reliability of Pioneer plasma sets

[William Sommerwerck]

I am now the proud and absolutely delighted owner of a Pioneer plasma TV.
The first thing I watched was "Amadeus", and though my expectations were
unnaturally high, the Pioneer handily exceeded them. Simply unbelievable.

The set has a two-year in-home warranty on parts and labor, which strikes me
as a bit short for such a product. (It really "should" be three years. Five
would be even nicer.)

I can get an extended warranty for $1000. Said warranty extends Pioneer's
warranty by only two years, but it is a complete replacement warranty.
Should the set have three service problems of any kind (even minor ones, and
they needn't be the same), or any unrepairable problem, the set will be
replaced outright.

Of course, in a little less than a year, there won't be any more Pioneer
plasmas to replace mine with. The installers said there had been major
problems with about 5% of the Pioneers. That's not a high number, but the 1
in 20 probability of losing such a major investment leaves me a bit
uncomfortable.

I don't feel like laying out another kilobuck. And though my experiences
with consumer electronics over the past 45 years has been overwhelmingly
positive (I've never had anything expensive break down -- other than my
brand K amplification), I don't like the idea of getting a bit more than 2
years' use out of a product and then having to toss it (either because the
parts aren't available, or I can't afford the repair).

This is what is called a dilemma ("two horns", in Greek).

Any views on the reliability of Pioneer plasma?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

Any views on the reliability of Pioneer plasma?

FWIW, I notice that LG plasma TVs have a 1 year warranty whereas their
LCD TVs have 3 years. This would suggest that plasma panels are
inherently less reliable than LCDs.

As you have said, Pioneer appear to be getting out of the TV business:
http://hdguru.com/pioneer-to-exit-the-tv-business/366/

Last year they began outsourcing production of plasma panels to
Panasonic/Matsushita, so a more appropriate question might be the
reliability of Panasonic panels.

On the plus side, I notice that Pioneer will sometimes sell you
individual ICs (eg scan IC) rather than the whole PCB.

You may want to check some parts prices here:
http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/part.asp?productNum=SN755870KPZT-P

This article recommends against an extended warranty:
http://www.mysimon.com/4002-9375-6309568.html

"Our most recent survey found few repair problems during the first
three years of use for plasma sets from Panasonic, Pioneer, and
Samsung. ... Our surveys of thousands of consumers show that plasma
flat-panel TVs have been very reliable for the first three years --
the time covered by many extended warranties -- so there's little
sense in spending several hundred dollars for such a warranty."

- Franc Zabkar

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

As you have said, Pioneer appear to be getting out of the TV business:
http://hdguru.com/pioneer-to-exit-the-tv-business/366/

It's a shame. Pioneer has made some great high-end video equipment, and they
supported LV more vigorously than anyone else. (I still have the LD-S2,
perhaps the best LV player ever made.)

Last year they began outsourcing production of plasma panels to
Panasonic/Matsushita, so a more appropriate question might be the
reliability of Panasonic panels.

Actually, the problem is that Matsushita has not gotten around to building
the plant they promised.

I do find it puzzling that Matsushita could build panels more cheaply than
Pioneer. Aren't they all working from the same labor pool (wherever it might
be)?

On the plus side, I notice that Pioneer will sometimes sell you
individual ICs (eg scan IC) rather than the whole PCB.

That assumes you know which part is required! I'm not worried about parts or
boards as much as I am about the panel.

"Our most recent survey found few repair problems during the first
three years of use for plasma sets from Panasonic, Pioneer, and
Samsung. ... Our surveys of thousands of consumers show that
plasma flat-panel TVs have been very reliable for the first three years --
the time covered by many extended warranties -- so there's little
sense in spending several hundred dollars for such a warranty."

I've bought very few extended warranties, on the assumption that all the
money I save not buying them will more than cover the cost of repairing the
few items that do. This has proved to be the truth (in my experience
anyway).

 

[William Sommerwerck]

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 06:55:50 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"

My very limited experience with plasma displays is that the failures
are usually in the electronics or power supply, not the tube. However,
the tube will be prematurely ruined by leaving it on the program guide
causing burn-in. Overheating, due to in the wall or cabinet
installations that lack sufficient ventilation is another culprit. Of
course, the big tube is fairly fragile and will not survive the impact
of the kids indoor baseball game.

The actual failure curve for a system has peaks at the beginning and
end of life, with a flat curve in between.

The initial failures are called "infant mortality".

The initial peak is usually manufacturing defects and are covered under
the warranty. Those usually show up within a year. At the end of life,
components that degrade due to temperature effects or thermal cycling,
will cause failures. In between, a random assortment of failures might occur,
but the rate is very low.

I'll have to ask Magnolia what sorts of repairs those 5% comprise. The only
thing I'm worried about is the display panel. And although the Federal
government requires electronic parts to be available for 10 years after end
of manufacturing, I wonder whether Pioneer will have any stock of panels
after 2012. The government does not enforce these laws very well (if at all.

Picky point... "Degrade" is a transitive verb, not reflexive. You mean
"deteriorate" or "fail".

The big problem with repairing a plasma TV is the size and weight. It
just can't be dragged to the service shop or warranty repair station
easily or economically. So, if a trivial part fails, it's a truck
roll and a major production. TV repairmen still make house calls, but
you'll pay handsomely for the effort. Or, you can drag it down to the
few remaining repair shops.

According to Magnolia, warranties include in-home service.

 

[b]

Any views on the reliability of Pioneer plasma?

Thanks in advance.

The pioneers I used to see were all ITT chasis, back in the day of the
CRT!

Personally, I don't think it was wise to invest in this set for
various reasons.
a)the manufacturer is getting out of the business which is bad news
for after sales support, parts etc.
b) production of plasma sets is to be ceased if it hasn't been
already. As such, it could even be seen, in tech terms, as 'old
technology'.
c)fragility and screen burn problems mentioned above.
:-/
B

 

[William Sommerwerck]

b) production of plasma sets is to be ceased if it hasn't been

already. As such, it could even be seen, in tech terms, as 'old
technology'.

I'm curious as to where you got this information. It's amazing how an
"old-technology" set is generally considered to be the best direct-view TV
made.

 

[Arfa Daily]

The pioneers I used to see were all ITT chasis, back in the day of the
CRT!

Personally, I don't think it was wise to invest in this set for
various reasons.
a)the manufacturer is getting out of the business which is bad news
for after sales support, parts etc.
b) production of plasma sets is to be ceased if it hasn't been
already. As such, it could even be seen, in tech terms, as 'old
technology'.
c)fragility and screen burn problems mentioned above.
:-/
B

Screen burn is not so much of a problem as it was in the early days. Most
sets have a service mode which 'washes' the panel, and in many cases, will
remove all but the most 'burnt-in' burns.

On a slightly different note, anyone heard what point SED technology has
reached now ? I believed that there was some legal issue between
manufacturers at one point, but that it had been resolved, and large screen
SED based sets were due to be hitting the market by the end of last year.
Can't say that I've seen any yet. I wonder whether it has become a 'shelved'
technology as a result of the economic downturn, and the strong foothold
that LCD has now established in the market ?

Arfa

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Screen burn is not so much of a problem as it was in the

early days. Most sets have a service mode which "washes"
the panel, and in many cases, will remove all but the most
"burnt-in" burns.

After two days of hot-n-heavy viewing (Saturday and Sunday), I turned on the
"wash" mode and let it run for an hour.

On a slightly different note, anyone heard what point SED
technology has reached now ? I believed that there was some
legal issue between manufacturers at one point, but that it had
been resolved...

That's what I've heard.


.... and large-screen SED-based sets were due to be hitting the

market by the end of last year.

I'd wanted to wait for SED, but gave up when I heard about the legal
wrangling. Given the current economy and the generally strong sales of both
plasma and LCD sets, it's unlikely we'll see SED sets that soon, if ever.

Can't say that I've seen any yet. I wonder whether it has become a
"shelved" technology as a result of the economic downturn, and the
strong foothold that LCD has now established in the market?

Very likely.


On the 3D front... Matsushita has announced it's working on a
frame-sequential 1080-line system that will be generally compatible with
existing players and displays. Besides the new stuff, there are lots of
classic 3D films: "Creature from the Black Lagoon" (and its first sequel),
"The Maze", "House of Wax", "Dial M for Murder", "It Came from Outer Space",
"Kiss Me, Kate", "Hondo", and that stinker de tutti stinkers, "Robot
Monster".

 

[A_H]

One general principle-- the harder the salespeople push for you to buy
an item, the higher the
profit to them and lousier value to you.

In particular, all those places that push for "extended warranties",
they can often triple their profit just on the warranty part.

And collecting on the warranty can be a real hassle. Not like the
smiling attractive people in the glossy warranty brochure, you'll be
writing and calling and getting put on hold for months if you try to
collect on the warranty.

 

[Arfa Daily]

Patience. The patent attorneys must all be fed first. This article
covers the technology and legal wrangling (near the bottom):
<http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/525928.html>

That's interesting. I see that the original question was posted back in
2005, and it looked as though a resolution to the legal problems was
expected in fairly short order, back then.

But isn't this just typical ? The eco-bollox green mist brigade jump on
every dubious 'mis-use' of energy, such as getting 'proper' light bulbs
banned world-wide in favour of dreadful substitutes like CFLs, and here we
are with a technology that uses half the power of a CRT, a third the power
of a plasma panel, and although it doesn't state the ratio with LCDs will be
at least a third of those if not less, and which could actually make a big
difference, whilst *improving* the picture over the current flat screen
technologies, and they let it just fester as a result of one company getting
arsey with another !

Makes you wonder who has got an interest in not letting this technology out
onto the mass market ...

Arfa

 

[William Sommerwerck]

But isn't this just typical? The eco-bollox green mist brigade jump on

every dubious 'mis-use' of energy, such as getting 'proper' light bulbs
banned world-wide in favour of dreadful substitutes like CFLs...

Arfa, try putting a CFL in a glass or plastic fixture. You might be
pleasantly surprised.

Except for the bathroom, where the CFLs are directly exposed (above the
mirror), the others are in IKEA fixtures. You can't tell they're not
incandescent. They look great.

 

[Arfa Daily]

Arfa, try putting a CFL in a glass or plastic fixture. You might be
pleasantly surprised.

Except for the bathroom, where the CFLs are directly exposed (above the
mirror), the others are in IKEA fixtures. You can't tell they're not
incandescent. They look great.

I have. I currently have one in a bathroom 'globe' fitting. It takes a
quarter second to start, which although is a very short time, is still long
enough for your dumb old brain to think "sod it, the bulb's gone ..." every
single time you go in there. After it does start, for the first 20 seconds,
the light is like a candle shining through a glass of piss. After that time,
the light output ramps up until it is like standing on Venus with the sun at
your back.

The colour of the light is sick and rancid. I have another in an outside
light. During the winter, that is just about giving its full quota of light,
by the time it's dawn, and time for it to go off again.

I have another in the hallway in a Tiffany style shade. It too takes a
quarter second to strike, and again, the light output ramps up over perhaps
a minute. The colours of the glass lozenges in the shade shine in a kind of
dull way, instead of producing the vibrant colours that you associate with
this style of shade, and which you get when the fitting has a normal
incandescent bulb fitted.

My wife has one in the lamp on her side of the bed. When it's on, the room
has a strange 'green' feel to it - even though it's predominantly pink and
magnolia.

About the best one I have, is in the table light which is about 2 feet away
from me right now, and even the light from that has a slightly 'sick'
quality about it. All of these lamps are from different manufacturers. I
have tried to like them based on the fact that incandescent manufacture is
slowly ceasing. I really have. But try as I might, I can't. I don't like the
way they perform. I don't like the colour rendering index, and I
particularly don't like the utter bollox that the green mist brigade spout
about how environmentally friendly they are. They are nothing of the sort.
The only positive factor is the energy consumption, which is the only thing
about them that is rammed down everyone's throats, and the only factor that
Joe Public understands. The many negative factors involved in the
manufacture, transport, use and ultimate disposal of them, is conveniently
ignored or glossed over. They are not by any stretch of the imagination a
'replacement' technology for incandescent lamps. They are a substitute, and
not a very good one at that.

Arfa

 

[William Sommerwerck]

I have. I currently have one in a bathroom 'globe' fitting. It takes a

quarter second to start, which although is a very short time, is still long
enough for your dumb old brain to think "sod it, the bulb's gone ..." every
single time you go in there.

My cheap Chinese CFLs from Home Despot start instantly -- faster than an
incandescent. (That's not a joke. They don't "ramp up" the way an
incandescent does. Blam, they're on)

After it does start, for the first 20 seconds,
the light is like a candle shining through a glass of piss.

Mine are fairly bright to start, but take about 30 seconds to reach full
brightness. The color is okay from the start.

The colour of the light is sick and rancid. I have another in an outside
light. During the winter, that is just about giving its full quota of light,
by the time it's dawn, and time for it to go off again.

Not mine. They aren't up to photographic CFLs, but they're close.

My wife has one in the lamp on her side of the bed. When it's on, the room
has a strange 'green' feel to it - even though it's predominantly pink and
magnolia.

Those are Really Bad CFLs.

It's no wonder you don't like CFLs. You just haven't seen any decent ones.

 

[Arfa Daily]

You're right William, because for *me*, I'm dubious that a *decent* one
that's readily available, actually exists, If I haven't managed to find one
in the several years that I've been trying, then it's a bit of a lost cause.
It's a f'kin light bulb for Christ's sake ! I want to be able to just go to
my supermarket and buy whatever is there, stick 'em in the fitting, and have
light that doesn't give me suicidal tendencies ... (that my eyes can
actually read under !)

I guess if you don't like 'em, you just don't. A bit like the way that you
just don't like some particular brands of audio gear, no matter what others
think of them ...

And how on earth do you see the light output from an incandescent 'ramp up'
? That really *must* be as a result of that low voltage American electricity
.... I can honestly say that I have never in all my years seen a traditional
incandescent bulb start slowly enough to be able to see it do so. Possible
exception to this is some halogen bulbs in decorative fittings, but as there
are not CFLs to directly replace those, it's hard to use them as a
comparison. Also, a lot of the low voltage halogens are driven these days by
'electronic transformers' which may well 'soft start', giving the ramping up
effect.

Even if you have found CFLs over there that satisfy you as to their
suitability for the job, that still doesn't address the many negative
aspects of them over incandescents, which are conveniently ignored to serve
the green lobby's arguments on end-point energy useage.

Arfa

 

[William Sommerwerck]

You're right William, because for *me*, I'm dubious that a *decent* one

that's readily available, actually exists, If I haven't managed to find one
in the several years that I've been trying, then it's a bit of a lost cause.
It's a f'kin light bulb for Christ's sake ! I want to be able to just go to
my supermarket and buy whatever is there, stick 'em in the fitting, and have
light that doesn't give me suicidal tendencies ... (that my eyes can
actually read under !)

I guess if you don't like 'em, you just don't.

I disagree strongly. You have GOOD REASONS not to like the ones you've seen.

And how on earth do you see the light output from an incandescent 'ramp up'
? That really *must* be as a result of that low voltage American

electricity.

I have no trouble seeing it. An incandescent bulb takes a fraction of a
second to reach full brightness, and this is plainly visible. 220V bubls
should be no different.

... I can honestly say that I have never in all my years seen a traditional
incandescent bulb start slowly enough to be able to see it do so.

That's because you assume they come on "instantly". They don't.

Even if you have found CFLs over there that satisfy you as to their
suitability for the job, that still doesn't address the many negative
aspects of them over incandescents, which are conveniently ignored
to servethe green lobby's arguments on end-point energy useage.

Such as the fact they use more materials in their manufacture? This has to
be weighed against how long they last and how much energy they (don't) use
over their lifespan.

 

[Arfa Daily]

">> Even if you have found CFLs over there that satisfy you as to their

Such as the fact they use more materials in their manufacture? This has to
be weighed against how long they last and how much energy they (don't) use
over their lifespan.

They have many more manufacturing processes. They use many more processed
materials in their construction. It requires many more factories to make the
materials for the capacitors, resistors, inductors, semiconductors PCBs,
phosphors, and then many factories to make those materials into capacitors,
inductors etc. Then all of those components have to be shipped to whoever
makes the electronic ballast. Then that has to be shipped to the lamp
manufacturer. The glass discharge tube requires a much more complex process
to manufacture it, and coat its inside with toxic chemicals, than is needed
to make the simple glass globe of a conventional incandescent. Then that too
has to be shipped to the lamp manufacturer. When they've finally built the
thing, it has to be put in much more substantial packaging than a standard
light bulb, because the discharge tube is fragile, and its contents
potentially dangerous. Then the whole item, which weighs a lot more than a
conventional light bulb, has to be shipped to wherever it's going to be
sold. All of the many many processes involved, require workers that need to
be got to and from the factories where they work. Then when they're there,
they have to be kept warm or cool, lit, and fed. When the lamp has reached
the end of its life, it has to be taken to a collection facility, because
they are considered to be too dangerous to go into the regular household
trash. Aside from that factor, countries within the EU have a mandate to
recycle any electronic equipment. And so it all starts again, with shipping,
dismantling, recycling and all of the processes and workers which that
involves.

So no, I'm not talking *just* about the additional materials that are in
them.

And as an amusing twist of irony, guess what happened to the one in the
wife's bedside light tonight ? Yep. That's right. It failed. Totally. 10,000
hours ? Ha ! 6 months tops of 20 minutes per night ...

These things are useless shite. On a stick.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

I had similar opinions about CFL bulbs for quite a while. They just
looked reddish with a color temp of about 2500K. One of my former
customers is a lighting store. While working on their machines, I
asked if they had any CFL bulbs with a higher color temperature
approaching daylight at about 5500K. Nope, but some of the "natural
light" bulbs were rated at 3500K, which was worth a try. They looked
somewhat better and as an added bonus, didn't blow up after a few
weeks of operation. A few months later, the "daylight" series of
bulbs arrived at 5000K and up, which were a major improvement.

Most of the discount store CFL bulbs are unrated by color temperature.
Little wonder as I suspect they use whatever bulbs they can buy from
an assortment of vendors. No specs means no consistency.

Some of the bulbs I've used have a fairly long turn on time. This
bugs me but not enough to be concerned. I've learned to live with the
delay.

It's an odd thing, this CRI and colour temperature. I haven't really been
able to figure why I have no problem at all with working under linear
flourescents, no matter whether they are white, daylight or warm white, and
yet, I find there to be something fundamentally 'wrong' with the light from
CFLs, no matter what colour they are. I also have trouble reading under
them, but no problem with linear flourescents. Also, the strike up time, and
sometimes several attempts at striking of a linear, doesn't bother me a jot,
but that brief delay in startup of a CFL bugs the life out of me. Strange
....

Today, I bought two new light fittings for my lounge. Each uses G9 halogen
bulbs, so I hope that these are going to continue to be around for a while !

Arfa

 

[William Sommerwerck]

It's an odd thing, this CRI and colour temperature. I haven't really been

able to figure why I have no problem at all with working under linear
flourescents, no matter whether they are white, daylight or warm white, and
yet, I find there to be something fundamentally 'wrong' with the light from
CFLs, no matter what colour they are. I also have trouble reading under
them, but no problem with linear flourescents. Also, the strike up time, and
sometimes several attempts at striking of a linear, doesn't bother me a jot,
but that brief delay in startup of a CFL bugs the life out of me. Strange.

Wish I had an answer. I have several Lowell "ego" lights that use CFLs with
a CRI over 90. You can shoot photos at 5500K, and they come out fine.

Either there's something "wrong" with your color vision (which I doubt), or
you just haven't seen good CFLs. Believe me, they exist.

 

[[email protected]]

The pioneers I used to see were all ITT chasis, back in the day of the
CRT!

ITT/SEL probably, except for the ones that used Philips or Thomson
chassis... But that was for the European market. The North American models
might come from a different source. I think RPTV's and Plasma sets were
made by Pioneer themselves.

 

[[email protected]]

I have no trouble seeing it. An incandescent bulb takes a fraction of a
second to reach full brightness, and this is plainly visible. 220V bubls
should be no different.

If someone doesn't see it, have them looking at a car with LED
turn-signals and compare the result to looking at a car with incandescent
turn-signals. They will see the difference.