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Replace old fluorescent tube with brighter?

S

Susan P

I am in the UK.

I have an old 13 watt linear fluorescent lamp (20 inch long) which is
not really bright enough for my needs.

Can I replace the tube with a tube of a different technology so it is
brighter?
 
B

Bart Z. Lederman

I am in the UK.

I have an old 13 watt linear fluorescent lamp (20 inch long) which is
not really bright enough for my needs.

Can I replace the tube with a tube of a different technology so it is
brighter?

If the lamp is really old, then a new replacement lamp (bulb)
may help. Fluorescent lamps lose some light output with time,
and if the lamp is very old (or was really cheap) a new lamp
may be more efficient and give you more light.

And, not to be insulting, but the next most common cause of
loss of light output is dirt. You don't say if the fixture is
open or closed, or if there is any cover over the lamp, but
dirt can cause more light loss than you might think.

If those two things don't do enough, then you'll probably need
to get a different fixture. Re-wiring an existing unit to take
a different lamp can be done, but it's really for people with
experience, or who like to tinker and don't mind if they spend
more to make the change than to buy a new lamp.
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Susan P said:
I am in the UK.

I have an old 13 watt linear fluorescent lamp (20 inch long) which is
not really bright enough for my needs.

Can I replace the tube with a tube of a different technology so it is
brighter?

If the tube has been in use a while then it may be fairly dim anyway.
In this case a new tube could be much brighter.

There are certainly some good quality tubes with high efficiency
phosphors available. I'm not sure how available they are for the older
13W 21"(?) tube.
 
A

Alex

In Susan P said:

Bart said:
If the lamp is really old, then a new replacement lamp (bulb)
may help.

[snip]

If those two things don't do enough, then you'll probably need
to get a different fixture. Re-wiring an existing unit to take
a different lamp can be done, but it's really for people with
experience, or who like to tinker and don't mind if they spend
more to make the change than to buy a new lamp.

Get yourself a triphosphor tube, these have higher output than the
older halophosphates. And output falls over time with halos, and
dirt does have quite an effect. Hopefully between those 3 you'll
get enough light again. If not, step up to a 2' fitting or a 23w
cfl..



Note about tubes: there are good and bad. You'll want anything from
2700K to 3500K, I would not buy anything higher, such as 4500K.


I am in the UK.

In my kitchen I have a five foot tube (1.5 inches diameter) marked
Philips F65W/35 which has been there for about 15 years.

Can a triposphor tube simply be put in where this old style
(halophosphate?) tube has been?

What about the need for improved things I hear about like electronic
balasts and quick start devices. My old fitting seems unlikely to have
any of those.

Rather than upgrade the tube and perhaps have to change components would
it be a whole lot better to get a new triphospor tube and fitting? I
hear that T8 may be the best value.
 
V

Victor Roberts

I am in the UK.

In my kitchen I have a five foot tube (1.5 inches diameter) marked
Philips F65W/35 which has been there for about 15 years.

Can a triposphor tube simply be put in where this old style
(halophosphate?) tube has been?

I passed on your message the first time around since I
didn't have data on UK lamps handy. However, I don't want
you to have only the advice of an anonymous person who goes
by the dual names of meow2222 and NT.

If the F65W/35 is a has a diameter of 1.5 inches (T12) and a
length of 5 feet, yes, there is a triphosphor version
available. However, it is most likely more expensive than
an equivalent T8 lamp.
What about the need for improved things I hear about like electronic
balasts and quick start devices. My old fitting seems unlikely to have
any of those.

Rather than upgrade the tube and perhaps have to change components would
it be a whole lot better to get a new triphospor tube and fitting? I
hear that T8 may be the best value.

An electronic ballast will reduce energy consumption, reduce
lamp flicker and increase lamp life. Moving to T8 would
probably provide the best value - I know it would in the US
but I don't have as much information about the UK market.
If so then where can I get such a thing from as the DIY shops I have
tried (Focus, Homebase, local shops) don't seem to stock anything marked
"triphosphor". Are they usually marked like that?

The lamps are not marked triphosphor. They use have a three
number color code such as 835 for a CRI in the 80's and a
CCT of 3500. To make sure it is a triphosphor lamp you will
have to check the lamp manufacturer's on line catalog.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.
 
A

Andrew Gabriel


Yes, providing it has switch-start control gear (i.e. a plug-in
starter and the tube flashes a few times when switched on).
The tube will operate with some other types of control gear,
but at the wrong power rating, which may or may not matter.
A T8 58W tube is designed to run on a ballast for a T12 65W tube.
So, in theory you should check the fitting has a 65W ballast
rather than an 80W ballast. (5' fittings were originally 80W
in the UK, but were reduced to 65W around 1970, although 5' T12
tubes remained dual rated 65/80W for a further 10 years. If the
fitting is only 15 years old, it should be a 65W ballast.)
theres no need for any of those


If your fitting works ok theres no need to replace it. If you do, and
you pick an electronic one, you'll get:
- an unnoticeably small light output increase
- no flicker & flash during starting
- longer tube life, which given the cost of tubes now is of small
value.

Depends on the starting style of the electronic one and the
average time you have the tube on each time. Switch-start will
give longer life than electronic instant start (at least in the
UK, although this seems not to be true in the US on 120V mains
where switch-start doesn't work too well). Electronic pre-heat
might give slightly longer life than switch-start, but I've
never seen any real-life evidence of this.

Note that it is very difficult to tell in advance if an electronic
ballast is instant start or preheat from any markings on it.
Unfortunately, the term "instant start" in Europe is increasingly
used to refer to any type of electronic ballast, including those
which don't start instantly.

Also note that the US uses the same control gear names to mean
completely different types of control gear. I have stuck to the
UK/European names here, which means this posting probably looks
like complete garbage to a US reader in sci.engr.lighting.
- lower reliability and shorter fitting life
- less money left in your pocket
- some unnecessary extra work to do

- significantly reduced choice of fittings
 
A

Alex

I am in the UK.
Yes, providing it has switch-start control gear (i.e. a plug-in
starter and the tube flashes a few times when switched on).

When I switch on the tube glows orange at each end for about a full
second and then the whole tube lights up.

Is this as good as the "few flashes" you write?

The tube will operate with some other types of control gear,
but at the wrong power rating, which may or may not matter.
A T8 58W tube is designed to run on a ballast for a T12 65W tube.

My fluorescent fitting has a 65W choke. (This is a ballast, it it?).

The lettering on the choke is truly ancient looking and I think it says
Thorn in the letters around a logo. The whole thing is about 5 inches
long. Hope fully this is ok.

Out of interest what is the difference if this was rated at 80W and the
T8 58W tube you mentioned was used?
 
A

Alex

theres no need for any of those


If your fitting works ok theres no need to replace it. If you do,
and you pick an electronic one, you'll get:

- an unnoticeably small light output increase
- no flicker & flash during starting
- longer tube life, which given the cost of tubes now is of
small value.
- lower reliability and shorter fitting life
- less money left in your pocket
- some unnecessary extra work to do


Hey, I thought that an electronic light fitting for a fluorescent was
the smart modern smart thing to get. You make it sound like a backward
step!

What am I misunderstanding?

Is there no real advantage to an electronic fitting (electronic starter
and ballast) other than instant-on and a slightly longer tube life?
 
V

Victor Roberts

Depends on the starting style of the electronic one and the
average time you have the tube on each time. Switch-start will
give longer life than electronic instant start (at least in the
UK, although this seems not to be true in the US on 120V mains
where switch-start doesn't work too well). Electronic pre-heat
might give slightly longer life than switch-start, but I've
never seen any real-life evidence of this.

I'm rather surprised about your comments re: switch-start
lamp life in the UK. Major manufacturers are now
advertising fluorescent lamps with rated lives of 30,000
hours and greater when operated on programmed rapid start
ballasts using the 3-hour on and 20-minute off cycle. Can a
switch-start lamp in the UK really come close to that same
life with the same operating cycle?

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.
 
A

Alex

I passed on your message the first time around since I
didn't have data on UK lamps handy. However, I don't want
you to have only the advice of an anonymous person who goes
by the dual names of meow2222 and NT.

If the F65W/35 is a has a diameter of 1.5 inches (T12) and a
length of 5 feet, yes, there is a triphosphor version
available. However, it is most likely more expensive than
an equivalent T8 lamp.


An electronic ballast will reduce energy consumption, reduce
lamp flicker and increase lamp life. Moving to T8 would
probably provide the best value - I know it would in the US
but I don't have as much information about the UK market.


The lamps are not marked triphosphor. They use have a three
number color code such as 835 for a CRI in the 80's and a
CCT of 3500. To make sure it is a triphosphor lamp you will
have to check the lamp manufacturer's on line catalog.


Victor, I guess you differ and are saying that you feel the value of an
electronic fitting is greater than posted by meow2222/NT.

Against that the other poster lists that lower reliability and shorter
fitting life is a disadvantage and so is the extra cost of the unit plus
the cost/effort of installing it.

I sense that you feel that reduced energy consumption, reduced lamp
flicker and increased lamp life outweigh the disadvantages.

Would I be right in getting the impression that, very broadly speaking,
it is a close call as to whether the pros outweigh the cons or vice
versa?
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Victor Roberts said:
I'm rather surprised about your comments re: switch-start lamp life in
the UK. Major manufacturers are now advertising fluorescent lamps with
rated lives of 30,000 hours and greater when operated on programmed
rapid start ballasts using the 3-hour on and 20-minute off cycle. Can
a switch-start lamp in the UK really come close to that same life with
the same operating cycle?

The early instant starting ballast's in the UK really hammered the
electrodes. It's not the same now.
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Alex <[email protected]> said:
Hey, I thought that an electronic light fitting for a fluorescent was
the smart modern smart thing to get. You make it sound like a backward
step!

A lot of the guys and gals on this list are veterans of the lighting
industry. We had our fingers well and truly burned with the early
electronic ballasts which had a fairly short life due to thermal issues.
The modern units with more rugged, higher temperature rated components
and wiser design don't have so many issues. (Unless you get the cheapo
ones.)

I think we can safely say. "Once bitten twice shy" applies.
 
A

Andrew Gabriel

The differences are simply too small imho for it to be worth replacing
one for the other in a domestic situation. And as said, the differences
are not all pros, theyre a mix.

Since you've already got a nice thermal starter setup (or perhaps

Not in a 15 year old fitting. You'd need a >45 year old fitting
which would also have B22d (bayonet cap) connections on the tube
ends ;-)
something else that doesnt flash during start), you wouldnt gain the

Might well be an electronic starter.
 
A

Andy Wade

There is also Victor's point about flicker, but really if a light is
flickering noticeably its replacement time anyway, so its not such an
issue in practice. It is in large lighting installations though, where
faulty fittings are liable to be left running. But as long as its
working ok, there isnt a problem.

Unless stroboscopic effects in connection with rotating machinery are a
problem.
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Andy Wade said:
Unless stroboscopic effects in connection with rotating machinery are a
problem.

I believe it's in the kitchen, so there is a high possibility of putting
ones hand into the seemingly motionless cake mixer. :p
 
V

Victor Roberts

[snip]
Victor, I guess you differ and are saying that you feel the value of an
electronic fitting is greater than posted by meow2222/NT.

We do tend to differ on a number of lighting issues :)
Against that the other poster lists that lower reliability and shorter
fitting life is a disadvantage and so is the extra cost of the unit plus
the cost/effort of installing it.

My understanding of that other post was that older
electronic ballasts had some reliability problems and that
make him shy away from even the modern, more reliable ones.
I sense that you feel that reduced energy consumption, reduced lamp
flicker and increased lamp life outweigh the disadvantages.

Its more than that, at least in the US. The best
fluorescent lamps from an energy efficiency point of view
are linear T5 and T8 lamps operating on high quality
electronic ballasts. The best fluorescent lamps from a
color quality issue are lamps using rare earth triphosphors.
The least expensive triphosphor lamps are linear T8 lamps,
with T5 next in line and T12 triphosphor lamps many times
the cost of equivalent length T12 lamps. In the US at
least, there are few EM ballasts for T8 lamps. So, the T8
+ electronic ballast combination often has a lower initial
cost than a T12 triphosphor lamp and an EM ballast.
Would I be right in getting the impression that, very broadly speaking,
it is a close call as to whether the pros outweigh the cons or vice
versa?

As opposed to meow2222/NT I believe that we should try to
save energy whenever possible. Your one lamp fixture may
not save a lot of energy, but when multiplied by the number
of people making this decision, the impact can be large.

Plus, I expect that when you see the cost of a triphosphor
version of your current lamp that alone will start you
looking at T8 systems.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.
 
V

Victor Roberts

machinery strobing is possible with mag ballasts, but doesnt normally
happen,

actually it happens 100% of the time on single lamp
ballasts, through it is usually called flicker.
and does not make it look stationary even when it does.

Since the depth of the modulation is less than 100% and it
is unlikely that the mixer blades are rotating at a multiple
of the power line frequency I agree with you on this point.
Its not as much of an issue as is often thought, even in workshops.

I would agree about the effect of the strobing on rotating
machinery.
In a house its a non issue.

Unless you are one of the many people who get headaches from
fluorescent lamp flicker.
And cake mixers are well interlocked :)

And where do you find a mixer that is interlocked against a
hand in the "blades" or whatever they are called? Certainly
not mine.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.
 
D

Don Klipstein

indeed, but that does not imply that the new fitting will be more
reilable or as reilable as the old. On the whole it tends to be the
other way round. One only need think bathtub curve to see that. Then
theres the 2nd factor of a more price-aggressive market today. So its
no surprise new goods dont have anything like the life expectancy of
older kit.

Electronic components are getting less expensive and sturdier, more
robust. Circuit designs are improved upon those that failed the test of
time.

Bigger iron core items of older technology have not enjoyed as much
reduction in production cost.
Maybe then you could explain to us how travelling out to get a new
fitting and putting it up will save more energy than the 7w the older
fitting would consume with a T12 tube. Or even more to the point, the
smaller amount of energy difference involved in using a T8 in an older
fitting.

Modern USA 2-tube fixture with electronic ballast and two F32T8 lamps
often has the lamps receiving guesstimate 29 watts each (most fluorescent
lamps at a given current have both a slight decrease in power consumption
when frequency gets to a few KHz or more and a very slight increase in
light output when the frequency gets into the dozens of KHz), so the
fixture consumes fairly close to 64 watts.

The USA-traditional dual-F40 fixture had the lamps receiving 40 watts
each plus ballast loss that I guesstimate to be not much under 10 watts -
for power consumption in the upper 80's of watts, approaching 90 watts.

So I believe that replacing F40T12 lamps with F32T8 ones and replacing
the traditional dual-F40 ballast with an electronic one for two F32T8
lamps will reduce power consumption by somewhere around 24-25 watts.

Also, all popular F32T8 lamps made for "general lighting purpose" are
triphosphor. These do not dull/darken most red objects and green objects
the way most non-triphosphor fluorescents do. Non-triphosphor includes
even most fluorescents with color rendering index around 90-92 although
that range dulls/darkens reds/greens less than "old tech cool white and
warm white".
The OP has a T8 compatible system already. The OP is not in America.

1. I am speaking from and for America, the land of opportunity, including
a megatonnage of fluorescent fixtures having significant room for
improvement.

2. In a fixture having a magnetic 2-lamp rapid start ballast for two
T8 lamps, replacement of the ballast with an electronic one will
probably save more than 7 watts, since not only is the ballast loss
reduced but also the lamps can be fed a little less power. This even goes
to extent of giving the lamps only 29 or 28 or so watts each - slight
shortfall in initial lumens is partially balanced out by improvement in
lumen maintenance. Also, many lamps at same current consume 1-2 watts
less at high frequency (a few KHz or more) than at low frequency due
to reduction of a frequency-sensitive "anode fall" loss that most
fluorescent lamps have.
If the ballast output frequency is high enough for the "imprisonment
duration" of a 253.7 nm photon to get above or even into the ballpark of a
1/2-cycle of the ballast output frequency, then the RMS "electron
temperature"/"free electron kinetic energy" should be a couple/few
hundredths of an eV less than if the lamp received low frequency AC and
that can reduce the ratio of 184.9/253.7 nm radiation to an extent
sufficient to have a slightly significant impact on phosphor
deterioration.
Lamps alone can have power reduction about 7 watts per pair by replacing
a non-electronmic ballast with an electronic one, even without change of
lamps. Ballast loss redution is an additional couple to a few watts.
Savings get much bigger (typically over 20 watts per 2-"bulbs") in the
many opportunities in "The Land of Opportunity" where such a change also
includes replacing F40T12 lamps with F32T8 ones. The nominal "per bulb"
wattage is decreased by 8 watts as in 16 watts per pair, in addition to
the roughly 7-watt-per-pair underpowering that modern electronic ballasts
fairly easily afford and in addition to saving a couple to a few watts in
ballast losses from use of better higher efficiency electronic ballasts.
That sounds to me like power consumption decrease of roughly 25 watts
per pair of 4-footers from replacing T12 lamps and the iron-core ballasts
for those with T8 lamps and an electronic ballast for T8 lamps.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

machinery strobing is possible with mag ballasts, but doesnt normally
happen, and does not make it look stationary even when it does. Its not
as much of an issue as is often thought, even in workshops. In a house
its a non issue. And cake mixers are well interlocked :)

Although I agree with these presented facts, I do not find majority
extent (slightly short of 100% even if hardly) of negation of some
advantages of electronic ballasts to be any argument at all against
arguments on basis of unrelated issues such as energy efficiency (reduce
power consumption anywhere from roughly 7 watts to roughly 25 watts per
pair of 4-footers, depending on who you listen to and also depending on
what you do! Replace a pair of F40T12's and a non-electronic ballast for
these with a pair of F32T8's and an electronic ballast for those and power
consumption has a good chance of being decreased by roughly 24-25 watts -
along with a majority of red and green colored objects being illuminated
more brightly!

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
A

Andrew Gabriel

Although I agree with these presented facts, I do not find majority
extent (slightly short of 100% even if hardly) of negation of some
advantages of electronic ballasts to be any argument at all against
arguments on basis of unrelated issues such as energy efficiency (reduce
power consumption anywhere from roughly 7 watts to roughly 25 watts per
pair of 4-footers, depending on who you listen to and also depending on
what you do! Replace a pair of F40T12's and a non-electronic ballast for
these with a pair of F32T8's and an electronic ballast for those and power
consumption has a good chance of being decreased by roughly 24-25 watts -
along with a majority of red and green colored objects being illuminated
more brightly!

Don,
bear in mind that T12 fittings mostly vanished in the UK ~25 years
ago, and also that T8 tubes outside the US/120V have different power
ratings (they are designed to be used on the former T12 series
ballasts, so 20W, 40W, 65W T12's become 18W, 36W, 58W T8's, so they
can be used in most old T12 fittings).

T12 tubes are still available in larger retail outlets, but volumes
are tiny compared with T8's, and smaller retail outlets won't stock
T12's at all. Commercially, T12's haven't been used for a long time
except for special applications.
 
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