Installers in Kentucky beware of HB-41

[RockyTSquirrel]

you are correct not a kbfaa member, I got better uses for my money..

however on the board members, if you'll check out the def. of a "personal
emergency rersponse system", it seems to mean any alarm installer/system,
except those with no remote report ie.. CCTV but even that's in question
if its web connected..

 

[Frank Olson]

If you can find a copy of the bill look in section 4 para. 4,
"only retail stores or catalog sales NOT offering installations or
CONSULTING SERVICES are exempt from the requirement.."
its in black and white..

Robert doesn't "consult". He "advises". ;-)

 

[Bob Worthy]

Wrong (as usual). Some states regulate the sales people too. BC
springs to mind. Your own state (Florida) does too.

The Statute, at one time, stated "on site" sales. The "on site" was deleted
by the legislature and now includes phone sales.

I've been called in to "fix" a lot of DIY jobs. The potential "cost
savings" could very well turn into a huge liability if you drill in the
wrong place or improperly install the equipment.

It is no secret that Florida is heavily regulated. Now, the Florida Police
Chiefs Association has unaminiouly past the adoption of a statewide model
ordinance (approx. 485 muni's) which includes registration by the user
whether it is monitored or not. If it is monitored, it must be monitored by
a State licensed company. The DIY market is going to be included in the next
rewrite by default. Right now, the first thought on the committee's mind is
in order to register the alarm, it must be inspected by an electrical
inspector first and checked by a state licensed contractor. I invision a new
market for companies to just do inspections somewhat like home inspection
companies for the insurance industry. This isn't necessarily pointed at DIY
but at systems that are in use that are not associated with a licensed
company. DIY just happens to fall into that category.

Bob W.

 

[Robert L Bass]

Can you say UL. I knew that you could.

Another independent organization trying to get themselves legislated into a
state of monopoly power and control.

UL isn't even truly independent. Know what that "U" stands for?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

If you can find a copy of the bill look in section 4 para. 4,
"only retail stores or catalog sales NOT offering installations or
CONSULTING SERVICES are exempt from the requirement.."
its in black and white..

The problem is you don't understand what "consulting services" means under the
law.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

... but only an approved person can give advise as to what to buy or how
Wrong. Anyone can give free advice. If you offer consulting services for
hire, you need a license. Otherwise, every RatShak, Home Depot and Loews
employee would be subject to licensing.

The Statute, at one time, stated "on site" sales. The "on site" was deleted
by the legislature and now includes phone sales.

Florida still does not require licenses of online or "brick and mortar" stores
selling alarm systems. Salesmen working for companies that provide
installation and/or monitoring are required to be licensed. Worthy knows
this.

If it is monitored, it must be monitored by a State licensed company...

.... unless the company is not located in Florida.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[G. Morgan]

I should have mentioned that only people capable of holding a job should
undertake installing an alarm. All others need not apply.

I'm sure that is on your checklist for pre-qualifying potential DIY'er's.

 

[Frank Olson]

Wrong. Anyone can give free advice. If you offer consulting services
for hire, you need a license.

Now let me get this straight. If you're employed by an alarm company as
a salesman, then you have to be licensed. A customer calls to obtain
information (or a quotation for an install) and the alarm company
dispatches a salesman. The salesman designs a system based on the
customer's needs (provides consulting service), but doesn't charge the
customer for the service. You could say it's "included" in the price of
the equipment the customer agrees to purchase. More often the not, that
same consumer is basing a decision on a number of (usually three)
onsultations. I don't see your logic. How is what you do any different
from what Bob Worthy's company does? The only thing that's different is
that you work from home and "sell" over the phone. You still "review"
plans, layout and design systems based on the customer's needs (at least
that's what you've said). In my view, Florida should be taking a hard
look at your activities (particularly in respect of any dealings you
might have with Florida residents).

Otherwise, every RatShak, Home Depot and
Loews employee would be subject to licensing.

Agreed. They (and you) should be subject to licensing. I don't believe
a consumer is the least bit served by individuals that try to sell
something that they have no formal training in or direct knowledge of.
I also don't think that the security wholesalers in Florida should be
dealing with unlicensed individuals (or companies).

Florida still does not require licenses of online or "brick and mortar"
stores selling alarm systems. Salesmen working for companies that
provide installation and/or monitoring are required to be licensed.
Worthy knows this.

It seems to be a matter of interpretation and I certainly wouldn't rely
on *anything* _you_ "interpret" as "fact".

... unless the company is not located in Florida.

We'll see how that plays out in the next few months, eh?

 

[motley me]

That's not correct. Anyone can give free advice, even a salesman.
For example, most alarm salesmen working for medium to large companies
aren't licensed technicians. They're given very basic training in
what their particular alarm company likes to sell and then they go out
and design "professionally" installed systems. This is in fact a
frequent topic in this newsgroup -- salesmen who don't know how to
design or install *designing* alarm systems that either can't be
installed as planned, won't work effectively as planned or will cause
false alarms if installed as planned.

There's no law in most places against unlicensed salesmen telling
homeowners what to use and where to use it. Fortunately for my
clients, I've designed, installed and serviced alarms for many years.
This isn't something unique or special. Many of the online merchants
in the trade are also alarm dealers and can also offer technical
support.


A large portion of my time is spent doing just that -- explaining how
things work and how to install them. It's not rocket science though.
Anyone with a modicum of tool skills and a bit of patience can do
install their own security alarm system. It may take a little longer
than it would for an experienced pro but the cost savings can be
significant and there's no requirement of a long-term contract.
Furthermore, when the homeowner decides to DIY his alarm system he
doesn't have to worry about being "locked out" of programming even
after paying for the system.

Maybe elsewhere, but in mississippi even salesmen have to take a basic
level course and get liscensed to sell in the residential market.
Granted they don't get tech level classes, but they have to take an
approved course before they get liscensed.

 

[RockyTSquirrel]

you might be right Robert, However I've lived in Kentucky for a very very
long time and I do understand how the law makers here think.. they'll
find anyway possible to make money and fines and legal suits are there
first choice..

 

[Robert L Bass]

Maybe elsewhere, but in mississippi even salesmen have to take a basic level
course and get liscensed to sell in the residential market. Granted they
don't get tech level classes, but they have to take an approved course
before they get liscensed.

Salesmen working for dealers who install, service or monitor alarms may need a
license. Salesmen working in a store that only sells products and neither
offers installation nor monitoring service are not required to be licensed.
As mentioned earlier, if that were not so every RatShak, Loews and HD employee
would need a license to sell electrical components, alarm parts, plumbing
fixtures, etc.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

you might be right Robert, However I've lived in Kentucky for a very very
long time and I do understand how the law makers here think.. they'll
find anyway possible to make money and fines and legal suits are there
first choice..

Kentucky is one of the most beautiful states I've traveled over the years. No
doubt you're right about the politicians though. :^)

Fortunately for me, laws in other states have zero impact on me and Florida
has chosen not to regulate online sales of alarm parts (this despite
misleading information to the contrary posted occasionally by a few members of
the IB here).

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

I'm sure that is on your checklist for pre-qualifying potential DIY'er's.

Clearly it's not on the list of the 10 or 11 companies that hired you in as
many years.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Bob La Londe]

UL isn't even truly independent. Know what that "U" stands for?

Underwriters.

 

[Robert L Bass]

Underwriters.

Yep, as in the insurance industry.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Bob Worthy]

Florida still does not require licenses of online or "brick and mortar" stores
selling alarm systems. Salesmen working for companies that provide
installation and/or monitoring are required to be licensed. Worthy knows
this.

Yes I do.....and.....your online store was never the target of the DBPR
investigation on you....and....you know this.

... unless the company is not located in Florida.

You really should comment on Florida State Statute. You continually want to
ignore all other parts of the Statute except what you only want to use to
your advantage. I will do your homework for you. I said before I wouldn't do
that, but I am feeling generous this morning.

Chapter 489 Part II State Statute (revised 6/2007)

489.505(27) "Monitoring" means to receive electrical or electronic signals
originating from any structure within the state or outside the state,
regardless of whether those signals are relayed through a jurisdiction
outside the state, where medical, fire, or burglar alarm, closed circuit
television camera, access-control system, or related or similar protective
system and are intended by design to initiate a response thereto.

489.505(25)(c) "Burlar Alarm System Agent" means a person whose specific
duties include any of the following: altering, installing maintaining,
moving, repairing, replacing, servicing, selling, or monitoring an intusion
or burglar alarm system for compensation.

489.518(2)(b) Persons who perform only monitoring at an out of state
location are not required to comply with back ground check requirements.

Sounds like the out of state monitoring center needs to be licensed in
Florida to me. You, however, probably have your own spin to it.

 

[Robert L Bass]

Yes I do.....and.....your online store was never the target of the DBPR
investigation on you....and....you know this.

The target was me personally. The shooter was your disgusting pal. They gave
their best shot at stopping me from selling online in Florida and they lost.
Get over it, moron.

You really should comment on Florida State Statute. You continually want to
ignore all other parts of the Statute except what you only want to use to
your advantage. I will do your homework for you. I said before I wouldn't do
that, but I am feeling generous this morning.

The only part of the licensing law that matters to me is the part that says I
don't need a license in Florida because my business is not subject to state
licensing.

Chapter 489 Part II State Statute (revised 6/2007)

489.505(27) "Monitoring" means to receive electrical or electronic signals
originating from any structure within the state or outside the state...

According to the statute:

"A person shall not have committed the act of monitoring if:
(d) The person is not employed in a proprietary monitoring facility, as
defined by the National Fire Protection Association pursuant to rule adopted
under chapter 633."

There's another thing you invariably fail to mention. During the time when I
offered monitoring services I never offered it to or from structures within
Florida. The central station my DIY clients used in those years was in
Massachussetts and my clients were all located outside the state of Florida.
The DBPR agent noted this in his discussion with me. He looked at the facts
and determined that there was nothing illegal going on. He recommended
dismissing the matter and the AG agreed. Your crooked pal has lied
consistently about this, claiming there was a big disagreement but we all know
that's not true. Your guy tried to hurt my business and failed. In the
process he made a fool of himself by posting a lot of foul, personal insults
online where hs superiors could read them.

489.518(2)(b) Persons who perform only monitoring at an out of state
location are not required to comply with back ground check requirements.

Sounds like the out of state monitoring center needs to be licensed in
Florida to me. You, however, probably have your own spin to it.

You ignore the fact that no Florida premises were monitored. You already know
this because we had the same discussion several years ago. Posting the same
statement now is tantamount to lying.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

The target was me personally. The shooter was your disgusting pal.
They gave their best shot at stopping me from selling online in Florida
and they lost. Get over it, moron.


The only part of the licensing law that matters to me is the part that
says I don't need a license in Florida because my business is not
subject to state licensing.


According to the statute:

"A person shall not have committed the act of monitoring if:
(d) The person is not employed in a proprietary monitoring facility, as
defined by the National Fire Protection Association pursuant to rule
adopted under chapter 633."

There's another thing you invariably fail to mention. During the time
when I offered monitoring services I never offered it to or from
structures within Florida. The central station my DIY clients used in
those years was in Massachussetts and my clients were all located
outside the state of Florida. The DBPR agent noted this in his
discussion with me. He looked at the facts and determined that there
was nothing illegal going on. He recommended dismissing the matter and
the AG agreed. Your crooked pal has lied consistently about this,
claiming there was a big disagreement but we all know that's not true.
Your guy tried to hurt my business and failed. In the process he made a
fool of himself by posting a lot of foul, personal insults online where
hs superiors could read them.

You're missing the boat (as usual) when you're trying to twist a meaning
closer to your ends out of the section of statute you quoted. This has
to do with the monitoring of customer owned equipment in a customer
owned monitoring centre. It allows companies like "Target", and "Home
Depot" (and some Banks) to run a central monitoring facility that
receives signals from their own stores/premises. There is NO EXEMPTION
for a monitoring facility that accepts payment for services related to
receiving communications from YOUR customers or the public. In this
instance, the individual employees (and the company) are subject to the
licensing requirements set out in the statute. They are exempted from
providing criminal background checks and that is all. It is assumed
that such checks are being dealt with by the employer in their home state.

You ignore the fact that no Florida premises were monitored. You
already know this because we had the same discussion several years ago.
Posting the same statement now is tantamount to lying.

Yes, you've repeated "ad nauseum" your claim that you never monitored
Florida residents. What you did do for a number of years is *SELL*
monitoring services and collect revenue *IN* Florida (an action that is
defined in the Statute as requiring an Agent's License). You stopped
this activity when they initiated an investigation of your web site.
ISTR you also "made yourself scarce" for the days the investigator was
"in your neighborhood".

 

[Bob Worthy]

Yep, as in the insurance industry.

I see you haven't changed at all since I left the NG before. The "U" in this
case stands for "Uninformed". They are not an insurance company. Since you
put this type of stuff on the NG as info, it shouldn't be look at as gospel
by folks that visit here. Maybe you should check the Board of Insurance here
in Florida and get back with us on the subject. Third party verification is
required in several cities and counties here and some specifically state UL.
See if they are licensed as an insurance company. I believe you will find,
if you look elsewhere, that they are a not for profit nationally recognized
third party testing laboratory. Maybe "NFPNRTPTL" was a tad to long for
them.

 

[Bob La Londe]

I see you haven't changed at all since I left the NG before. The "U" in this
case stands for "Uninformed". They are not an insurance company. Since you
put this type of stuff on the NG as info, it shouldn't be look at as gospel
by folks that visit here. Maybe you should check the Board of Insurance here
in Florida and get back with us on the subject. Third party verification is
required in several cities and counties here and some specifically state UL.
See if they are licensed as an insurance company. I believe you will find,
if you look elsewhere, that they are a not for profit nationally recognized
third party testing laboratory. Maybe "NFPNRTPTL" was a tad to long for
them.

Not for profit? Really? You mean all those excutives who work full time at
UL do it gratis? UL is more about protecting their jobs than anything.
Maybe makimng a little on the side too. Ask certain central stations about
demands for documented source code and access to proprietary development
data and trade secrets in order to certify instead of testing for percentage
of reliability and fitness for the intended purpose as they are supposed to.
Oh, wait. Maybe there is more to UL than the shiny veneer they try to sell.

LOL. Finally many AHJs are recognizing that UL is not a regulatory body.
They are just an arbitrary independent company that sets standards and then
sells access to them.