grid-tie inverter.
http://www.energyenv.co.uk/WindPowerKits.asp

Just a thought. You'd need to find somewhere to install it of course.


Graham

 

[[email protected]]

I wonder if a energy co-op would work.
Say this co-op produces a efficient wind generator
that would be around 500 kw (or more), and the co-op
would have property in a prime wind area to
set up these wind generators. A person would invest
in these wind generators, say buy a wind generator,
or invest in a percentage of one, and the power
would offset there own power use, and the excess
power would pay for maintenance, and what ever profit
they would make.

That sounds like the "Altamont Pass" area in California.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Pass
Photos:
http://xahlee.org/Whirlwheel_dir/livermore.html

The Altamont Pass is in a small pocket of wind potential grade 6 near a
population center in a region that is largely grade 1 and 2.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/windpoweringamerica/

 

[Craig]

It is very interesting to read your comments on roof-mounted micro wind
turbines and also the information on the website you linked to.

I am a protection engineer for a Distribution Network Operator in the UK
and part of my work is the approval of generation interconnections with
our network, up to 33kV. I have spoken to a number of very reputable
installers and designers of small scale embedded generation equipment
and they all say exactly the same thing about these roof-mounted devices.

I have to say too, regrettably, that some of the companies
selling/installing roof-mounted devices have a pretty poor regard for
statutory regulations and industry standards in my experience. They
certainly don't do themselves or their customers any favours by behaving
in such an unprofessional manner.

On a positive note, for every purveyor of snake-oil, there are at least
two very good companies looking after their (and our) customers!

I hope it won't be long before the media get their heads round the idea
that a roof-mounted wind turbine for every home is not the panacea for
climate change they currently think it is. There are plenty of other
ways to play your part in conserving energy.

regards
Craig

 

[Eeyore]

It is very interesting to read your comments on roof-mounted micro wind
turbines and also the information on the website you linked to.

I am a protection engineer for a Distribution Network Operator in the UK
and part of my work is the approval of generation interconnections with
our network, up to 33kV. I have spoken to a number of very reputable
installers and designers of small scale embedded generation equipment
and they all say exactly the same thing about these roof-mounted devices.

It's hard to deny the science !

I have to say too, regrettably, that some of the companies
selling/installing roof-mounted devices have a pretty poor regard for
statutory regulations and industry standards in my experience. They
certainly don't do themselves or their customers any favours by behaving
in such an unprofessional manner.

On a positive note, for every purveyor of snake-oil, there are at least
two very good companies looking after their (and our) customers!

I hope it won't be long before the media get their heads round the idea
that a roof-mounted wind turbine for every home is not the panacea for
climate change they currently think it is.

It's such an easy idea to sell though, like all the 'PC' nonsense that's floating
around in all manner of areas.

There are plenty of other ways to play your part in conserving energy.

My own feeling is that a real push for better insulated homes would achieve far, far
more. And so so quickly.

Suppose you want to fit more insulation. There are supposedly some grants still
available but the paperwork is absurdly complicated, yet the government subsidy is
already built-in to these absurdy 'hi-tech solutions' like roof windpower that really
do no good at all.

The dice are firmly loaded in favour of the charlatans.

Graham

 

[Harbin Osteen]

Hi Graham:
The turbines on the link you provided would be great if you
were to us them for off-grid application, but if you were to
go with the co-op idea, the co-op would be the one to tie
into the grid, and that cost would come out of the maintenance
cost of the turbine that you invested in. The co-op should
use turbines of 500 kw or larger because of the efficiency, and
it will make better use of the land, and less likely to kill raptors
because the blades turn slower. Here is a link to a turbine that
is 450 kw, and it is going for $208,450.00 U.S..
http://www.windturbinewarehouse.com/Bonus 450 kW Refurbished Specs..pdf

I believe that would work out to be $463.00 per kw, so you might buy
10 kw, $4630.00, worth of shares in the turbine. Not bad, and a small percentage
would go to maintenance, and all other b.s..

--

SeeYaa Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?

-

 

[Harbin Osteen]

Hi Clarence:
Is this a co-op, or privately owned, or a public utility?

--

SeeYaa Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?

-

 

[Derek Broughton]

Being an old timer I can remember when people used your same exact
argument for AC electricity, Natural Gas piped into the home , etc.
With proper design, it will be safe. It may take a few casualties to
get all the bugs worked out, but it will come.

I won't be around but every home will have self-contained power one of
these days, it's a logical concept.

I'm not so sure. People die every year from accidents with stoves, furnaces
and electrical wiring, but that isn't politically as bad as anything to do
with nuclear.

About wind, anyone who has walked under the huge wind generators along
the Dutch coast knows wind power is great if you have the wind.

And while I'll agree that - in general - rooftop windpower is a bad idea, I
get reasonable payback from my Air-X mounted to my (detached) garage roof.
If the wind's out of the North or North-west, turbulence from the house is
a real problem, but wind out of the South or South-west (the prevailing
direction) is completely free of obstruction for a few thousand miles (Nova
Scotia coast). One of these days I'll get the turbine up another 30' and
really get the most out of it, but the trade-off in ease of maintenance and
cost of cable keeps me from making that jump.

 

[Derek Broughton]

Now, explain why you can't figure out the maximum energy used to create
a nuclear plant by doing the simple sum cost / price per Kwh of the
cheapest form of energy.

Sure you can work out the real cost, but afaict nobody really _has_ done
that yet.

Cost of Building + cost of subsidies + cost of waste-disposal = ?

In fact, if all of those were taken into account, the number you really want
is not cost / price per Kwh, it's simply the price per Kwh. The Kwh rate
for nuclear power is lower than it should be because of the subsidies and
the still-unknown costs of waste disposal.

Which is not to say that I'm anti-nuclear. I think that if the nuclear
generating companies really had to pay for permanent disposal of waste, and
got no subsidies (or at least no more than the fossil fuel industry) they'd
still be the low-cost provider, but that's just my opinion.

 

[danny]

It's hard to deny the science !



It's such an easy idea to sell though, like all the 'PC' nonsense that's
floating
around in all manner of areas.



My own feeling is that a real push for better insulated homes would
achieve far, far
more. And so so quickly.

Suppose you want to fit more insulation. There are supposedly some grants
still
available but the paperwork is absurdly complicated, yet the government
subsidy is
already built-in to these absurdy 'hi-tech solutions' like roof windpower
that really
do no good at all.

The dice are firmly loaded in favour of the charlatans.

Graham

Be very carefull who you get the advice from, only there is a great deal of
spin in them turbines.
Consisider even in a great spot with max generating winds you cannot expect
more than 35% of any day to get generating wind speeds.
A dwelling would probably not so advantagously sited, think more along the
15% - 20% generating time.
An helical will do better in awkward spots but at a bigger price tag for a
sound design.
Put your cash into insulation especially that first 150 mm, 300 mm still
gives a good saving, clad the north facing wall and insulate upto 100 mm. do
the lot if it is feasible, and can look good.
This is where modern semi underground design is good, built into an hill
side.
Straw houses 450 mm of insulated walls, much under utilised.

 

[Mary Fisher]

I'm actually at the moment adding 100mm of rockwool to my walls, as
they were uninsulated. This is a large job, and will pay back in some
2-3 years.

You're only doing that NOW? We did ours donkey's years ago. It wasn't a
large job and the difference was perceptible immediately.

Single glazed windows - for example, unless the rest of the property is
well insulated are rarely a major source of heat loss.

But they are a source of discomfort which makes people turn up the heat.

And double glazing is comparatively expensive, compared to some other
options.

Depends how you do it. We did ours ourselves, fitting factory made to
measure dg panes into existing wooden frames. The best of all worlds,
inexpensive, no ugly plastic, no cutting down of light ingress because of
wide frames and instant comfort.

Mary