Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

[terryc]

Any recommendations?

 

[Sylvia Else]

Any recommendations?

Yes. Don't do it. It's a huge waste of money.

Sylvia.

 

[David L. Jones]

Yes. Don't do it. It's a huge waste of money.

Not to someone who wants it.
I'm sure Terry is aware of the cost/payback implications. There are many
reasons why people get PV installations.
No different to anything else really.

Dave.

 

[K Ludger]

Not to someone who wants it.
I'm sure Terry is aware of the cost/payback implications. There are many
reasons why people get PV installations.
No different to anything else really.

Dave.

I'll second that. There are lots of motivations even including doing it for
enjoyment!

 

[Sylvia Else]

Not to someone who wants it.
I'm sure Terry is aware of the cost/payback implications. There are many
reasons why people get PV installations.
No different to anything else really.

Dave.

It doesn't just cost him money. It costs me money. He'll use the PV
cells to reduce his power demand when then sun is shining, and use grid
supplied electricity when it's not. This reduces the overall utilisation
of the grid and the generators attached to it, which pushes up the cost
of the electricity that it delivers. As a consumer of that electricity,
I have to pay more as a result.

Sylvia.

 

[David L. Jones]

It doesn't just cost him money. It costs me money. He'll use the PV cells
to reduce his power demand when then sun is shining, and use grid supplied
electricity when it's not. This reduces the overall utilisation of the
grid and the generators attached to it, which pushes up the cost of the
electricity that it delivers. As a consumer of that electricity, I have to
pay more as a result.

That's a very narrow minded view indeed.

Do you realise it may also help you?
You complained the other week that you needed a generator because of the
"parlous" state of the power system in Australia (and in Sydney where you
live). By Terry installing a solar system that might just help make the
power system less "parlous", and it might even SAVE you money by you not
having to buy that back up generator after all. You should be thanking him
for installing one.

Dave.

 

[Sylvia Else]

That's a very narrow minded view indeed.

Do you realise it may also help you?
You complained the other week that you needed a generator because of the
"parlous" state of the power system in Australia (and in Sydney where you
live). By Terry installing a solar system that might just help make the
power system less "parlous", and it might even SAVE you money by you not
having to buy that back up generator after all. You should be thanking him
for installing one.

I think it unlikely that his installation of PV cells would impact on my
decision to install a generator. I doubt I would ever be able to
determine whether he'd actually improved the reliability of my supply.

By contrast, the impact his installation has on electricity pricing is
quite direct.

Sylvia.

 

[Davo]

It doesn't just cost him money. It costs me money. He'll use the PV
cells to reduce his power demand when then sun is shining, and use grid
supplied electricity when it's not. This reduces the overall utilisation
of the grid and the generators attached to it, which pushes up the cost
of the electricity that it delivers. As a consumer of that electricity,
I have to pay more as a result.

Sylvia.

It saves you money because in summer when loads are at their highest
running air conditioners, power is very expensive because peaking
generators are used, these are only used a few days a year and usually
run on very expensive diesel. Solar systems are ideal for reducing peak
loads in hot weather. Base load power generation is cheap, building and
running plant that might only be used a few days a year is extremely
expensive. Also, demand for power is highest during the day when solar
systems are most productive.

 

[cth]

I think it unlikely that his installation of PV cells would impact on my
decision to install a generator. I doubt I would ever be able to
determine whether he'd actually improved the reliability of my supply.

By contrast, the impact his installation has on electricity pricing is
quite direct.

Sylvia.

Your analysis of why the cost goes up to grid consumers is a pretty long
bow to draw.

If the grid is utilised less (on a reasonable scale), then one of two
things are likely:

1. There'll be surplus power and generally anything surplus gets cheaper or

2. Less fuel is consumed by the power stations reducing their running
costs, and thus a potential saving is there to be be passed on. Whether
the pass-on occurs or not, of course is debatable. More fool us to buy
from a rip-off supplier if they don't pass on savings.

Of course the electricity distribution & associated cost-disbursement
system in this country is far too complicated for such simple
generalised analyses...

Chris.

 

[Sylvia Else]

It saves you money because in summer when loads are at their highest
running air conditioners, power is very expensive because peaking
generators are used, these are only used a few days a year and usually
run on very expensive diesel. Solar systems are ideal for reducing peak
loads in hot weather. Base load power generation is cheap, building and
running plant that might only be used a few days a year is extremely
expensive. Also, demand for power is highest during the day when solar
systems are most productive.

I don't think that works out. We can get very hot weather even with haze
that reduces the effectiveness of solar panels.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Your analysis of why the cost goes up to grid consumers is a pretty long
bow to draw.

If the grid is utilised less (on a reasonable scale), then one of two
things are likely:

1. There'll be surplus power and generally anything surplus gets cheaper or

That's a short term effect. In the longer term the generating capacity
will adjust to meet demand.

2. Less fuel is consumed by the power stations reducing their running
costs, and thus a potential saving is there to be be passed on. Whether
the pass-on occurs or not, of course is debatable. More fool us to buy
from a rip-off supplier if they don't pass on savings.

Fuel is not the only cost in the production of electricity. Capital is a
major cost. The equipment has to be there whether or not it's in use,
and the capital costs have to be shared amongst the users.

A person who installs solar cells is essentially using the grid as a
free backup, and their demand on the grid will be more variable, and
less predictable, than the demand of someone without solar cells. In a
truely transparent market, a person would have to pay a premium to be
allowed to buy power on the basis that they may not buy any, but are
guaranteed to be able to buy whatever amount they want whenever they
want to.

Sylvia.

 

[terryc]

Not to someone who wants it.
I'm sure Terry is aware of the cost/payback implications.

That is part of what I want to investigate further. Given that electricty
prices are taking off and a feeling that interest rates are going to stay
low for a while, this might be the best time to "invest"

There are many reasons why people get PV installations.

Yep.

 

[terryc]

It doesn't just cost him money. It costs me money. He'll use the PV
cells to reduce his power demand when then sun is shining, and use grid
supplied electricity when it's not. This reduces the overall utilisation
of the grid and the generators attached to it, which pushes up the cost
of the electricity that it delivers. As a consumer of that electricity,
I have to pay more as a result.

Err, those monstrous power stations are spinning anyway 24x7. What I can
not work out is why I can not battery bank off peak electricty.

Second, even if 10K people did it, I doubt if they will have any effect
like the 10%, 20%, 305 electricty price hikes bouncing around.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Err, those monstrous power stations are spinning anyway 24x7. What I can
not work out is why I can not battery bank off peak electricty.

The ones that are running 24x7 (which usually run on coal) are doing so
to supply the baseload - it's not as if there's power going spare. Other
power stations, which typically run on natural gas, or are hydro
stations, only run for part of the time, to meet higher loads.

However, there's nothing to stop you battery banking off peak - if you
can find an economic way of doing it. However, even running the numbers
on the back of an envelope will quickly show that it's not just
uneconomic - it's hugely uneconomic.

Second, even if 10K people did it, I doubt if they will have any effect
like the 10%, 20%, 305 electricty price hikes bouncing around.

No, they probably wouldn't. But any effect they do have is in addition
to the price rises we're getting.

Sylvia.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

That is part of what I want to investigate further. Given that electricty
prices are taking off and a feeling that interest rates are going to stay
low for a while, this might be the best time to "invest"

**Not IMO. The best time to invest will be later, when one of several things
occur:

* The cost of PV cells (amorphous) will plummet when supply comes remotely
close to meeting demand. Figure on a 90% reduction in PV cell costs within
20 years. Maybe as little as 10. It's hard to say, since as prices fall,
demand will rise.
* The 'feed-in' tarif in your location will play a part. In NSW, right now,
it's not a smart idea. In Germany, it is.
* As mounting hardware becomes more standardised and more easily available,
costs will fall.
* As more guys become installers, competition will forces costs down.

All this needs to be balanced against rising electricity costs, of course.

Yep.

**Indeed. Some do it, because they feel that they are making a difference.

 

[David L. Jones]

**Not IMO. The best time to invest will be later, when one of several
things occur:

* The cost of PV cells (amorphous) will plummet when supply comes remotely
close to meeting demand. Figure on a 90% reduction in PV cell costs within
20 years. Maybe as little as 10. It's hard to say, since as prices fall,
demand will rise.
* The 'feed-in' tarif in your location will play a part. In NSW, right
now, it's not a smart idea. In Germany, it is.

That is proposed to be changed in June to a very attactive feed-in rate
(IIRC, 5 times), as mentioned in a recent thread.
Also, the solar rebate will no longer be means tested after that date. It is
currently means tested, and any household over (IIRC) $100K income gets
nothing back.
Both are excellent moves.

But if you care about the "carbon" point of view, then come June you will be
subsidising the big polluters, as your quota of solar energy will be counted
in the mandatory targets. This is a really really bad move.

Dave..

 

[MisterE]

Yes. Don't do it. It's a huge waste of money.

There are a few niches where it works.
For example a 1kilowatt system can be had fully installed for less than
$4,000 after goverment rebates. With the 25 year warranty it should just
about break even at this point.

Also QLD you can sell back excess power for 44c/kwhour, about 3 times what
it costs to buy, so you will also save some on your power bill. I was about
to get one installed because it worked out marginally cheaper for me, but
they moved the $8,000 to families that earn under $100k.

 

[MisterE]

That is part of what I want to investigate further. Given that electricty
prices are taking off and a feeling that interest rates are going to stay
low for a while, this might be the best time to "invest"

Indeed its becoming 'not so bad'.
You can get PV installed for about $12,000 per kilowatt. For each kilowatt
you will draw typically about 3200kwhours per year, if they last 20 years
(and there are no maintainance costs for inverters etc) then it would be an
ok investment as long as power was costing at least 12000/(3200*20) = 18.75.
Of course with the $8k rebate and selling excess power to the grid at 44c
per kilowatt it *should* be possible to make money. But tell that to all the
people who are spending $1000 per year replacing inverters etc... I don't
know of anyone who has PV who hasn't had enless inverter troubles. I think
the constant temp cycling while going from 0 load at night to full several
kilowatt load is just to much for them and I haven't seen any that are
reliable enough that the manufacturer will give 5-10 year warranties, which
is what you really want.

 

[MisterE]

**Not IMO. The best time to invest will be later, when one of several
things
occur:

* The cost of PV cells (amorphous) will plummet when supply comes remotely
close to meeting demand. Figure on a 90% reduction in PV cell costs within
20 years. Maybe as little as 10. It's hard to say, since as prices fall,
demand will rise.
* The 'feed-in' tarif in your location will play a part. In NSW, right
now, it's not a smart idea. In Germany, it is.
* As mounting hardware becomes more standardised and more easily
available, costs will fall.
* As more guys become installers, competition will forces costs down.

All this needs to be balanced against rising electricity costs, of course.

Of course we will eventually reach the point where excess power from PV's
will be worthless to the grid, as there will be no demand during the day,
and heaps of demand during the night. Then we will see everyone switching
from non-battery to battery (at the moment if you have batteries you may not
sell back to the grid, so no one does it).

I advise people to stay away from pv as the most they can save is there
power bill, which simply isn't worth the risk of outlayings many many
thousands of dollars.

 

[Sylvia Else]

There are a few niches where it works.
For example a 1kilowatt system can be had fully installed for less than
$4,000 after goverment rebates. With the 25 year warranty it should just
about break even at this point.

Well, even there it remains a huge waste of money - just that the money
being wasted is the taxpayer's.

Also QLD you can sell back excess power for 44c/kwhour, about 3 times what
it costs to buy, so you will also save some on your power bill. I was about
to get one installed because it worked out marginally cheaper for me, but
they moved the $8,000 to families that earn under $100k.

I can't imagine why QLD power utilities are required to pay so much for
it, other than political stupidity.

Sylvia.