question about burglar alarm dispute (San Francisco Bay Area)

[[email protected]]

Hi dear all:

We recently got involved with a dispute with a burglar alarm company
(in San Francisco Bay Area), and I hope this is the right place to
post this question.

On our AT&T phone bill last month we noticed that we have a long list
of "automated" long distance phone calls dialing to a area code (408)
phone number. These phone calls happened on daily basis and always
start from 1:43pm and would continue to dial until 2:39pm (for about
one hour, and call every one minute). At first we didn't think of it's
a problem from our burglar alarm company, so we called AT&T and they
put these calls on dispute for us. The next month, we noticed the same
thing again, so we called AT&T again and they told us that it seems
the phone number is a fax/computer type of phone number, they also
asked whether we have some kind of alarm system, so we started to talk
to our alarm company. The alarm company did some investigation, then
got back to us saying that these phone calls were made by the alarm
system for automated testing, as all these calls were never actually
went through, so the modem kept on trying to make those automated
testing calls. However, they did mention that they have another 4-5
customers who also had this problem before and the problem seems to be
related to really old modem (on the residence side, not the modems on
their company side), so they suggested that we should upgrade the
modem in our house (the current one was provided and installed by
them), and they also switched the 408 long distance number to a 1-800
number. They continue to say that we should dispute these phone calls
with AT&T and they are NOT willing to pay for these phone bills
(currently there are about $390 due to

Some questions:

1. From the technical side, who should be really responsible for these
phone calls? I know that we shouldn't, but we also don't know from the
technical side whether AT&T or the alarm company should be responsible
for this $390. Could someone please give us some "technical details"
about how this type of automated dialing system works (for burglar
alarm systems)? If, according to the alarm company, that these
automated dialing (from our home modem) never went through, why would
AT&T has a record on their computer and still charge us?

2. Is there any regulate agency for burglar alarm companies? If this
is the alarm company's fault and they should be responsible for the
$390 bill, other than the BBB (better business bureau), is there any
other places that we could file a complain against this alarm company?

 

[I brive a dus]

Hi dear all:

We recently got involved with a dispute with a burglar alarm company
(in San Francisco Bay Area), and I hope this is the right place to
post this question.

On our AT&T phone bill last month we noticed that we have a long list
of "automated" long distance phone calls dialing to a area code (408)
phone number. These phone calls happened on daily basis and always
start from 1:43pm and would continue to dial until 2:39pm (for about
one hour, and call every one minute). At first we didn't think of it's
a problem from our burglar alarm company, so we called AT&T and they
put these calls on dispute for us. The next month, we noticed the same
thing again, so we called AT&T again and they told us that it seems
the phone number is a fax/computer type of phone number, they also
asked whether we have some kind of alarm system, so we started to talk
to our alarm company. The alarm company did some investigation, then
got back to us saying that these phone calls were made by the alarm
system for automated testing, as all these calls were never actually
went through, so the modem kept on trying to make those automated
testing calls. However, they did mention that they have another 4-5
customers who also had this problem before and the problem seems to be
related to really old modem (on the residence side, not the modems on
their company side), so they suggested that we should upgrade the
modem in our house (the current one was provided and installed by
them), and they also switched the 408 long distance number to a 1-800
number. They continue to say that we should dispute these phone calls
with AT&T and they are NOT willing to pay for these phone bills
(currently there are about $390 due to

Some questions:

1. From the technical side, who should be really responsible for these
phone calls? I know that we shouldn't, but we also don't know from the
technical side whether AT&T or the alarm company should be responsible
for this $390. Could someone please give us some "technical details"
about how this type of automated dialing system works (for burglar
alarm systems)? If, according to the alarm company, that these
automated dialing (from our home modem) never went through, why would
AT&T has a record on their computer and still charge us?

2. Is there any regulate agency for burglar alarm companies? If this
is the alarm company's fault and they should be responsible for the
$390 bill, other than the BBB (better business bureau), is there any
other places that we could file a complain against this alarm company?<

You must be the only person in America without unlimited long
distance. I'm going out on a limb here but are you the same person
they keep the payphones active for too?

 

[Matt Ion]

Hi dear all:

We recently got involved with a dispute with a burglar alarm company
(in San Francisco Bay Area), and I hope this is the right place to
post this question.

On our AT&T phone bill last month we noticed that we have a long list
of "automated" long distance phone calls dialing to a area code (408)
phone number. These phone calls happened on daily basis and always
start from 1:43pm and would continue to dial until 2:39pm (for about
one hour, and call every one minute). At first we didn't think of it's
a problem from our burglar alarm company, so we called AT&T and they
put these calls on dispute for us. The next month, we noticed the same
thing again, so we called AT&T again and they told us that it seems
the phone number is a fax/computer type of phone number, they also
asked whether we have some kind of alarm system, so we started to talk
to our alarm company. The alarm company did some investigation, then
got back to us saying that these phone calls were made by the alarm
system for automated testing, as all these calls were never actually
went through, so the modem kept on trying to make those automated
testing calls. However, they did mention that they have another 4-5
customers who also had this problem before and the problem seems to be
related to really old modem (on the residence side, not the modems on
their company side), so they suggested that we should upgrade the
modem in our house (the current one was provided and installed by
them), and they also switched the 408 long distance number to a 1-800
number. They continue to say that we should dispute these phone calls
with AT&T and they are NOT willing to pay for these phone bills
(currently there are about $390 due to

Some questions:

1. From the technical side, who should be really responsible for these
phone calls? I know that we shouldn't, but we also don't know from the
technical side whether AT&T or the alarm company should be responsible
for this $390. Could someone please give us some "technical details"
about how this type of automated dialing system works (for burglar
alarm systems)? If, according to the alarm company, that these
automated dialing (from our home modem) never went through, why would
AT&T has a record on their computer and still charge us?

2. Is there any regulate agency for burglar alarm companies? If this
is the alarm company's fault and they should be responsible for the
$390 bill, other than the BBB (better business bureau), is there any
other places that we could file a complain against this alarm company?

I'm neither an alarm "expert" nor do I know anything about alarm
business requirements in your area, but one thing I can say with a fair
certainty is that if the call showed up on your bill, it did connect to
SOMETHING or SOMEONE, be it another modem, a fax, or someone's voice
line. If that wasn't your alarm company, there's probably someone out
there who's pretty f'n annoyed at having their phone ring every minute
for an hour and find nobody there when they answer. Have you tried
making a regular call yourself to that number to at least explain and/or
apologize (not that it's your place to do so, but it would be a "nice"
thing to do)?

Now that said... at a rough guess I'd say the alarm company may have
changed their contact number and missed switching over a few panels,
since others seem to have had the same problem. I don't see what the
age of the modem would have to do with anything; the only possible issue
I could see is if the system is dialing a 7-digit number when the
monitoring station has changed area codes, but from the sound of it, it
IS dialing a different area code than you're in, and still, the number
should be controlled by the panel, not the modem.

If it IS dialing the proper number, it's possible there's something
wrong with the modem and it's just not able to connect. Whether that's
your responsibility or the alarm company's would depend on the service
contract. Frankly though, the fact that they've now switched it to use
a 1-800 number is, to my mind, a point in your favor, because that would
be something they should have done long before in expectation of exactly
this sort of problem.

Anyway, just my fairly generic two cents... I'm sure someone more
familiar with your local laws and regulations will have something more
useful for you.

 

[Doug]

--

Hi dear all:

We recently got involved with a dispute with a burglar alarm company
(in San Francisco Bay Area), and I hope this is the right place to
post this question.

On our AT&T phone bill last month we noticed that we have a long list
of "automated" long distance phone calls dialing to a area code (408)
phone number. These phone calls happened on daily basis and always
start from 1:43pm and would continue to dial until 2:39pm (for about
one hour, and call every one minute). At first we didn't think of it's
a problem from our burglar alarm company, so we called AT&T and they
put these calls on dispute for us. The next month, we noticed the same
thing again, so we called AT&T again and they told us that it seems
the phone number is a fax/computer type of phone number, they also
asked whether we have some kind of alarm system, so we started to talk
to our alarm company. The alarm company did some investigation, then
got back to us saying that these phone calls were made by the alarm
system for automated testing, as all these calls were never actually
went through, so the modem kept on trying to make those automated
testing calls. However, they did mention that they have another 4-5
customers who also had this problem before and the problem seems to be
related to really old modem (on the residence side, not the modems on
their company side), so they suggested that we should upgrade the
modem in our house (the current one was provided and installed by
them), and they also switched the 408 long distance number to a 1-800
number. They continue to say that we should dispute these phone calls
with AT&T and they are NOT willing to pay for these phone bills
(currently there are about $390 due to

Some questions:

1. From the technical side, who should be really responsible for these
phone calls? I know that we shouldn't, but we also don't know from the
technical side whether AT&T or the alarm company should be responsible
for this $390. Could someone please give us some "technical details"
about how this type of automated dialing system works (for burglar
alarm systems)? If, according to the alarm company, that these
automated dialing (from our home modem) never went through, why would
AT&T has a record on their computer and still charge us?

2. Is there any regulate agency for burglar alarm companies? If this
is the alarm company's fault and they should be responsible for the
$390 bill, other than the BBB (better business bureau), is there any
other places that we could file a complain against this alarm company?

The alarm is calling the central station receiver, which answers the call
hence the charges from AT&T but the message (timer test) is either not
transmitted correctly or not received correctly so the alarm hangs up and
redials the receiver in an attempt to transmit its message. In most cases
the alarm will only try about 8 times before giving up.

Why isn't the message being received correctly ?,who knows, it could be the
alarm company changed the receiver format, it could be that the alarm system
is faulty, devices could have been added at your home that would affect the
transmission of alarm signals or any number of other reasons.

If part of the monitoring contract calls for a daily timer test and the
signal isn't received then the alarm company should notify you that the
signal wasn't received. It may be however that the signal was eventually
accepted.

Its unlikely to be AT&Ts responsibility, which leaves you or the alarm
company.
Prior to the multiple calls was there a single daily call to this number?
Have you made any changes made to your phone equipment or added DSL to this
line?
Who owns the alarm system?


Doug

 

[Bob La Londe]

Now that said... at a rough guess I'd say the alarm company may have
changed their contact number and missed switching over a few panels,
since others seem to have had the same problem. I don't see what the
age of the modem would have to do with anything; the only possible issue
I could see is if the system is dialing a 7-digit number when the
monitoring station has changed area codes, but from the sound of it, it
IS dialing a different area code than you're in, and still, the number
should be controlled by the panel, not the modem.

Actually where I have run across this type of problem is when the customer
has added DSL service to their home or business phone line without bothering
to notify the alarm company. What usually happens is either the CS receiver
can't hear the signals over the DSL carrier OR more often the panel can't
hear the kissof signal from the CS so it sends the signal again.

Since all of my panels dial my toll free lines I just eat the toll cost when
it happens, and charge the customer for a DSL filter specific to alarm
panels.

NOW! Technically it is the customer's fault, or the DSL providers fault in
this case. I recently did a DSL self install in my house, and the
instruction clearly said that if you have an alarm panel notify your alarm
company. I have also had clients call me and tell me their self install
instructions for their new DSL modem said the same thing. If these
instruction are well enough known to be documented for self installers there
is absolutely no excuse for a proffessional DSL installer to make this
mistake either.

In this case we can't say who is at fault until we actually discover the
problem for this run-a-way repeat signal attempt, but addition of DSL to the
line can cause almost exactly these symptoms.

Of course we have over looked an underlying problem which could be makling
things worse. AT&T. If they have the customer on a carrier where they are
compressing to many phone lines over the available bandwidth they could be
distorting the signal enroute. Usually the kissof signal is the one that
suffers. Most of the time you can hear a little echo or tin can sound to
the lines on a voice call when this is the case, but not always. The fact
that the customer's panel is dialing the local ANI terminated line rather
than the alarm companies toll free line says that whatever the customer's
toll provider does is what the alarm panel has to deal with. Another reason
to own your own lines, and pick your own carrier that caters to alarm
companies, and have your own toll free lines. Then rarely is the alarm
panel subject to the substandard service of the customer's toll provider.
Yes it costs you a few ¢ per signal, but the level of service is better.
Why this is the case for this customer is unknown. Maybe they have been on
the same service for 50 years and have never had anything upgraded ever, and
now its coming back to bite them.

 

[John R. Sowden]

Hi dear all:

We recently got involved with a dispute with a burglar alarm company
(in San Francisco Bay Area), and I hope this is the right place to
post this question.

On our AT&T phone bill last month we noticed that we have a long list
of "automated" long distance phone calls dialing to a area code (408)
phone number. These phone calls happened on daily basis and always
start from 1:43pm and would continue to dial until 2:39pm (for about
one hour, and call every one minute). At first we didn't think of it's
a problem from our burglar alarm company, so we called AT&T and they
put these calls on dispute for us. The next month, we noticed the same
thing again, so we called AT&T again and they told us that it seems
the phone number is a fax/computer type of phone number, they also
asked whether we have some kind of alarm system, so we started to talk
to our alarm company. The alarm company did some investigation, then
got back to us saying that these phone calls were made by the alarm
system for automated testing, as all these calls were never actually
went through, so the modem kept on trying to make those automated
testing calls. However, they did mention that they have another 4-5
customers who also had this problem before and the problem seems to be
related to really old modem (on the residence side, not the modems on
their company side), so they suggested that we should upgrade the
modem in our house (the current one was provided and installed by
them), and they also switched the 408 long distance number to a 1-800
number. They continue to say that we should dispute these phone calls
with AT&T and they are NOT willing to pay for these phone bills
(currently there are about $390 due to

Some questions:

1. From the technical side, who should be really responsible for these
phone calls? I know that we shouldn't, but we also don't know from the
technical side whether AT&T or the alarm company should be responsible
for this $390. Could someone please give us some "technical details"
about how this type of automated dialing system works (for burglar
alarm systems)? If, according to the alarm company, that these
automated dialing (from our home modem) never went through, why would
AT&T has a record on their computer and still charge us?

2. Is there any regulate agency for burglar alarm companies? If this
is the alarm company's fault and they should be responsible for the
$390 bill, other than the BBB (better business bureau), is there any
other places that we could file a complain against this alarm company?

1) The alarm system seems to be programmed to send a test signal daily.
This should involve one call. If the test signal is not being received
properly by the alarm company, then a real alarm will probably also not
be received properly.

2) As you state, if the call is on your bill, it was answered by the
alarm company's receiving equipment. What they probably meant by 'it
didn't go through' was that the alarm company's computer did not process
the test properly. Since a proper test was not processed by the alarm
company's computer, it would show up, DAILY, as an "exception report",
requiring action on their part. Since this series of events has
generated $390. in fees, it must have been going on for a while. If
this were my account, and I screwed up by not following up on a "test
signal not received" for (several weeks?), I would bite the bullet and
send you a letter of apology, ask for copies of the bills, and send you
a check, or account credit (I prefer a check as an audit trail). I had
something similar happen in the early eighties, with a runaway dialer.
We had telco chase it down, as we did not know where it was coming from
(no data was being sent). We responded that night, and reimbursed the
customer.

Regarding who is responsible to repair (not upgrade) your system, you
need to refer to your agreement. I have dialers that were installed in
the late seventies that are still in service working. You should not
need to upgrade your control (most alarm systems create their "modems"
in software) because the alarm company changed its receiver or computer.

John Sowden
American Sentry Systems, Inc.

 

[Matt Ion]

Actually where I have run across this type of problem is when the customer
has added DSL service to their home or business phone line without bothering
to notify the alarm company. What usually happens is either the CS receiver
can't hear the signals over the DSL carrier OR more often the panel can't
hear the kissof signal from the CS so it sends the signal again.

Hmm, good point, hadn't thought of that... but as I say, I'm not an
alarm expert... thus my disclaimers

NOW! Technically it is the customer's fault, or the DSL providers fault in
this case. I recently did a DSL self install in my house, and the
instruction clearly said that if you have an alarm panel notify your alarm
company. I have also had clients call me and tell me their self install
instructions for their new DSL modem said the same thing. If these
instruction are well enough known to be documented for self installers there
is absolutely no excuse for a proffessional DSL installer to make this
mistake either.

In this case we can't say who is at fault until we actually discover the
problem for this run-a-way repeat signal attempt, but addition of DSL to the
line can cause almost exactly these symptoms.

Yeah, that's the problem with diagnosing something like this online -
ultimately, someone with a clue really should take a look at the system
IN PERSON and determine the actual cause of the problem, before any
"blame" can be assigned.

In the end, it may be equitable for all three parties to simple split
the cost: the alarm company because, as you say, they should recognize
this type of problem right off rather than trying to pass it off on the
customer and/or telco (and because as has been noted elsewhere, because
their system should have registered a problem from missing check-ins
long ago); the telco, because their installer should know enough to
check for these sorts of things when making the hookup in the first
place; and depending on materials provided by the alarmco AND telco, the
customer for not reading the FINE manual (assuming there is a note
somewhere in there to be aware of this sort of issue).

And of course, this all assume that the problem IS related a DSL
installation...

Of course we have over looked an underlying problem which could be makling
things worse. AT&T. If they have the customer on a carrier where they are
compressing to many phone lines over the available bandwidth they could be
distorting the signal enroute. Usually the kissof signal is the one that
suffers. Most of the time you can hear a little echo or tin can sound to
the lines on a voice call when this is the case, but not always.

Interesingly, this is a similar idea to one that affected a friend's
cable modem some years ago: when she originally had her cable internet
installed, her provider was using those monstrous LANcity cable modems
(the ones that look like car-audio amplifiers). When they "upgraded"
her to a new Motorola modem, her internet suddenly stopped working.
Numerous visits were made by technicians over the next six months, some
with new modems (of the same type), some with signal boosters, one even
running a new dedicated line from the terminal block to her desk. Their
diagnostics all showed a good signal strength, the help-desk people
could always communicate with the modems, but she wasn't getting an
internet connection.

Finally, after an extended reaming-out by my friend, the company sent
out one of their most senior techs, with instructions to stay on site
until he had it fixed. It didn't take him long to determine that the
cause was a missing earth-ground connection on the outside terminal
block, which was leading to a 60Hz hum being induced on the all the
cable drops in the house. It didn't affect the TVs or cable boxes, and
the old modem had had more robust filtering, so it wasn't affected
either, but the new modems couldn't "see through the noise".

Driving a new grounding stake and connecting the block to it cleared
things up, but apparently that sort of hands-on troubleshooting was
beyond the thinking of all the younger, fresh-out-of-tech-college
technicians they'd sent out previously.

 

[Roger W]

What are payphones?

Superman's dressing room.

 

[Bob Worthy]

....

What are payphones?

Superman's dressing room.

That was a phone booth.

 

[Frank Olson]

That was a phone booth.

Man... You guys are weird.

 

[Bob La Londe]

Driving a new grounding stake and connecting the block to it cleared
things up, but apparently that sort of hands-on troubleshooting was beyond
the thinking of all the younger, fresh-out-of-tech-college technicians
they'd sent out previously.

Reminds me of when I had a cable modem installed in my old office. The
installer put a nice pretty ground block on the outside of the building,
then punched a hole in my wall. I went out and said, "There is a reason for
putting a ground block in you know."

He replied, "Yeah it protects the equipment inside."

"Yeah, it needs to be ground to work though."

Deer in headlights look.

LOL. I called the cable company and made them come back out to drive a
ground rod and ground the block.

 

[Bob La Londe]

Anybody notice the original poster hasn't come back with any answers to our
questions or comments?

 

[alarman]

Superman's dressing room.

I thought that was Underdog.

 

[Doug]

Anybody notice the original poster hasn't come back with any answers to
our questions or comments?

They may have had their DSL disconnected due to a dispute over payment of a
$390 phone bill

Doug

 

[Bob La Londe]

What are payphones?

They're like cell phones, but you gotta buy cards in order to use them.

 

[Nym]

Reminds me of when I had a cable modem installed in my old office. The
installer put a nice pretty ground block on the outside of the building,
then punched a hole in my wall. I went out and said, "There is a reason for
putting a ground block in you know."

He replied, "Yeah it protects the equipment inside."

"Yeah, it needs to be ground to work though."

Deer in headlights look.

LOL. I called the cable company and made them come back out to drive a
ground rod and ground the block.

what was wrong with the ground rod that was already there?

 

[Bob La Londe]

what was wrong with the ground rod that was already there?

You mean the one on the other side of the building where the electrical
service was, or the one that wasn't there anywhere near where the cable guy
brought in his cable?

 

[G. Morgan]

I thought that was Underdog.

I yoosta have Underoo's and Garanimals.

 

[Bob La Londe]

He went up against AT&T, you can guess the rest

When it comes to AT&T you should vote with your wallet, and take your money
someplace else. The only way you win with those guys is don't play.

 

[alarman]

I yoosta have Underoo's and Garanimals.

Until just recently, no doubt.