Smartmeter: Anyone knows how to get detailed info on them?

[Joerg]

Hello,

Many of you will soon be in the same boat. Our utility has informed us
that we and the whole town will get the dreaded smartmeters. Whether we
want that or not. Obviously they have serious issues and as usual the
utility is stone-walling:

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14963541

Having seen all the grief caused by, ahem, sub-optimal electronics
design in cars I am not all that surprised. Does anyone know where to
find some serious data on this problem? Or maybe even schematics & board
layouts of those things?

BTW, we used to have a meter with LCD readout and all until years ago.
It eventually failed, maybe because it gets hit by the full morning sun.
The utility replaced it with, tada, a classic mechanical meter. Probably
because those simply work ...

 

[Joerg]

Relax, Joerg, Your cost of electricity WILL go up, WITHOUT a rate
increase.

You can't fight it, just bend over and brace yourself, and hope that
will make it less painful

But I don't want it to explode by 1000% just because some design
engineer screwed up. Well, I guess if it does it'll be time to get
enough others together and call Erin Brokovich

 

[Joerg]

If you dig in www.heise.de, some time ago there was a link to a hack for those meters.

Yours look very different from ours:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Energie-sparen-mit-dem-Stromzaehler-202105.html

This is how ours look like:
http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/SmartMeter.jpg

Else google: toorcon11-wright.pdf
As a starting ppoint.

When I do that it looks like hacker links.

WHY DO YOU WANT TO HACK IT?

Where did I say that I want to hack it? I don't. I just want to know
what's in there.

 

[Joerg]

Find out which makes and models they're using and post that info here
and maybe on alt.engineering.electrical (and maybe
misc.industry.utilities.electric if that group hasn't died of neglect
yet).

I'll have to wait until they reach our house. Others have them already
and they look similar to this one:

http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/SmartMeter.jpg

You might have a hybrid meter there. That would be a classic
electromechanical device with dial readouts and all, but also a pulse
counter/processor/communications module. This counts and stores the
metering disk revolutions and periodically is interrogated by a wireless
network*. I've got one (and a similar gas meter). If the remote reading
stuff goes TU, they can send a meter reader out to check the mechanical
dials.

If it has a pulse counter then that may be what they screwed up. But
let's see when we get it.

*In some cases (rural areas), the utility doesn't bother with installing
a wireless network. They just send someone out with a van equipped with
the r.f. reading equipment once a month. It pulls the data as it drives
by, saving the meter reader from having to get out of the vehicle and
get chased by dogs.

That sounds similar to how our first meter was but someone had to come
pretty close with a reading wand. Clear plastic cover so you could peek
in. When I saw an LCD and <gasp> electrolytic caps in there I wondered
how that would survive in the glistening morning sun out here. Long
story short, it didn't survive ...

The water meter is now equipped with a mushroom RF thingie and can be
reading from the street. But that's below a concrete cover so not being
pelted with sunlight.

 

[Nico Coesel]

Hello,

Many of you will soon be in the same boat. Our utility has informed us
that we and the whole town will get the dreaded smartmeters. Whether we
want that or not. Obviously they have serious issues and as usual the
utility is stone-walling:

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14963541

Having seen all the grief caused by, ahem, sub-optimal electronics
design in cars I am not all that surprised. Does anyone know where to
find some serious data on this problem? Or maybe even schematics & board
layouts of those things?

We're electronics engineers. Sure we can come up with a scheme to get
electricity for free...

 

[Joerg]

I would expect data storage in NVRAM... don't you think? Otherwise
the exposure to suits from angry customers would be overwhelming.

It looks like the exposure is already sort of there. Even the state
government got involved now and there was lots of egg in the faces on
the news yesterday night.

 

[D Yuniskis]

It's kinda surprising that, as a public utility company, they don't take
a more customer-friendly approach along the lines of, "we're going to
install the new Smart Meter side-by-side with the old mechanical analog
ones in 1,000 volunteer test homes to demonstrate they're accurate," and
put all the data on-line, log all the problems that are reported (and
their resolutions), etc. -- seems like they'd get a lot more public
support that way...

Why would they have to do that? :> They've "proven" to the
regulatory agencies that their meters "accurately" measure the
product that they "sell" -- electricity. They are under no
obligation to prove it to *you* (especially when doing so will
be costly).

Adding a second meter (series) to an existing home/business
is a costly expense. OTOH, popping out the old meter and
replacing it with a new "drop in replacement" is a 1 minute
service interruption.

First, figure out who *owns* the meter (customer or utility).
That will go a long way in terms of telling you what you
can *remotely* expect your "rights" to be. :>

(e.g., the water department, natural gas, etc. all routinely
replace meters without having to do a publicity campaign
ahead of time).

This way it is just sounds like, "we're doing what we want to, and
you're all pretty much just wrong to question the accuracy, so just
leave us alone and keep paying those bills we send you!"

Most of the designs I have seen for ToU meters are considerably
more accurate than the mechanical beasts -- "on the bench".
Time will tell how they fare in the long haul (meters are
designed with a lifetime of 30+ years and DM+DL of ~$25).

Some are little more than optointerrupters watching the disk
spin. Others actually look at the line and integrate V*I
(as well as recording peak e.g., for commercial users)

I was looking forward to going on the ToU tariff, here, when
it was announced (optional) as much of our electricity
consumption is "off peak" (working overnight). But, they
built the tariff in such a lopsided way that damn near
*no one* can save money on it. So, what's the incentive
to shift load? Wait for utility to need to build another
power plant or more transmission lines *then* they'll have
an incentive!

As to Joerg's original question: you might poke around the
EPRI web site (no idea if it is open to the public, though).

 

[Joerg]

Why would they have to do that? :> They've "proven" to the
regulatory agencies that their meters "accurately" measure ...

That remains to be seen and could become part of a state government
investigation. Or hopefully will.

... the
product that they "sell" -- electricity. They are under no
obligation to prove it to *you* (especially when doing so will
be costly).

In Bakersfield that obligation will now be determined by a court of law.
Could get ugly.

Adding a second meter (series) to an existing home/business
is a costly expense. OTOH, popping out the old meter and
replacing it with a new "drop in replacement" is a 1 minute
service interruption.

First, figure out who *owns* the meter (customer or utility).
That will go a long way in terms of telling you what you
can *remotely* expect your "rights" to be. :>

That is why I am against monopolies. They tend to lead to this sort of
problem.

(e.g., the water department, natural gas, etc. all routinely
replace meters without having to do a publicity campaign
ahead of time).

Because theirs work, there's FOIA, and there's voting.

Most of the designs I have seen for ToU meters are considerably
more accurate than the mechanical beasts -- "on the bench".
Time will tell how they fare in the long haul (meters are
designed with a lifetime of 30+ years and DM+DL of ~$25).

"On the bench" nearly everything works. This is a chunk of my bread and
butter job, designs that worked nicely in the lab and then once in the
field things hit the fan.

Some are little more than optointerrupters watching the disk
spin. Others actually look at the line and integrate V*I
(as well as recording peak e.g., for commercial users)

I was looking forward to going on the ToU tariff, here, when
it was announced (optional) as much of our electricity
consumption is "off peak" (working overnight). But, they
built the tariff in such a lopsided way that damn near
*no one* can save money on it. So, what's the incentive
to shift load? Wait for utility to need to build another
power plant or more transmission lines *then* they'll have
an incentive!

Same here :-(

As to Joerg's original question: you might poke around the
EPRI web site (no idea if it is open to the public, though).

I had tried that. Their search engine doesn't work well. If you key in
smartmeter or "smart meter" there's a bazillion hits containing lots of
document unrelated to the topic. Why can't IT folks learn from Digikey
how to do it right? Although they did seem to have screwed up the order
entry lately.

 

[D Yuniskis]

Hi Paul,

I can make out "Landis + Gyr" but no model numbers. A search of
"SmartMeter" on their site only returns articles containing the generic
phrase rather than a particular product line. I'd guess that
"SmartMeter" is probably a PG&E "brand".

The unit appears to be a fully electronic unit (no induction disk
pickup). These measure the I and V and calculate the power numerically.
Fancy things can be done with such meters, such as sampling fast enough
to measure and characterize motor starting. Which can allow them to
detect the number of times your fridge or a/c unit come on each day.

Usually, they are more interested in you letting them *control*
some of those loads (most significantly, the ACbrrr -- unless you
are one of those unfortunate few with a 100% electric house in
which case they also want the switch on your heat-pump or
radiant heat).

The advantage of electronic meters is primarily that of moving
to ToU tariffs and getting consumers to shift their loads.
Meter reading is a *minor* benefit (costs ~50c to read a meter
"manually"). For years, the electric utilities were hoping
to get a special tariff from Ma Bell so they could add
instrumentation to the meter (and not have to store stuff
in it, etc.) but Ma Bell never wanted to give them a free ride.
Previous technologies to get at the end user were expensive
(e.g., PLC works but *only* to the next high tension Xformer
which then has to be bridged, etc.).

Now, communications are cheap *and* you can store a lot *in* the
meter *and* you don't need to use a lot of power doing so.
This makes it considerably easier to come up with meters
with *long* service lifes and low costs.

But if the processor goes brain dead, there goes the accumulated energy
data.

No, they pull the meter, recover what's "lost" inside and
bill you as if nothing extraordinary had happened. But, it
is expensive to do this as you have to send someone *to*
the user (can't just tell the user, "When the guy from
UPS shows up with a package from us, take the replacement
meter out of the box, swap it for the one that is currently
plugged into your house and return the old one to us in the
box that the nice UPS man is holding...")

 

[D Yuniskis]

Hi Joerg,

This is how ours look like:
http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/SmartMeter.jpg

Try:

http://www.landisgyr.com/na/apps/products/data/pdf1/FOCUS_AL_ProductSheet_W.pdf

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,


Try:

http://www.landisgyr.com/na/apps/products/data/pdf1/FOCUS_AL_ProductSheet_W.pdf

Thanks. Not too much meat in there, except two rather scary remarks,
quote: "solid-state meter platform" and "Digital Multiplication
Measurement Technique".

That can spell trouble if not designed right.

 

[[email protected]]

I can hear Ernestine now: "you can't talk to me that way, sir, I am with
the _Power_ company!!" Tikki tikki tap (lights go out).

"We don't care. We don't have to. We're the Power Company."

 

[sj]

Hello,

Many of you will soon be in the same boat. Our utility has informed us
that we and the whole town will get the dreaded smartmeters. Whether we
want that or not. Obviously they have serious issues and as usual the
utility is stone-walling:

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14963541

Having seen all the grief caused by, ahem, sub-optimal electronics
design in cars I am not all that surprised. Does anyone know where to
find some serious data on this problem? Or maybe even schematics & board
layouts of those things?

I'm in San Jose. I got the new meter about a month ago, so don't have
any feel yet for how it compares to the old one. Other neighborhoods got
them much earlier. I haven't heard anything from people I know, just the
media stories. I can show you what the PG&E Smart Meter looks like,
though.

Here's a link to a zip containing 4 pics of the meter face...
http://www.xertech.net/pub/SmartMeter.zip

The LCD display cycles through several formats every few seconds. The
two 'meter' pics show two of those displays. I was trying to get better
pictures of the various display formats, but it started raining, so I
ran for cover. The two label pics may have information to lead to more
information (FCC ID, for instance) but I haven't tried searching yet.

I assume this is the same one you will get. The cylindrical case is not
transparent on the sides, but I would doubt there is anything mechanical
in there (like a spining disk).

I'm interested too. Post if you find more information.

 

[Joerg]

I'm in San Jose. I got the new meter about a month ago, so don't have
any feel yet for how it compares to the old one. Other neighborhoods got
them much earlier. I haven't heard anything from people I know, just the
media stories. I can show you what the PG&E Smart Meter looks like,
though.

Here's a link to a zip containing 4 pics of the meter face...
http://www.xertech.net/pub/SmartMeter.zip

The Meter2 picture shows all eights in the display, and it looks like
the lower 2/3rds of the LCD display is a bit dimmer.

That's what our previous digital meter did and then it croaked ;-)

The LCD display cycles through several formats every few seconds. The
two 'meter' pics show two of those displays. I was trying to get better
pictures of the various display formats, but it started raining, so I
ran for cover. The two label pics may have information to lead to more
information (FCC ID, for instance) but I haven't tried searching yet.

Thanks, yes, that could help. Although there will generally be no "meat"
in the filing papers, no items such as schematics.

I assume this is the same one you will get. The cylindrical case is not
transparent on the sides, but I would doubt there is anything mechanical
in there (like a spining disk).

I'm interested too. Post if you find more information.

Yes, I will.

 

[tm]

consider what Comrade Obama wants to do with coal-fueled electric
power,which is ~50% of US electric supply;Cap-n-Trade would dramatically
raise electric rates.(he's SAID he wants to bankrupt the coal industry..)

then consider that Comrade Obama -says- he supports nuclear power...as
long
as there's safe storage for the wastes...then turns around and kills Yucca
Mountain Repository and insitutes a NEW site search that will take many
years to complete,so actual construction of a safe storage site will be a
couple of DECADES away,and nuclear plants will not go forward.
So,Comrade Obama has effectively BLOCKED new nuclear plants.
Solar and wind will NOT make up the difference,nor will biofuels.

End result is much higher electric rates,brownouts and blackouts,and/or a
lowering of lifestyles.Industry will suffer,jobs will suffer.
It also fits right in with his desire for high gasoline prices.
(the lowering of your lifestyle)
Our economy is closely tied to energy prices.

That's Comrade Obama's "social justice".
He's out to drag us all down to the "poor's" level.

Saw a good bumper sticker today.

Obamanomics: Trickle up Poverty

 

[Joerg]

I'm vindictive. I think VAT and Cap & Trade are just what the
"faithful" deserve.

I think we (those of us on the productive end of the stick) will
prevail. If not, I have my escape plan. I would suggest everyone
else develop the same.

Just remember, past a certain age (which you have exceeded ...) NZ
requires immigrants to bring a major amount of money into the country.
Probably so they have some assurance that the new folks won't plop into
the welfare/health system.

How's the gnat problem coming?

 

[D Yuniskis]

Hi Joerg,

Thanks. Not too much meat in there, except two rather scary remarks,

I was just hoping it might get a confirmation of "yes, that is
the meter" -- from which, you can dig deeper.

quote: "solid-state meter platform" and "Digital Multiplication
Measurement Technique".

There aren't a helluvalot of different ways to go about
doing this.

One is to concurrently (potential source of error) "digitize" I & V
and "multiply and accumulate". (note, the design may reduce this
to one multiply per cycle :< )

Another is to implement a 4Q (?) analog multiplier and sample
(and accumulate) the result.

I worked on a meter design that used synchronous VtoF converters
to do the sampling and multiplication. Then, just "count" the
result. (i.e., the whole DAS can be then be shrunk/integrated)

The *real* problem is meeting environmental tolerances as
well as cost and MTBF. The rest is a "high school" project.

That can spell trouble if not designed right.

Yup. I think with today's loads, it's real easy to make
assumptions that can lean one way or the other in terms of
favoring the consumer or the producer. :<

It's amazing that old "mechanical" meters were able to get the
accuracies htey could over the operating ranges!

 

[D Yuniskis]

I'm in San Jose. I got the new meter about a month ago, so don't have
any feel yet for how it compares to the old one. Other neighborhoods got
them much earlier. I haven't heard anything from people I know, just the
media stories. I can show you what the PG&E Smart Meter looks like,
though.

Here's a link to a zip containing 4 pics of the meter face...
http://www.xertech.net/pub/SmartMeter.zip

The LCD display cycles through several formats every few seconds. The

The meter can be "configured" (there is usually an "opto-isolated
configuration port" on the front of the glass jar) to display any
of a variety of parameters measured by the meter.

Some meters will track peak usage (per billing period -- which
can be a 10 minute interval), total usage, etc. Usually, there
is a two digit (?) display that indicates which "parameter"
is being displayed (to the left of the value itself)

two 'meter' pics show two of those displays. I was trying to get better
pictures of the various display formats, but it started raining, so I
ran for cover. The two label pics may have information to lead to more
information (FCC ID, for instance) but I haven't tried searching yet.

I assume this is the same one you will get. The cylindrical case is not
transparent on the sides, but I would doubt there is anything mechanical
in there (like a spining disk).

Some meters may have large *relays* inside (i.e., to allow the
utility to disconnect your service completely without removing
the meter).

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,


I was just hoping it might get a confirmation of "yes, that is
the meter" -- from which, you can dig deeper.


There aren't a helluvalot of different ways to go about
doing this.

One is to concurrently (potential source of error) "digitize" I & V
and "multiply and accumulate". (note, the design may reduce this
to one multiply per cycle :< )

Another is to implement a 4Q (?) analog multiplier and sample
(and accumulate) the result.

I worked on a meter design that used synchronous VtoF converters
to do the sampling and multiplication. Then, just "count" the
result. (i.e., the whole DAS can be then be shrunk/integrated)

There are some nice application examples from TI around the MSP430F4xxx
series where some of these uC are geared towards metering. For some
reason I could only get it from TI's Chinese site:

http://focus.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/an/slaa409a/slaa409a.pdf

The *real* problem is meeting environmental tolerances as
well as cost and MTBF. The rest is a "high school" project.

That's just the thing, it isn't a high school project. There are so many
error interlocks that have to function. For example, what if someone
stands right next to the meter texting on a GSM phone? The EMI issues
from those are quite serious. Same with ham radio gear and so on.

I had to unearth a lot of unwanted rectification effects that caused
distorted measurements. "I think someone is in the stairway with a
BlackBerry or AT&T phone right now" ... "Come on, let's remain serious
here" ... "Seriously, go take a look" ... goes to door, peeks outside
.... "S..t, you are right! You mean, that's causing it?"

Yup. I think with today's loads, it's real easy to make
assumptions that can lean one way or the other in terms of
favoring the consumer or the producer. :<

It's amazing that old "mechanical" meters were able to get the
accuracies htey could over the operating ranges!

They were designed by the old guard

Look at scopes. Some of the "modern" budget scopes are a real pity when
compared to the budget scopes of the 70's or 80's. To the point where
they usefulness in practice is questionable.

 

[D Yuniskis]

Hi Joerg,

There are some nice application examples from TI around the MSP430F4xxx
series where some of these uC are geared towards metering. For some
reason I could only get it from TI's Chinese site:

http://focus.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/an/slaa409a/slaa409a.pdf

Yeah, but these didn't exist 25 years ago. :>

That's just the thing, it isn't a high school project. There are so many

I meant the data collection aspects. ToU and Demand are a few
lines of code...

error interlocks that have to function. For example, what if someone
stands right next to the meter texting on a GSM phone? The EMI issues
from those are quite serious. Same with ham radio gear and so on.

Yup. Try designing for the gaming industry! :> There, the
"interference" is calculated, deliberate and considerably more
that "typical" (e.g., folks sticking antennae *up* the payout
chutes)

I had to unearth a lot of unwanted rectification effects that caused
distorted measurements. "I think someone is in the stairway with a
BlackBerry or AT&T phone right now" ... "Come on, let's remain serious
here" ... "Seriously, go take a look" ... goes to door, peeks outside
.... "S..t, you are right! You mean, that's causing it?"


They were designed by the old guard

Yup. Though much of it really is "common sense" -- once someone
*else* explains it to you! :>