Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Recommendation for electronics forums?

M

mike

Jeff said:
Locally, we have about 2800 licensed hams in the county, of which I
would guess about 500 are at least semi-active, 100 regularly attend
various club meetings, 50 bother to build things, and perhaps 4 are
qualified to design anything useful. While it's possible to get some
help with design and construction from ham radio, it really depends on
whom you contact.

Valid point, although I think you exaggerate a bit.

Now, give those same numbers for the denizens of sci.electronics.repair.
Maybe two numbers, with and without the profuse few who insist
on pushing the SNR toward zero.

I'd also like to hear your estimate of the percentage that even
attempt to add USEFUL new information that helps answer the
original question. Percentages by post will be different than percentage
by author.
And the percentage that just want to argue for the sake of arguing,
name calling, backstabbing, "hey look how smart I think I am", etc.

On any subject, it's important to ask someone who knows what he's talking
about.
Unfortunately, there are precious few of them.
Most get drowned out by the multitude.
Some of them ARE hams.
-.-
 
M

Meat Plow

Right. Sure. Maybe in your small world. I recently went to the
local ham radio club's hamfest. 99% of the items for sale were cheap
chinese crap that is even cheaer on Ebay. the hams that knew what they
were doing have either quit the hobby, or are now 'Silent Keys'. I saw
more computer related items than radio, and the couple vendors with
components had no one at their tables.

When a few of us used to go in on a table at a hamfest we'd go dig in the
attic or basement for a bunch of junk to sell. I used to go to Dayton Oh
every year but that started being a joke. Most junk and computers. A few
vendors from Kenwood, Yaesu, Alinco, MFD etc.. Not like it was 20 years
ago.
 
G

Geoffrey S. Mendelson

Michael said:
More like 1975, not 2011 and this isn't Israel.

Actually that's the US, and not here. In Israel there are 600 or so licensed
hams, with about 250 in the IARC. With an almost 100% draft/national service,
there is no need for hams as emergency communications.

There were about 50 to 100 more two years ago, but the government sent out
bills to renew the licenses and they decided it was not worth the money.

There are plenty of radios in the government and IDF (military) and between
previous experience in the military, annual reserve duty, and volunteer
units (such as the border police, etc) there is absolutely no need for hams.

The other big privleges/service the hams did was phone patches, which have
been obsolete since 1997 when the price of international calls became
cheaper than cross country ones and cell phones became cheap.

In fact the IARC decided to do a drill this year just to do one, and they
scheduled on the sabbath, which meant that 99% of the hams in Jerusalem and
environment would not participate. It was like the ARRL scheduling a nationwide
emergency drill without Maryland, Virgina, DC and so on.


There are plenty of commercial FM radios around, and all the county
radios are digital. The only amateur related emergency gear is the
club's HF station, near the county offices. They don't have a spare
tower, or antennas that could be erected in a couple hours and there is
no way in hell they could put up a replacement commercial digital radio
base station or cell phone tower, even if they had months.

They don't need one. The ARRL's purpose in these drills is to do "health and
welfare" messages e.g. "your aunt Matilda's ok in a shelter, but her house
washed away". This is to offload that work from NGOs like the Red Cross
and Salvation Army, so they can provide relief services.

There also is no need to replace commercial digital radio base stations
or cell phone towers, etc. There are plenty of people in the world who can
do that, once the dust settles they will. It's the first few days that
are critical.

If things work properly, then the hams come in provide communications in
the background for the "victims" without getting in the way.

I know the hams here could not do it, and the ones that could would be
back with their reserve units anyway. but here ham radio has never been
much more than a hobby.

Going back to David's question, I pointed out ham radio because he could
use it to connect with someone who did know what he wanted and would be
willing to help him. Someone pooh-poohed the idea because they wanted one
to one instruction, which they would not of gotten from a web forum, which
was the original request.

It all comes down to expecting that someone who actually knows op-amps and
is willing to answer questions about them is going to spend their time
looking for and answering questions on a web forum.

99% of the questions asked on web forums are so basic that they are a waste
of time to answer and the self proclaimed experts are unable to answer
even those.

BTW, did Don Lancaster ever update his "OP Amp Cookbook"?

Geoff.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

In Israel there are 600 or so licensed hams...

It's amazing there are ANY!
 
M

Meat Plow

How did you miss that I specifically requested an online forum, not
other Usenet newsgroups? It's right up there in the very first sentence
I wrote, for chrissakes.

Remember Dave, honey attracts more flies than vinegar :)
 
D

David Nebenzahl

or are both
good. You get more hand holding in the .basic group, but you see the
same people from the .design group. They have more patience on the
.basic group which is intended to teach electronics, while the .design
group is to trade ideas between professional designers.

How did you miss that I specifically requested an online forum, not
other Usenet newsgroups? It's right up there in the very first sentence
I wrote, for chrissakes.
 
D

D Yuniskis

Hi David,

Interesting suggestion, but highly impractical for me for several reasons.

First of all, it would require a whole 'nother pursuit--getting the
license AND acquiring/building/setting up a radio rig, which is
definitely *not* what I'm the least bit interested in at this point.

Getting a "Technician" license would require about an evening
of your time -- plus travel to/from exam. And, I think, $6 (?)
exam fee. No need to set up a radio, etc. Just like getting
a driver's license doesn't require you to own -- or even
DRIVE! -- a car.

[But, I understand your point...]
Then there's the problem of the medium. Web fora are perfect for my
porpoises: I can easily send text and images, and receive the same. With
radio, I'd have to exhaustively describe every little detail of what I'm
trying to do. And unless I had some kind of radio-fax setup, whereby I
could transmit images (and images of extremely shitty quality at that),
how would I exchange schematics with other hams? Email? or, ironically,
posting them on the Web?

You have access to all the same media with a ham license. The
point is, you (can) "hang with a different crowd". Hopefully
one that, at a minimum, knows that electrical power is measured
in Watts, inductance is expressed in Henries and that a current of
2 amps flowing through a resistance of 3 ohms develops a potential
of 6 volts.

I.e., questions that separate the "men" from the... um... I
forget...

[I think that about sums up the Technician Class, eh? :> ]

A good bit of the license information deals with *regulations*
and conduct/expectations/responsibility/etc.
Sorry, not a good suggestion. I will say, though, that I do have a copy
of the ARRL Handbook (1991) which has been quite useful, if a bit out of
date.

I don't think the license itself will buy you anything
towards your goal (though, as an aside, you might consider
downloading the question pools for the various license
classes and wading through the "technical" questions /cold/
to get a feel for just how much you actually already *know*.
This could be encouraging -- or discouraging -- to you.)

Rather, the real value is getting you exposed to that
sort of person. Sort of like hanging around a sports bar
(instead of a LIBRARY) if you are interested in learning
about sports...

(google: technician ham questions)
 
D

David Nebenzahl

I think you have to refine your overall goals/interests.
There are many places you can find out "how to use an op amp"
(or, "how an op amp works", etc.).

But, what you *want* to use that op amp for is probably where
you will get far more pertinent information/advice if you can
refine your needs better.

E.g., using an op amp to design a battery charger is different
than using an op amp to buffer the pickup from an electric
guitar or to implement a feedback loop in a robotic servo
controller.

Be that as it may, I went ahead and joined the first forum that was
suggested here (Electro-Tech Online, http://www.electro-tech-online.com)
and whaddya know, I got answers--pretty good ones--within an hour that
allowed me to get parts of my project working. Maybe it's not the
definitive, be-all and end-all of understanding op amp operation that
you seem to be suggesting, but that isn't what I asked for anyhow. I'm
just trying to muddle through at this point.

Actually, I have a pretty good textbook which probably has all the
answers I need, if I can only understand them: Albert Malvino's
/Electronic Principles/ (actually fished out of a dumpster!). It's
extremely well-written and explains all about op amp operation,
including the four feedback configurations (SP/SS/PP/PS), calculating
gain and impedance, and various op amp applications. Now if I can only
get over having to deal with the math (ugh!) ...
 
D

David Nebenzahl

Get a ham license. Then you can find people who actively design and build
things, like to talk about them and would gladly help you.

Not quite a web forum, but more personal.

Interesting suggestion, but highly impractical for me for several reasons.

First of all, it would require a whole 'nother pursuit--getting the
license AND acquiring/building/setting up a radio rig, which is
definitely *not* what I'm the least bit interested in at this point.

Then there's the problem of the medium. Web fora are perfect for my
porpoises: I can easily send text and images, and receive the same. With
radio, I'd have to exhaustively describe every little detail of what I'm
trying to do. And unless I had some kind of radio-fax setup, whereby I
could transmit images (and images of extremely shitty quality at that),
how would I exchange schematics with other hams? Email? or, ironically,
posting them on the Web?

Sorry, not a good suggestion. I will say, though, that I do have a copy
of the ARRL Handbook (1991) which has been quite useful, if a bit out of
date.
 
D

D Yuniskis

Hi David,

Be that as it may, I went ahead and joined the first forum that was
suggested here (Electro-Tech Online, http://www.electro-tech-online.com)
and whaddya know, I got answers--pretty good ones--within an hour that
allowed me to get parts of my project working. Maybe it's not the

Great! Then you're set -- for now.
definitive, be-all and end-all of understanding op amp operation that

No, quite the contrary. If you know *everything* about op amps,
then there is no difference between applications -- because you
already know all the little details that differentiate one
type of application from another.

My point was, if you find a group that is dealing with the same
types of applications that you are wanting to address, then they
will have already tweaked the "oversimplification" of what an
op amp is by appending "... except, you have to do ________ when
you use it *this* way _______" to that description. I.e., they
will have highlighted the details that are important in *that*
type of application (e.g., if you are running with a single
supply instead of balanced supplies, needing more voltage
compliance in your output than the op amp can provide, etc.)

Most of "design" is figuring out which details to *ignore* and
which to *pursue*. A group of folks working on similar
applications will have already sorted that out for you.

[I recall designing (passive) speaker crossover networks with
a friend at school. He always had "50 ..." as his expressions.
I finally asked him where the heck he kept coming up with this
"50"?? Ans: 2 * pi * 8 ohms (more or less)

D'oh!
you seem to be suggesting, but that isn't what I asked for anyhow. I'm
just trying to muddle through at this point.

Actually, I have a pretty good textbook which probably has all the
answers I need, if I can only understand them: Albert Malvino's
/Electronic Principles/ (actually fished out of a dumpster!). It's
extremely well-written and explains all about op amp operation,
including the four feedback configurations (SP/SS/PP/PS), calculating
gain and impedance, and various op amp applications. Now if I can only
get over having to deal with the math (ugh!) ...

I started with Senturia & Wedlock's _Electronic Circuits and
Applications_ (and, before that, just reading data sheets). It
was one of those "good" books that predated the "sold by the
pound" trend that seems to have infected "modern" writing :<
(though it was $20+ about 35 years ago!)

There also were "Made Simple" books aeons ago (When Dinosaurs
Walked the Earth). These were the precursors of the "For Dummies"
books -- but infinitely more intense! Highly condensed but
very good to get exposed to a lot in very few pages.
(e.g., "Electronics Made Simple")
 
D

D Yuniskis

Hi Jeff,

On 3/20/2011 4:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

[attributions elided]
Actually, very accessible, if they're interested. We have a local

-----------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I seem to recall making comments to that effect ;-)
startup, Elecraft, that makes ham radio kits and accessories. Most of
the qualified hams in the area are now working for them.
<http://www.elecraft.com>
There's not much design work being done locally, but the engineers and
techs certainly know how the radios operate.


I have a similar problem. When I was still designing electronics, the
major obsession was reducing the cost. At that time, it meant
reducing the component count. If you get my attention, I can waste
enormous amounts of time, on futile exercises in component count
reduction. Same with unusual ways to implement simple things.

In the mid 70's, I had to design a replacement "front panel"
for a Nova (2 or 3... I can't recall) minicomputer. This is
the vintage equipment where you "bit-switched" (toggled) data
into memory (real core!), forced a value into the program counter
and then hit "run".

The actual front panel was bulky -- all those "bats" on the front
panel switches plus plastic molding, etc. Since the machine
only had to do certain very fixed things (I guess it qualified as
an "embedded system" -- even though the processor was the size
of a small washing machine!), it was silly to ship the bulky
panel with the unit.

The panel worked by driving values onto an "open collector" bus
and stroking control lines. So, any replacement "front panel"
needed logic to interface to a few dedicated switches (reset,
IPL, etc.), decode logic to drive the right values onto the
bus, some crude timing (remember, we are emulating things that
a human being does "by hand") and, of course, open collector
drivers to actually *drive* the bus.

I ended up with a design that used a 7 segment decoder (!)
wired in a bizarre way to (coincidentally) get the right
values onto the bus based on an examination of the switch
states connected to the BCD inputs thereof. (this predates
FPGAs, GALs and even *PLAs*!)

My boss was impressed -- but too scared to risk such a bizarre
implementation: "How will anyone ever know how it is *supposed*
to work?" (to me, that was pretty obvious: the devices work
just like any other devices... read the data sheet!)
You can get a fair idea of the number of hams by diving into the FCC
ULS database and searching for counts by your local zip codes.
<http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/searchAmateur.jsp>
For 95005 (Ben Lomond, CA), it shows 61 licenses. Unfortunately, the
FCC updates the data perhaps every 10 years, so some hams that have
moved out or died are still listed.

Lots of ZIP codes in 9000 square miles. I'll leave that as an
exercise for the student...
Worse, most hams seem to live in post office boxes.

Yes. Though, if you're smart, you use a non-USPS "p.o.box"
We have one local supplier (other than Radio Shock). They're
expensive, but not outrageous.
<http://www.santacruzelectronics.com>

I bought some small lytic's for ~$2/ea. C'mon, now... (then
they complain when folks buy mail-order from firms out-of-state!)
Yep. Just finding the part in my mess is difficult. However, I do
have a fairly good collection of 1980's vintage discrete parts, which
are useful for raising the dead and repairing the antiques.

I find more use for *hardware* (screws, connectors, etc.) than
"components". As I get older, time is more valuable to me than
"mundane cost saving experiences" (though I replaced a power
cord on a make-up mirror, yesterday... can you spell "mindless"?).
So, if anything "complex" dies, I typically just recycle it and
replace it (I collect "spares" of lots of things so this often
just means taking another off the shelf). To invest any serious
amount of time, it either has to be a really interesting problem
*or* something of considerable value (including "irreplaceable")
One problem with specialization is that it tends to create some rather
bizarre implementations. I once reverse engineered a microprocessor
design that could have been replaced by a quad op amp.

I had a colleague design a state machine for an LCD controller
using a 64KB EPROM (back when a 64K EPROM was *big*!). When I
dumped the EPROM, I discovered it implemented a simple logic
function of *3* variables (despite all the "inputs" that
were wired to it's address lines). I.e., it could have been
replaced by a quad _______ or, perhaps, a dual AOI.

Hint: I never build or design anything that I can't sell or turn into
a sellable product. When I do build something for myself, I usually
build 3 to 5 extras, to sell to friends and recover my expenses.
Expertise in PCB layout is a must.

I tend to take the *opposite* approach. I like building "one of
a kind" pieces. Especially as gifts. I.e., the value of the
gift is the fact that it is unique. And, sufficiently expensive
to undertake "duplication" that it would need to have a significant
number of "buyers" to make it worthwhile (i.e., it is not
economically feasible for a "competitor" to make something like
this, thereby rendering the uniqueness of the gift meaningless).

Difference Engine would be cool as it would require lots of
*mechanical* skill/assembly/fabrication -- not something you
could just run off a set of Gerbers!

Anything that I design lately that would appeal to others
I just release as "open source" (hardware and software) so
anyone who wants to invest the time/energy can copy at will.
Note that it's still possible to have fun with electronics:
"How to blow up a microwave"
<
>

I've thought about setting up a tesla coil proximate to
the hummingbird feeder to zap the *woodpeckers* when they
try to use it. But, it would be hard to control where
the discharge went... :<

(I wonder what burnt woodpecker smells like?)
 
F

Franc Zabkar

I'm looking for an online electronics forum (web-based) where I can post
some questions.

Don't get me wrong: I love, and usually prefer, Usenet. But I'm trying
to educate myself here, am working on a project, and a web forum that
allows one to post pictures would be better for my purposes.

Here in Australia most ISPs offer free web space to their users. I use
my web space to post pictures and other binary data. Is that an option
for you?

- Franc Zabkar
 
D

David Nebenzahl

Here in Australia most ISPs offer free web space to their users. I use
my web space to post pictures and other binary data. Is that an option
for you?

It's an option I'm already using. Well, not through my ISP, but using
one of the dozens of free photo hosting sites out there. In fact, the
forum I'm using (see below) doesn't let me post pictures directly, so I
have to first post them to a hosting site, then give a link to the
picture in the forum posting. A little cumbersome, but not too bad.

The thing I like about the web forums (I'm using Electro-Tech now, as
suggested above) is that you can post pictures *in your message*. What a
concept! So rather than dicking around with "binary" newsgroups (which I
don't use anymore since I stopped downloading pron), I can post
schematics, etc., right in the message.

As I said, I still prefer Usenet for most online communication. But
these newfangled Web thingies sure have their good points.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)
 
Top