Takeover standards

[tourman]

I would like to hear comments from other regular installation
companies on what standards they personally use before "taking over"
alarm systems installed by other companies or individuals. Since I
have been doing far more takeovers lately, AND I am also now "cherry
picking" my clients, I have worked out a rough guide I use called the
"three strikes, you're out" rule ! It gives me something to use other
than my gut instincts. If you can add to it, I would like to hear your
comments. If you disagree with specific points, please tell me / us
why with rationale.

In looking over an installation, if I can assess three strikes against
it, I walk away rather than "take it over" and more often than not
save ending up buying myself a bushel of future trouble.

For example:

One strike if there is no wiring diagram in the can
Two strikes if the connections to the panel board don't leave at least
six inches of spare wire on each zone loop to work with in the future
(this guarantees you can expect trouble with service at the other end
of the loop)
One strike if the EOL connectors are in the can rather than at the end
of the line where they belong (a sure sign of an amateur)
One half strike if the installation was done by someone who only
installs casually, or does it in conjunction with other services such
as video, or home automation in which he specializes
One half strike if the home owner had the installation done by a
friend
One half strike if the installer has used the smallest can possible on
a system that is very expandable
One half strike if the panel can is located such that it cannot be
easily accessed for service.
One half strike if the home is totally finished in the basement AND it
was done by the casual installer above, so wiring errors and drywall
nailing problems are impossible to fix
Three full strikes if it was installed by certain companies which we
all know about in our local areas (in my area, for example, we call
this guy "Jimmy the slease")
One full strike if every point of contact is NOT home run
One full strike if doors are contacted using magnetic contacts on the
heel of the door
Three full strikes if motions are wired in series AND they come back
to the can on one single wire

I am sure there are other points I have missed

RHC

 

[Norm Mugford]

I would like to hear comments from other regular installation
companies on what standards they personally use before "taking over"
alarm systems installed by other companies or individuals. Since I
have been doing far more takeovers lately, AND I am also now "cherry
picking" my clients, I have worked out a rough guide I use called the
"three strikes, you're out" rule ! It gives me something to use other
than my gut instincts. If you can add to it, I would like to hear your
comments. If you disagree with specific points, please tell me / us
why with rationale.

In looking over an installation, if I can assess three strikes against
it, I walk away rather than "take it over" and more often than not
save ending up buying myself a bushel of future trouble.

For example:

One strike if there is no wiring diagram in the can
Two strikes if the connections to the panel board don't leave at least
six inches of spare wire on each zone loop to work with in the future
(this guarantees you can expect trouble with service at the other end
of the loop)
One strike if the EOL connectors are in the can rather than at the end
of the line where they belong (a sure sign of an amateur)
One half strike if the installation was done by someone who only
installs casually, or does it in conjunction with other services such
as video, or home automation in which he specializes
One half strike if the home owner had the installation done by a
friend
One half strike if the installer has used the smallest can possible on
a system that is very expandable
One half strike if the panel can is located such that it cannot be
easily accessed for service.
One half strike if the home is totally finished in the basement AND it
was done by the casual installer above, so wiring errors and drywall
nailing problems are impossible to fix
Three full strikes if it was installed by certain companies which we
all know about in our local areas (in my area, for example, we call
this guy "Jimmy the slease")
One full strike if every point of contact is NOT home run
One full strike if doors are contacted using magnetic contacts on the
heel of the door
Three full strikes if motions are wired in series AND they come back
to the can on one single wire

I am sure there are other points I have missed

RHC

How about three strikes if the customer refuses to sign an agreement stating
that he is
not under contract with any other monitoring facility.

How about three strikes if your "gut" feeling is "somethings wrong with this
system
or customer".

How about three strikes if the customer is just looking to get you to fix
the system,
now that you've looked at it and poked around.

Norm Mugford





I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html

 

[tourman]

How about three strikes if the customer refuses to sign an agreement
stating that he is not under contract with any other monitoring
facility.

RHC: Ok, that is a valid point. Although I usually get takeovers when
the client has just bought the home, this is a valid point
nevertheless (the least we should do is check and verify) although
that can be a bit harder to do. Personally, I've never had anyone come
to me in 15 years trying to beat a contract though...

How about three strikes if your "gut" feeling is "somethings wrong
with this system or customer".

RHC: Like what specifically Norm ? If the system is showing a trouble,
that is easy to diagnose at the keypad. Something wrong with the
customer ?

How about three strikes if the customer is just looking to get you to
fix the system, now that you've looked at it and poked around.

RHC: Ok, but since I don't work on non monitored accounts, this one
doesn't apply to me. But for those who do, valid point !
If the system doesn't actually work, a decision has to be made whether
to fix it or not and the amount of work needed versus whether or not
to just walk away. Speaking for myself, if it was seriously "broken",
I would likely opt to walk away. Others may or may not - personal
decision, but a valid point nevertheless !

Actually my post was more to do with the quality of the install versus
some of the other "gun instinct" decisions we make about clients

 

[Paul Ekins]

We do take-overs on a regular basis. I normally rely on gut instinct and
have devised a three layer contract for customers. Gold, Silver and Bronze
levels are in place to allow the customer to choose the level of cover they
require / can afford. It also allows me to ascertain the level of risk and
only offer the cover I deem fit for the installation. So far it has worked
well with an ever growing client base and no problems to date.


--
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.


Paul Ekins

Linc Secure

 

[Robert L Bass]

Three strikes if it says Tandy or X10 on any of the components.

 

[Robert L Bass]

Three full strikes if it was installed by certain companies which we

all know about in our local areas (in my area, for example, we call
this guy "Jimmy the slease")...

I thought he was in Brooklyn.

 

[Frank Olson]

I would like to hear comments from other regular installation
companies on what standards they personally use before "taking over"
alarm systems installed by other companies or individuals. Since I
have been doing far more takeovers lately, AND I am also now "cherry
picking" my clients, I have worked out a rough guide I use called the
"three strikes, you're out" rule ! It gives me something to use other
than my gut instincts. If you can add to it, I would like to hear your
comments. If you disagree with specific points, please tell me / us
why with rationale.

In looking over an installation, if I can assess three strikes against
it, I walk away rather than "take it over" and more often than not
save ending up buying myself a bushel of future trouble.

For example:

One strike if there is no wiring diagram in the can
Two strikes if the connections to the panel board don't leave at least
six inches of spare wire on each zone loop to work with in the future
(this guarantees you can expect trouble with service at the other end
of the loop)
One strike if the EOL connectors are in the can rather than at the end
of the line where they belong (a sure sign of an amateur)
One half strike if the installation was done by someone who only
installs casually, or does it in conjunction with other services such
as video, or home automation in which he specializes
One half strike if the home owner had the installation done by a
friend
One half strike if the installer has used the smallest can possible on
a system that is very expandable
One half strike if the panel can is located such that it cannot be
easily accessed for service.
One half strike if the home is totally finished in the basement AND it
was done by the casual installer above, so wiring errors and drywall
nailing problems are impossible to fix
Three full strikes if it was installed by certain companies which we
all know about in our local areas (in my area, for example, we call
this guy "Jimmy the slease")
One full strike if every point of contact is NOT home run
One full strike if doors are contacted using magnetic contacts on the
heel of the door
Three full strikes if motions are wired in series AND they come back
to the can on one single wire

I am sure there are other points I have missed

RHC

My business isn't "in business" to "take over" from other businesses.
We get enough referrals and our customer base includes a goodly number
of commercial property management firms. When we are presented with a
"take-over", the system has to comply with our installation practices.
If that means spending a few hours to "make it right", then the customer
has to be informed of the associated costs. If the customer has no
interest in ensuring that his system is properly installed and the
components are "up to snuff", then that's the kind of customer we don't
want anyway.

 

[tourman]

Point well taken. However, every alarm business does takeovers. They
are a natural part of this industry where rates and service prices and
quality vary all over the map. And with ADT being the biggest and the
most expensive company around, migration from their ranks is to be
expected in large numbers after contract terms are up. A good quality
system takeover is a gift, and no company just walks away from it.
However, it is easy to buy yourself a bundle of trouble, and that is
what my question is about.

I am simply asking what specific technical standards do people use to
judge other installations before making the move to "takeover" the
system. Details !!

RHC

 

[tourman]

Hehehe....ain't that the truth !! I just thought of another one that
relates directly to what you say. Had an instance where a guy asked me
to take over monitoring of an alarm panel that was REALLY old (6 volt
system) and which hadn't been on line for years (you can imagine what
kind of shape THAT one would have been in..)

As you say, three strikes before you even get there.....

RHC

 

[Crash Gordon]

My standard is; if it looks like crap and the takeover candidate doesn't
want to pay to make it correct...we're gone.
If it's a 2 door 1 pir system in a 6000 sq ft house with 8 doors and 35
windows and they don't want to pay to make it right...we're gone.

Basically if it's not the way I would do my own house, or they don't want to
pay to make it so...ta ta.





|I would like to hear comments from other regular installation
| companies on what standards they personally use before "taking over"
| alarm systems installed by other companies or individuals. Since I
| have been doing far more takeovers lately, AND I am also now "cherry
| picking" my clients, I have worked out a rough guide I use called the
| "three strikes, you're out" rule ! It gives me something to use other
| than my gut instincts. If you can add to it, I would like to hear your
| comments. If you disagree with specific points, please tell me / us
| why with rationale.
|
| In looking over an installation, if I can assess three strikes against
| it, I walk away rather than "take it over" and more often than not
| save ending up buying myself a bushel of future trouble.
|
| For example:
|
| One strike if there is no wiring diagram in the can
| Two strikes if the connections to the panel board don't leave at least
| six inches of spare wire on each zone loop to work with in the future
| (this guarantees you can expect trouble with service at the other end
| of the loop)
| One strike if the EOL connectors are in the can rather than at the end
| of the line where they belong (a sure sign of an amateur)
| One half strike if the installation was done by someone who only
| installs casually, or does it in conjunction with other services such
| as video, or home automation in which he specializes
| One half strike if the home owner had the installation done by a
| friend
| One half strike if the installer has used the smallest can possible on
| a system that is very expandable
| One half strike if the panel can is located such that it cannot be
| easily accessed for service.
| One half strike if the home is totally finished in the basement AND it
| was done by the casual installer above, so wiring errors and drywall
| nailing problems are impossible to fix
| Three full strikes if it was installed by certain companies which we
| all know about in our local areas (in my area, for example, we call
| this guy "Jimmy the slease")
| One full strike if every point of contact is NOT home run
| One full strike if doors are contacted using magnetic contacts on the
| heel of the door
| Three full strikes if motions are wired in series AND they come back
| to the can on one single wire
|
| I am sure there are other points I have missed
|
| RHC
|

 

[Frank Olson]

Point well taken. However, every alarm business does takeovers.

Agreed. For your information we "take over" a fair number of systems.
90% are DIY'er nightmares or professionally installed systems that have
been "fat fingered" by the owner.

They
are a natural part of this industry where rates and service prices and
quality vary all over the map.

A customer that's "shopping" for a better rate (or trying to get out of
an existing contract because he's been offered a better rate by someone
in the business of "take-overs) is a customer that I don't want. I also
have no respect for a company that actively pursues "cherry picking" and
have never encouraged my sales guys to do it either.

And with ADT being the biggest and the
most expensive company around, migration from their ranks is to be
expected in large numbers after contract terms are up.

I know plenty of ADT and Chubb customers that have been their customers
for years. If the attrition rate is as high as you suggest, then
someone at ADT in Ontario isn't doing their job.

A good quality
system takeover is a gift, and no company just walks away from it.

A "good quality system takeover" is more than just a "gift", Bob. The
customers motives for presenting you with this "gift" must be more than
"I want a better rate" though, otherwise he'll be doing the same thing
again (only this time you'll be the one on the "short end").

However, it is easy to buy yourself a bundle of trouble, and that is
what my question is about.

It seems to me you already have a long list of things to watch out for.
Good topic!!

 

[Petem]

our company do take over also...

last one I know of was 125,000 customer at once ;-)

 

[tourman]

Agreed. For your information we "take over" a fair number of systems.
90% are DIY'er nightmares or professionally installed systems that have
been "fat fingered" by the owner.

RHC: Now you seem to be contradicting yourself Frank. I got the
distinct impression from your last post that you felt your company was
above all that. Now you tell me that your company does take over
"nightmare systems" and messed up professional systems. I'm not trying
to be argumentative, but which is it ? And more to the point, why
would you even touch these problem systems ?

A customer that's "shopping" for a better rate (or trying to get out of
an existing contract because he's been offered a better rate by someone
in the business of "take-overs) is a customer that I don't want. I also
have no respect for a company that actively pursues "cherry picking" and
have never encouraged my sales guys to do it either.

RHC: Now you're confusing me even more. Why wouldn't any company look
for clean, trouble free, professionally installed systems to takeover
if they had the chance? If that's "cherry picking" then we obviously
don't have the same understanding of what that term means. That's
simply one way to work smarter rather than harder !! As for customers
trying to worm out of long term contracts, I honestly know nothing
about that because I don't ask them to sign those sorts of contracts.

And with ADT being the biggest and the
most expensive company around, migration from their ranks is to be
expected in large numbers after contract terms are up.

I know plenty of ADT and Chubb customers that have been their customers
for years. If the attrition rate is as high as you suggest, then
someone at ADT in Ontario isn't doing their job.

RHC: I can't comment on Chubb at all, other than one instance where
they quoted a client of mine $1000 to partition an 864 (no kidding).
After we both stopped laughing, I did it for nothing in software !!
They also owe me money for unlocking some boards, and it's clear they
don't intend to pay, so we'll see what kind of service I give them
next round of boards. As for ADT in Ontario, their prices are
ridiculous, their service is piss poor at worst, spotty at best, and
their customer rapport seems to be non - existent. Oh dear...did I
leave out their monitoring sucks....When their contracts are up, their
attrition rate must be horrible (it's a damn good thing they have long
term contracts or it seems to me they wouldn't keep their client base
for more than a few months..). To their credit, the majority of their
systems are usually well installed, which keeps my ongoing service
problems down.

A "good quality system takeover" is more than just a "gift", Bob. The
customers motives for presenting you with this "gift" must be more than
"I want a better rate" though, otherwise he'll be doing the same thing
again (only this time you'll be the one on the "short end").

RHC: Well I can't speak for others, but I have no trouble giving
decent service at low prices without holding a gun (er..long term
contract) to the client's head. My customers are in the drivers seat,
and that's exactly where they ought to be. I've NEVER lost a client
because he went elsewhere for service or lower cost reasons. I suppose
it will happen one day but not yet anyway. Besides, the only people
lower in cost than I am are The Monitoring Centre in Toronto at $10,
and they don't offer in-house warranty or service to their customers.
So if a customer is stupid enough to leave to save $5 a month and give
up his warranty and my included service then so be it ! I would just
write that client off as a bit of a dim bulb and move on......)

It seems to me you already have a long list of things to watch out for.
Good topic!!

RHC: Yeah, I thought it was although it didn't generate much interest
it seems. But thanks for your responses.....oh, well ....back to
sleep....

 

[Robert L Bass]

Three strikes if I can't download the panel. I could care less what brand it is, and how old. I cater mostly to blue collar

workers.

That doesn't really count since you can download *anything*! :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

RHC: Now you seem to be contradicting yourself Frank. I got the

distinct impression from your last post that you felt your company was
above all that. Now you tell me that your company does take over
"nightmare systems" and messed up professional systems. I'm not trying
to be argumentative, but which is it ? And more to the point, why
would you even touch these problem systems ?

He just makes it up as he goes alaong.
It's like the inverted airliner BS story.

 

[tourman]

I know you don't handle the Paradox line, but just as a point of
interest, the older DOS level software for the older line of Esprit
panels works just fine in Windows XP.
The newer Winload software, designed to work with the newer Digiplex
and Spectra panels (and the brand new 5000 and 6000 series of panels)
is designed from the get go as Windows software.

RHC

 

[Jim]

He just makes it up as he goes alaong.
It's like the inverted airliner BS story.

I guess that would be like your story about "Make my Day" on the Napco
keypad and the faking identity to post in Andys website, and how long
you installed systems, and how relatives were kidnapped, and how you
were't forced to stop monitoring services, and you being and expert on
Napco systems and not knowing how the keypad access control worked,
and that you don't steal information from published manuals and say
that you thought of it, and ....... welllll ......
there's not enough room in Usenet for the rest of it.

Get lost and die, you sickly, genetically deficient fuckup.

 

[Jim]

I would like to hear comments from other regular installation
companies on what standards they personally use before "taking over"
alarm systems installed by other companies or individuals. Since I
have been doing far more takeovers lately, AND I am also now "cherry
picking" my clients, I have worked out a rough guide I use called the
"three strikes, you're out" rule ! It gives me something to use other
than my gut instincts. If you can add to it, I would like to hear your
comments. If you disagree with specific points, please tell me / us
why with rationale.

In looking over an installation, if I can assess three strikes against
it, I walk away rather than "take it over" and more often than not
save ending up buying myself a bushel of future trouble.

For example:

One strike if there is no wiring diagram in the can
Two strikes if the connections to the panel board don't leave at least
six inches of spare wire on each zone loop to work with in the future
(this guarantees you can expect trouble with service at the other end
of the loop)
One strike if the EOL connectors are in the can rather than at the end
of the line where they belong (a sure sign of an amateur)
One half strike if the installation was done by someone who only
installs casually, or does it in conjunction with other services such
as video, or home automation in which he specializes
One half strike if the home owner had the installation done by a
friend
One half strike if the installer has used the smallest can possible on
a system that is very expandable
One half strike if the panel can is located such that it cannot be
easily accessed for service.
One half strike if the home is totally finished in the basement AND it
was done by the casual installer above, so wiring errors and drywall
nailing problems are impossible to fix
Three full strikes if it was installed by certain companies which we
all know about in our local areas (in my area, for example, we call
this guy "Jimmy the slease")
One full strike if every point of contact is NOT home run
One full strike if doors are contacted using magnetic contacts on the
heel of the door
Three full strikes if motions are wired in series AND they come back
to the can on one single wire

I am sure there are other points I have missed

RHC

From the looks of the replies you're getting I think I can say that

most people don't actually do enough takeovers, ( as compared to you,
apparently) to actually put it on a score card. I'd guess that most
just look at the quality of the work. Look at the placement and
quality of detectors, and contacts to see if they look amature-ish or
installed by inexperiened installers, splicing and connection methods)
Do detalied questioning about the problems the client has
experiened ..... If there are any potential problem spots, do a
physical inspection and metering test to confirm any major problem,
( Like funky resistance readings) And determine if you can get past
the lockout codes.

Once getting past all that, if .... (and letting the client know up
front), if during the take over, other problems become apparent, bring
them to the attention of the owner and they've got to be fixed at
whatever the cost. If not, THEN unfortunately, you have to walk away.
That's the way I do it.

I wouldnt take the time to set up any kind of "three strikes you're
out" system, because most of my jobs are new large residential, new
construction or for existing clients with only an occasional take over.

 

[Robert L Bass]

I've downloaded lots of Z1100E systems in the past
but not in the last 10 or 15 years. Their software
ran on Windows machines but that was so many
years ago that the only machines old enough to still
be compatible are lying under a pile of used Brinks
stuff in your garage. :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[tourman]

Well, when push comes to shove, I don't really rely on something quite
so concrete as all that. Most of it is gut feel, but....based on some
of these concrete problems I run up against. I've been in this
business far too long to ever go by such hard and fast rules. I posted
that ditty for a couple of reasons...one, to get some of the more
inexperienced installers on the ng into thinking, so maybe they might
see some how some of their own poor practices in that post can cause
grief for clients and other companies. If I had just come out and said
what I really thought..."listen you stupid lazy bastards, learn to
install properly or get the f*** out of our business"....I think that
would have lead to a million negative responses that took the thread
to hell and back. Quoting some of those installation problems can be
useful when I have to explain to a client why I don't want his
monitoring business, and it gives me a way out, when in actual fact, I
don't want his business because I can tell he's a cheapskate who is
likely to give me trouble over every little cost to repair things. But
I can't quite come out and say that can I !!!

Secondly, I wanted to see some technical discussion on the ng like it
used to be in years past, where people could give and take ideas for
the benefit of readers....don't see much of that anymore...(

Dunno if it achieved anything, but what the hell....back to sleep

RHC