Residential Circuit breaker?

[Hammy]

My sister had some water penetration in her basement. Water apparently got
into an outlet and caused smoke to emit from the outlet. Why would the
circuit breaker not trip?

The wiring is all exposed and see says none of the insulation is melted.

What I think might have happened is the water would intermittently short
out the contacts but be cooked off before the breaker trips causing the
smoke.

I'll be going over there tonight I plan on testing the breaker and
installing a new outlet.


Further details the water penetration is an on going problem their basement
is ripped apart and the outlet in ? was laying on the floor. I know not the
brightest thing when you have a leak in your basement

 

[Jamie]

My sister had some water penetration in her basement. Water apparently got
into an outlet and caused smoke to emit from the outlet. Why would the
circuit breaker not trip?

The wiring is all exposed and see says none of the insulation is melted.

What I think might have happened is the water would intermittently short
out the contacts but be cooked off before the breaker trips causing the
smoke.

I'll be going over there tonight I plan on testing the breaker and
installing a new outlet.


Further details the water penetration is an on going problem their basement
is ripped apart and the outlet in ? was laying on the floor. I know not the
brightest thing when you have a leak in your basement

Even if there was a GFCI outlet there, it may trip the outlet but the
wires leading to it and inside the GFCI are still alive..

To help alleviate the problem in the future, maybe you should have a
CFCI breaker installed. Sub panels are normally much higher than an
outlet.. If it gets that high, you have a real problem!

Jamie...

 

[Joe]

My sister had some water penetration in her basement. Water apparently
got into an outlet and caused smoke to emit from the outlet. Why would
the circuit breaker not trip?

Conceivably the circuit breaker is bad... for example, "FPE circuit
breakers can fail to trip in response to overcurrent... The breakers
may also fail to shut off internally even if the toggle is switched to off"
according to <http://www.inspectapedia.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm>

Wikipedia doesn't have an FPE article... just a brief statement on a
disambiguation page: "FPE ... can refer to: Federal Pacific Electric,
an electrical supply company noted for their circuit breakers ..."

The wiring is all exposed and she says none of the insulation is melted.

What I think might have happened is the water would intermittently short
out the contacts but be cooked off before the breaker trips causing the
smoke.

....

 

[Hammy]

Try this simple experiment: Plug in a soldering iron. Wait for it to
heat up. Put some solder (flux core) on the iron. Look! Smoke! Yet
-- the circuit breaker doesn't trip.

So: you can get smoke, and no circuit breaker tripping.

You've got a hot spot, either from the water cooking off (without
drawing lots of current), or from a wiring fault. I'd check for
corrosion even if it _isn't_ aluminum wire -- if the basement is
leaking now it's probably leaked in the past, and water + metal
usually equals corrosion.

That was my intial assumption just wanted some other opionions in case I'm
over looking something obvious.

My brother in law is a nice guy but when it comes to home repair
well....;-) Thats whose house it is.

I just plan on replaceing the outlet after testing the breaker by shorting
the oultlet first. I havent seen it yet, but I do remember he had an outlet
on the bare concrete floor. I vaugley remember telling him it wasnt a good
idea.

 

[Hammy]

Try this simple experiment: Plug in a soldering iron. Wait for it to
heat up. Put some solder (flux core) on the iron. Look! Smoke! Yet
-- the circuit breaker doesn't trip.

Nice;-)

I was wondering why when I cook bacon and the breaker doesnt trip now I
know.;-)

 

[Ecnerwal]

In this case - since the outlet itself can become wet - you might want
to seriously consider installing a circuit breaker which has a
built-in ground fault interruptor. That would protect the whole

Or, rather less expensively, put in a GFCI outlet as the first item on
the circuit. Since it's all exposed wiring, cut in a new box close to
the breaker box (and higher than the water level got to) if you feel the
need - otherwise just replace the first outlet, and pay attention to
which is line and which is load.

 

[[email protected]]

here all houses must have a gfi, all old installations also had it
added when it became law

The US frowns on ex post facto laws (not that it's never done).

here the spec is no less then 15mA and no more than 30mA it must trip

I believe the trip limit in the US is 5mA. Appliances aren't supposed to have
a leakage above .5mA.

think the min 15mA came from old ones used to be sensitive to
lightning
close by, not so nice coming home from vacation finding out the
freezer
has been off for a week

That used to be an issue, so freezers were exempt as long as they were on a
"single outlet", or some such. GFCIs aren't supposed to be sensitive to
surges anymore so I believe that exemption has been rescinded in the latest
code.

 

[Hammy]

Or, rather less expensively, put in a GFCI outlet as the first item on
the circuit. Since it's all exposed wiring, cut in a new box close to
the breaker box (and higher than the water level got to) if you feel the
need - otherwise just replace the first outlet, and pay attention to
which is line and which is load.

The water is comming in due to the previous owner doing modifications to
the sump pump system and weeping tile. There are two pipes maybe an inch
above the concrete floor that overflow with water. He had a sump expert
come in and he has no idea what the purpose of the two pipes is. Has
anybody ever heard of something like that; the two pipes coming out of the
floor? He recomended a new sump system and weeping tile about $3 or $4k I
think he said.

The water hasnt been high enough to submerge the outlets when they are
installed to code (maybe an inch or so just in areas around the pipes) but
he has the basement ripped apart to remove any mold from the water. He left
an outlet on the floor which is the one in question.

It was melted I just tested the breaker and changed the outlet and tacked
it up out of the way until he decides what he's going to do. The wire is
definetly weakend from the moisture in the basement I had to strip off
quite a bit because it kept breaking from normal bending. I told him to get
new wire and I would replace it all when he is ready.

 

[PeterD]

My sister had some water penetration in her basement. Water apparently got
into an outlet and caused smoke to emit from the outlet. Why would the
circuit breaker not trip?

Because it is a circuit breaker, not a smoke detector?

The wiring is all exposed and see says none of the insulation is melted.

'see?' But I am sure you will find the outlet itself damaged.

What I think might have happened is the water would intermittently short
out the contacts but be cooked off before the breaker trips causing the
smoke.

Say a 20 amp circuit. Say 15 amps into a semi-short. Breaker will
never trip. But 15 amps at 120 volts is about 1,800 watts, all in a
small area. That's a lot of heat.

I'll be going over there tonight I plan on testing the breaker and
installing a new outlet.

Just how are you going to test the breaker? You don't seem to
understand what they are or how they work, so testing it would be
rather beyond you abilities probably.

Further details the water penetration is an on going problem their basement
is ripped apart and the outlet in ? was laying on the floor. I know not the
brightest thing when you have a leak in your basement

?

Hire a qualified electrican, and get the job done right.

 

[Ecnerwal]

The water is comming in due to the previous owner doing modifications to
the sump pump system and weeping tile. There are two pipes maybe an inch
above the concrete floor that overflow with water. He had a sump expert
come in and he has no idea what the purpose of the two pipes is. Has
anybody ever heard of something like that; the two pipes coming out of the
floor?

Any undocumented drainage is rather hard to sort, whether it's on usenet
or in front of your face, though the latter is sometimes more clear.
Likewise, you/your BIL don't know what the previous owner did or did not
do, or what mess the last person to work on it (whoever that was)
started with. Welcome to houses, and why any you didn't personally build
can be maddening. I don't know why they'd be coming out above the floor
rather than into a sump pit, but they probably lead to either underfloor
or outside of wall drainage. Or an old septic system, or....

In decreasing order of rightness of fix (and amount of work or money):

Cut floor all the way to nearest sump, remove floor in cut, cut pipes
and couple to underfloor pipe that runs to sump, repour floor in cut.
More work, but tidy. Dry diamond blades and cheap saws or grinders (the
dust ruins the bearings, even on good saws and grinders) are your
friends here, along with a great dust mask.

Cutting a slot in the floor and leaving it as a path for the water to
run to the sump. It will need to be kept clean. Painting the floor after
cutting the slot will help to keep the water running.

Coupling a pipe (since there is a stub above floor level) to run
above/along the floor to the sump. Annoying to step over.

Caulking an upside-down section of gutter to the floor as a path for the
water to run to the sump. I thought this very strange the first time I
saw it, but it seems to be standard in some places. Annoying to step
over. Floor has to be cleaned well for the caulk to stick.

Plugging or capping the unknown pipes, letting whatever water is coming
in by them redirect itself to the known drain pipes that lead to the
sump. Depending on the other drainage and what is feeding the pipes,
this could be anything from a perfect solution to making everything much
worse. Simply don't know, can't know in advance. Not really recommended.

I don't see any point to a new sump system (well, except to the guy
selling sump systems) if the problem is these two pipes, rather than the
rest of the sump system. Fix the water coming from the pipes, be done.

 

[Hammy]

Because it is a circuit breaker, not a smoke detector?

Wow did you come up with that all by yourself. What wit! Half-Wit that
is.

I keep forgetting you need to be very clear and specific for the mental
midgets.I said what my conclusion were but I thought I would ask for
other opions. I'm not arrogant like some and accept the fact that I
might overlook something. In this case that wasnt the case.

'see?' But I am sure you will find the outlet itself damaged.


Say a 20 amp circuit. Say 15 amps into a semi-short. Breaker will
never trip. But 15 amps at 120 volts is about 1,800 watts, all in a
small area. That's a lot of heat.

I guess you have comprehension difficulty. Whats a semi short twit. Its
either shorted or it isnt. It would be more like intermittent short;
then the water cooking off before the breaker trips. Did you miss that
the first time around dumb ass?

Just how are you going to test the breaker? You don't seem to
understand what they are or how they work, so testing it would be
rather beyond you abilities probably.

Shorting it out would be my way of testing it pea brain. I guess you
might consider that a complex procedure.

?

Hire a qualified electrican, and get the job done right.

What are you an electrician asshole? Thats probably the highest level of
education you could attain. What are the qualifications for an
electricition GR10 and an apprentiship. Whop-di-doo.

I have an EET , and Bsc so go **** yourself. I just dont do residential
wireing everyday,nor do I want to. Boreing yawn..!

 

[JosephKK]

My sister had some water penetration in her basement. Water apparently got
into an outlet and caused smoke to emit from the outlet. Why would the
circuit breaker not trip?

The wiring is all exposed and see says none of the insulation is melted.

What I think might have happened is the water would intermittently short
out the contacts but be cooked off before the breaker trips causing the
smoke.

I'll be going over there tonight I plan on testing the breaker and
installing a new outlet.


Further details the water penetration is an on going problem their basement
is ripped apart and the outlet in ? was laying on the floor. I know not the
brightest thing when you have a leak in your basement

Simple, get a GFCI type breaker and replace it. It will trip in a
timely fashion.

 

[ehsjr]

The water is comming in due to the previous owner doing modifications to
the sump pump system and weeping tile. There are two pipes maybe an inch
above the concrete floor that overflow with water. He had a sump expert
come in and he has no idea what the purpose of the two pipes is. Has
anybody ever heard of something like that; the two pipes coming out of the
floor? He recomended a new sump system and weeping tile about $3 or $4k I
think he said.

The water hasnt been high enough to submerge the outlets when they are
installed to code (maybe an inch or so just in areas around the pipes) but
he has the basement ripped apart to remove any mold from the water. He left
an outlet on the floor which is the one in question.

It was melted I just tested the breaker and changed the outlet and tacked
it up out of the way until he decides what he's going to do. The wire is
definetly weakend from the moisture in the basement I had to strip off
quite a bit because it kept breaking from normal bending. I told him to get
new wire and I would replace it all when he is ready.

You mentioned a concrete floor. That's enough to indicate that
GFI protection is needed for readily accessible receptacles in the
basement, whether or not there is a water problem. A GFCI
receptacle installed *** in the first location on the branch circuit
is as effective as a GFI breaker to protect against ground faults,
is a lot cheaper, and saves a position on the neutral bus in the
panel that a GFI breaker would need.

*** = at panel height, for any who want to worry about
floods reaching panel height.

Ed

 

[Hammy]

You mentioned a concrete floor. That's enough to indicate that
GFI protection is needed for readily accessible receptacles in the
basement, whether or not there is a water problem. A GFCI
receptacle installed *** in the first location on the branch circuit
is as effective as a GFI breaker to protect against ground faults,
is a lot cheaper, and saves a position on the neutral bus in the
panel that a GFI breaker would need.

*** = at panel height, for any who want to worry about
floods reaching panel height.

Ed

It depends. In Canada their is no standardization federally there are different code books province to province. I have a 2001
Ontario code book I bought when we went through residential wireing codes in my first semester at College. I'll dig around and see
if I can find it and see what is applicable here Ontario.

I agree that would be the safest having the GFCI on the first circuit in a branch makes sense, whether its requiried here; off the
top of my head I dont know.

 

[Hammy]

I have seen a pipe coming out of a basement wall right above the sump
pump hole in order to provide a drainage path to the ground under a
paved parking lot behind and above the basement. When that pipe got
clogged, water started seeping in all along the basement wall on that
side. Cleaning out the clog led to a sudden flood (since the pipe
delivered water faster than the sump pump could get rid of it)
followed by a no more wall seepages.

Yea Its not my house I dont have a sump pump in mine. I know little about
them. He is getting some wall seepage though.

Their is water visible in the pipes all the time its always withn an inch
or to of the pipe lip.

I told them when they bought that place the landscapeing was graded wrong
funnelling water into the foundation rather then away and he still hasnt
installed eavestrough.

I dont have a sump pump and I've only had two water issues both due to
foundation cracks nothing severe just a small puddle by the cracks. I fixed
one and had the other fixed inside the house useing pressure injection.
I've since graded my landscapeing and installed eavestrough's havent had
any water problems since.

 

[Hammy]

Are you prepared to handle the situation that might develop if you
short the outlet and the breaker does not trip?

Well I would be standing right beside the breaker so yea, flip the main breaker. If that is the
case then that would be the time to find out wouldnt you agree?

 

[Hammy]

Well I would be standing right beside the breaker so yea, flip the
main breaker. If that is the case then that would be the time to find
out wouldnt you agree?

What is this some novel method for testing breakers or something for some
people? Why what do you do diaasemble it and run a battery of test? Thats
something some PHD dweeb would do then charge $500 bucks to an idiot. With
my method you know right away 1 second. I also would hazrd to guess that
they may have a been desighned to fail safe (open), but theres a saying
"shit happens" and things dont always do what they are designed to do. If
this wasnt the case residentiual electrical fires wouldnt occur with such
frequency now would they. So yea the safest way is to actually test the
thing standing there.


Its common practice to short all lines on branches in construction sites
when you dont want them powered. It makes it safe in case some one else is
working somewhere and decides to try and flip a breaker on a branch
someone else is working on; the breaker should immdeatily flip back.

 

[[email protected]]

It depends. In Canada their is no standardization federally there are different code books province to province. I have a 2001
Ontario code book I bought when we went through residential wireing codes in my first semester at College. I'll dig around and see
if I can find it and see what is applicable here Ontario.

There is no standardization in the US either. Each state/city/town/county
(whatever level of jurisdiction such things are delegated to) has its own
rules and levels of enforcement. They usually use the NFPA's code but often
have addendums or use the code from previous years.

 

[PeterD]

Wow did you come up with that all by yourself. What wit! Half-Wit that
is.

I keep forgetting you need to be very clear and specific for the mental
midgets.I said what my conclusion were but I thought I would ask for
other opions. I'm not arrogant like some and accept the fact that I
might overlook something. In this case that wasnt the case.


I guess you have comprehension difficulty. Whats a semi short twit. Its
either shorted or it isnt. It would be more like intermittent short;
then the water cooking off before the breaker trips. Did you miss that
the first time around dumb ass?


Shorting it out would be my way of testing it pea brain. I guess you
might consider that a complex procedure.



What are you an electrician asshole? Thats probably the highest level of
education you could attain. What are the qualifications for an
electricition GR10 and an apprentiship. Whop-di-doo.

I have an EET , and Bsc so go **** yourself. I just dont do residential
wireing everyday,nor do I want to. Boreing yawn..!

Bwa-ha-ha-ha... You are funny, know that? I gave you the answers,
sorry you don't like them.

FYI, not all shorts are zero ohms.
FYI, circuit breakers rated at 20 amps usually don't trip at 15 amps.
FYI, shorting a circuit breaker (I guess you are saying you'll short
the circuit breaker's output) is not a terribly good or safe test.

Clearly you are in over your head with this problem... Good luck,
Jon...

 

[Hammy]

Bwa-ha-ha-ha... You are funny, know that? I gave you the answers,
sorry you don't like them.

FYI, not all shorts are zero ohms.

Nothing will ever be zero ohms you will have conductor and contact resistance.A short is a fault idiot meaning its either faulted or
not. Its not semi faulted. Where did you come up with that dummy? They came up with this word intermittent.

FYI, circuit breakers rated at 20 amps usually don't trip at 15 amps.

No shit idiot they wont interrupt at 200A for certain ms. Whats your point?

FYI, shorting a circuit breaker (I guess you are saying you'll short
the circuit breaker's output) is not a terribly good or safe test.

I've already done it.Its done all the time.I'm still alive to write.

Clearly you are in over your head with this problem... Good luck,
Jon...

Clearly you have no idea what your talking about and hence shouldnt have responded to the thread. You are the most dangerous of morons
you think you know what your talking about but you dont.