Software for a beginner to design and learn about circuits with?

[msv-groups]

Hi,

I'm interested in learning about circuitry as a hobby and to eventually
create a few small projects that I had in mind, such as guitar pedals
and a few audio devices, but obviously I have to start small.

I'm somewhat competent with programming/mathematics, have some text
books, and I do know a -little- analogue+digital circuit theory, but
I've never had a real hands-on attempt by myself before so I'll be
pretty much attacking this as though I know nothing.

Can anyone recommend some software (free or cheap) that would be good
for a beginner to use to learn about circuit behaviour and design some
circuits with? Are there programs out there that actually allow you to
drop in popular microcontrollers and model their behaviour as well?

Thanks,
Matt.

 

[Tim Wescott]

Hi,

I'm interested in learning about circuitry as a hobby and to eventually
create a few small projects that I had in mind, such as guitar pedals
and a few audio devices, but obviously I have to start small.

I'm somewhat competent with programming/mathematics, have some text
books, and I do know a -little- analogue+digital circuit theory, but
I've never had a real hands-on attempt by myself before so I'll be
pretty much attacking this as though I know nothing.

Can anyone recommend some software (free or cheap) that would be good
for a beginner to use to learn about circuit behaviour and design some
circuits with? Are there programs out there that actually allow you to
drop in popular microcontrollers and model their behaviour as well?

Thanks,
Matt.

LTSpice, from Linear Technology is nice, and free. It doesn't have a
wide library of device models -- but it's free.

Modeling microprocessor behavior is more problematic. If you want a
program that'll integrate the microprocessor into an analog circuit
model so you can investigate the interaction of software with the
circuit, you're out of luck. Such programs, if they exist at all, would
cost in the high 10's of kilobucks, if not 100's of kilobucks. Some
processor manufacturer's _do_ have simulations for their processors that
are nice, but they won't interact with an external model.

 

[Mark Jones]

Hi,

I'm interested in learning about circuitry as a hobby and to eventually
create a few small projects that I had in mind, such as guitar pedals
and a few audio devices, but obviously I have to start small.

I'm somewhat competent with programming/mathematics, have some text
books, and I do know a -little- analogue+digital circuit theory, but
I've never had a real hands-on attempt by myself before so I'll be
pretty much attacking this as though I know nothing.

Can anyone recommend some software (free or cheap) that would be good
for a beginner to use to learn about circuit behaviour and design some
circuits with? Are there programs out there that actually allow you to
drop in popular microcontrollers and model their behaviour as well?

Thanks,
Matt.

Hi Matt, there are tons of packages out there. One I remeber
starting with was called Circuit Shop. Their page is
http://www.cherrywoodsystems.com/cshop1.htm . It's cheap, has a demo,
and will definately keep you experimenting into the wee hours of the
morning. There are full-feature packages too which will simulate all
aspects of microcontrollers and tri-state electronics, but they are
not cheap of course. One you might want to look into Proteus VSM from
http://labcenter.co.uk . Any major package has it's own discrete
learning curve, I'd say it would be best to try out as many demos as
you can then stick with the one you like the best (and never look
back.) Switching between EE apps is very difficult.

p.s. nice choice of email client!

-M

 

[Mark Jones]

LTSpice, from Linear Technology is nice, and free. It doesn't have a
wide library of device models -- but it's free.

Modeling microprocessor behavior is more problematic. If you want a
program that'll integrate the microprocessor into an analog circuit
model so you can investigate the interaction of software with the
circuit, you're out of luck. Such programs, if they exist at all, would
cost in the high 10's of kilobucks, if not 100's of kilobucks. Some
processor manufacturer's _do_ have simulations for their processors that
are nice, but they won't interact with an external model.

Hey Tim. Check out the price list for Proteus VSM. It's not super
cheap, but it's way under $10,000 especially if you're a student. Just
today I simulated a PIC16F876 CCP1 in PWM mode --> 4th-order RC filter
network --> buffered DC by an OP193 spice model... true mixed-mode
simulation does exist!

-M

 

[Terry Pinnell]

Can anyone recommend some software (free or cheap) that would be good
for a beginner to use to learn about circuit behaviour and design some
circuits with?

See my notes and links to some 60 ECAD programs at
http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/ECADList.html
several of which include simulation facilities.

Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK

 

[David L. Jones]

Hi,

I'm interested in learning about circuitry as a hobby and to eventually
create a few small projects that I had in mind, such as guitar pedals

and a few audio devices, but obviously I have to start small.

I'm somewhat competent with programming/mathematics, have some text
books, and I do know a -little- analogue+digital circuit theory, but
I've never had a real hands-on attempt by myself before so I'll be
pretty much attacking this as though I know nothing.

Can anyone recommend some software (free or cheap) that would be good

for a beginner to use to learn about circuit behaviour and design some
circuits with? Are there programs out there that actually allow you to
drop in popular microcontrollers and model their behaviour as well?

Thanks,
Matt.

Someones gotta say it... :->

Forget simulation software. The best way to learn is to get yourself
the following:
- A multimeter
- An oscilloscope
- A function generator
- A breadboard
- A bunch of components.

Then build stuff, you'll learn a lot more - really.
You said it yourself, you don't have enough "hands-on" experience.
Software ain't hands-on.

If you *really* want sofwtare, try something purpose designed here:
http://www.emona.com.au/catalogue/Section_23/index.html
I think I have seen them on ebay too.

Forget the "spice" type packages, they are not suitable for beginners.
Regards
Dave

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Hi,

I'm interested in learning about circuitry as a hobby and to
eventually create a few small projects that I had in mind, such as
guitar pedals and a few audio devices, but obviously I have to start
small.
I'm somewhat competent with programming/mathematics, have some text
books, and I do know a -little- analogue+digital circuit theory, but
I've never had a real hands-on attempt by myself before so I'll be
pretty much attacking this as though I know nothing.

Can anyone recommend some software (free or cheap) that would be good
for a beginner to use to learn about circuit behaviour and design some
circuits with?

I will recomend my SuperSpice (http://www.anasoft.co.uk), as the GUI is
very easy to use.

The demo version can actually allow quite large circuits to be built.

Of particlar relevence is that support for the demo is also free, by
someone who also knows a fair bit about music based electonics, hint:
http://www.anasoft.co.uk/founder.html. If your into tubes, it comes with
a full set, even includes humbucking pickup symbols
http://www.anasoft.co.uk/screenshot.html

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Jim Douglas]

I am also a beginner and found CircuitMaker, it's student version is free
and so far been working Ok with the experiments that I do, BTW I do them in
the computer and then build them on the bread board and perform
measurements.

Was wondering why no one recommended CircuitMaker?

 

[Roger Lascelles]

Someones gotta say it... :->

Forget simulation software. The best way to learn is to get yourself
the following:
- A multimeter
- An oscilloscope
- A function generator
- A breadboard
- A bunch of components.

Then build stuff, you'll learn a lot more - really.
You said it yourself, you don't have enough "hands-on" experience.
Software ain't hands-on.

If you *really* want sofwtare, try something purpose designed here:
http://www.emona.com.au/catalogue/Section_23/index.html
I think I have seen them on ebay too.

Forget the "spice" type packages, they are not suitable for beginners.
Regards
Dave

Very true. Understanding comes through the fingers, not just from reading
or software. Electronics will be a dead subject to you if you don't get
stuff working. I have seen this - even in qualified electronics engineers.
Some people wait until they know exactly what they are doing - but they
never get started. The practice and concepts feed on each other.

Step one is go to an electronics shop or tech bookshop and look at the
books, then *buy* some books you feel will get you started. I wouldn't rely
only on internet information - get real books.

Even those "test bench in software" tools with a pretend oscilloscope, power
supply, generator will waste your time.

For a start, you can get going with a multimeter, small power supply and
breadboard. Go to Radio Shack etc and see what is available. The breadboard
you want has a forest of holes 0.1 inch apart for you to poke in component
leads. You can read your books, build, modify and learn. Make lights
flash, speakers beep.

best wishes
Roger

 

[Terry Pinnell]

I am also a beginner and found CircuitMaker, it's student version is free
and so far been working Ok with the experiments that I do, BTW I do them in
the computer and then build them on the bread board and perform
measurements.

Was wondering why no one recommended CircuitMaker?

Patience! In the 5 hours since Matt's post, of the 8 replies so far:
2 recommended against using a simulation package at all
1 recommended LTSpice
1 recommended Proteus VSM,
1 software author recommended (surprise) his own package, and
2 (including me) recommended researching the many programs available.

You were the 8th, recommending CM. I'd echo that, as it's what I use
myself (although I have CM 2000 Pro, with several thousand models
built-in, not the free version).

I'd also reinforce the value of experimental breadboarding and the use
of a 'scope - but nevertheless I sure wish I'd had a simulator when I
started out in the hobby.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Someones gotta say it... :->

Forget simulation software. The best way to learn is to get yourself
the following:
- A multimeter
- An oscilloscope
- A function generator
- A breadboard
- A bunch of components.

Then build stuff, you'll learn a lot more - really.
You said it yourself, you don't have enough "hands-on" experience.
Software ain't hands-on.

If you *really* want sofwtare, try something purpose designed here:
http://www.emona.com.au/catalogue/Section_23/index.html
I think I have seen them on ebay too.

EWB is crap and essentially useless. Its that sort of software that
literally forced me to write my own as I wasn't about to pay several
$1000 for PSpice.

Forget the "spice" type packages, they are not suitable for beginners.
Regards
Dave

I disagree completly. Of course I strongly agree that there is no
substitute for hands on experience. I myself stated with electronic kits
at the age of 11. The real world gets you a feel that is most certainly
missing in simulation software. However...my opinion is that spice is
still a wonderful complement for beginners. It allows essentially, 95%
of the real world to be fully accounted for. There is so much you can
effectively do in spice and not keep blowing up components. The proof of
this is that in pro i.c design some can regularly ship 1st time product
on first past, and these can be very large circuits. *Today*, one
doesn't have to practise in the real world to learn how to do things in
the real world, flight simulators are proof of this.

Most arguments on not using spice are from, the well I didn't start that
way, so it aint goanna be useful. The world has moved on. One needs to
change ones mind set. For me, it would have been great to have had spice
all those years ago.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Bob Stephens]

Do a Google search on "Craig Anderton". Also "PAIA" and "Electronic
Projects for Musicians".

He wrote a couple of books in the '80's presenting interesting music
oriented electronics projects well within the grasp of a casual hobbiest.
Probably a bit dated now, but I'll bet he's still up to something similar.

Screw software. Get your hands dirty.


Bob

 

[John Miles]

You said it yourself, you don't have enough "hands-on" experience.
Software ain't hands-on.
Forget the "spice" type packages, they are not suitable for beginners.
Regards
Dave

I would have agreed with this sentiment before I tried LTSpice. It is,
in the parlance of our times, the shiznit.

LTSpice is certainly no substitute for actual bench work, especially for
a novice, but it can really help you understand *why* something doesn't
work the way you expect. It is one of the most valuable troubleshooting
aids around.

-- jm

 

[Guy Macon]

Very true. Understanding comes through the fingers, not just from reading
or software. Electronics will be a dead subject to you if you don't get
stuff working. I have seen this - even in qualified electronics engineers.
Some people wait until they know exactly what they are doing - but they
never get started. The practice and concepts feed on each other.

Step one is go to an electronics shop or tech bookshop and look at the
books, then *buy* some books you feel will get you started. I wouldn't rely
only on internet information - get real books.

Even those "test bench in software" tools with a pretend oscilloscope, power
supply, generator will waste your time.

For a start, you can get going with a multimeter, small power supply and
breadboard. Go to Radio Shack etc and see what is available. The breadboard
you want has a forest of holes 0.1 inch apart for you to poke in component
leads. You can read your books, build, modify and learn. Make lights
flash, speakers beep.

I agree 100% In particular, run away from the "we put in 10,000
features whether or not anyone needs them" sort of SPICE program.
That would be like learning how to operate a nuclear reactor when
what you really need is a flashlight battery. The time spent
learning the clunky human interface that only a programmer who
holds all lesser mortals in contempt could love is better spent
learning circuits.

Also, there is a great book that you should get. It's called
"The Art of Electronics" (often referred to as "AoE" here).
See http://www.artofelectronics.com/ for details.

 

[Tim Wescott]

Hey Tim. Check out the price list for Proteus VSM. It's not super
cheap, but it's way under $10,000 especially if you're a student. Just
today I simulated a PIC16F876 CCP1 in PWM mode --> 4th-order RC filter
network --> buffered DC by an OP193 spice model... true mixed-mode
simulation does exist!

-M

Well cool. I will have to take a look.

What I really want is something that'll interface a PIC or AVR simulator
with a motion simulator like MatLab/Simulink -- but I understand that
I'm being excessively greedy, and will have to wait a while.

 

[Rich Webb]

I agree 100% In particular, run away from the "we put in 10,000
features whether or not anyone needs them" sort of SPICE program.
That would be like learning how to operate a nuclear reactor when
what you really need is a flashlight battery. The time spent
learning the clunky human interface that only a programmer who
holds all lesser mortals in contempt could love is better spent
learning circuits.

Also, there is a great book that you should get. It's called
"The Art of Electronics" (often referred to as "AoE" here).
See http://www.artofelectronics.com/ for details.

Another vote for AoE here. If the OP only gets one book, that's the one.

On the SPICE issue, my preference is BeigeBag Spice. I've used it for
years; have NOT sampled many of the others, though.
www.beigebag.com/products

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

EWB is crap and essentially useless.

That's about my opinion of EWB, as well.

Jon

 

[msv-groups]

Thanks for the advice everyone, it's all been helpful and hopefully I
will be creating something interesting soon enough.

Matt.

 

[David L. Jones]

EWB is crap and essentially useless. Its that sort of software that
literally forced me to write my own as I wasn't about to pay several
$1000 for PSpice.


I disagree completly. Of course I strongly agree that there is no
substitute for hands on experience. I myself stated with electronic kits
at the age of 11. The real world gets you a feel that is most certainly
missing in simulation software. However...my opinion is that spice is

still a wonderful complement for beginners. It allows essentially, 95%
of the real world to be fully accounted for. There is so much you can

effectively do in spice and not keep blowing up components.

But that's the whole point. When you blow components up, when you wire
something in backwards, when you read the colour code wrong and goof up
a value, when you short something out, when you use your test
instrument incorrectly, when you load down your circuit, when your
opamp oscillates because the leads are too long, when your LED lights
up, when your speaker buzzes, when your relay clicks, when your circuit
doesn't work and you have to actually troubleshoot it - thats when you
actually LEARN!

None of this happens in software, unless you know the traps and
actually program them in! Catch 22?

Beginners need to play with hardware to start out with, not software.
Simulators can come later when you are more advanced and want to play
with the finer details.

I won't disagree that simulators are useful tools, they are great, and
are very useful for intermeadiate to advanced people.

I for one use CircuitMaker 2000 and it's great.

The proof of
this is that in pro i.c design some can regularly ship 1st time product
on first past, and these can be very large circuits.

The relevance to beginners?

*Today*, one
doesn't have to practise in the real world to learn how to do things in
the real world, flight simulators are proof of this.

You would trust your life to a pilot that has zero hours in the actual
air?
I wouldn't!

Most arguments on not using spice are from, the well I didn't start that
way, so it aint goanna be useful. The world has moved on. One needs to
change ones mind set. For me, it would have been great to have had spice
all those years ago.

I'm not arguing that simulators aren't useful, they are. I'm arguing
that a beginner should not use them until they learn the REAL stuff
first.

Regards
Dave

 

[David L. Jones]

I will recomend my SuperSpice (http://www.anasoft.co.uk), as the GUI is
very easy to use.

I have not played with your software, but after looking at the screen
shot here http://www.anasoft.co.uk/screenshot.html I've got to say that
surely you must be kidding!
You would recommend this to a "beginner"???

Look at all those buttons "Sc N I M Ot G Lg D FF P Tx Rr aa ss so PO DD
R G N II ac itf tr fft ff", and what is all that spice stuff in the
Model window?
Geeze, my mind boggles just looking at it all, and I know what it's all
about!

You seriously expect a "beginner" in electronics to digest all that and
know how to use it effectively?, let alone effectively enough to
actually learn useful practical things?

BTW, I'm not bagging your product, so please don't take this as an
insult, I'm sure it's a fine simulator package. I'm just saying that I
wouldn't recommend this to a "beginner" in a blind fit. No doubt though
you'll go tell me to try it... so I'll pre-empt that -P) by saying
the screen is way too "busy" and technical for a beginner.

A few people have bagged Electronics Workbench, but at least it is
designed for the beginner types with it's virtual instruments,
simple/drop interface, and hides the technical stuff like spice
commands etc. At least it was like that when I played with the 16bit
version.

Actually I like the look of the "Electronics tutorial" CDs that I
posted a link to before. They seem to show photos of real components,
how to indentify them, and then lets you simulate building basic blocks
etc. Anyone actually tried it?

I don't think anyone has actually touch on one very important aspect of
actually building stuff instead of using simulators. It's FUN! and
actually holds your interest and makes you want to learn more.
Simulators don't do that, at least for me and every other practical
engineer I know.

Regards