Prewire zone - method?

[G. Morgan]

I didn't imply anything....it's factual information.

Lets re-visit this. First you said it didn't happen. Then when I
pointed out the Snopes link you said it did, AND claimed (implied)
*YOU* were the one who solved the big mystery. Sounds real bassy
there Jr. Better show some proof if you expect anyone to believe that
whopper.

While your at it lets see this parking lot and tricked out work van of
yours.

 

[G. Morgan]

Someone named [email protected] (AlarmReview) Proclaimed on 25 May
2004 00:31:55 GMT,

Actually, that's a
good thing, such stupidity needs to have that tree branch die off.

I wish I was like you, and knew it all. __|__

 

[Jackcsg]

Lets re-visit this. First you said it didn't happen. Then when I
pointed out the Snopes link you said it did, AND claimed (implied)
*YOU* were the one who solved the big mystery. Sounds real bassy
there Jr. Better show some proof if you expect anyone to believe that
whopper.

While your at it lets see this parking lot and tricked out work van of
yours.

Hey, you should come up to Missouri and visit the Night Club/Strip Club I
did. Our come over to my Central Station in St. Louis and watch the nights
activities, but I'm probably lying about that too.
Apparently you can't read the information from that web site link? I asked
you who provided the video/pictures of the birds stealing quarters? You
don't know do you?

 

[Jackcsg]

You're right Bass Junior, I have no common sense. I should put all my
controls by the breaker box. You wanker.

What's the matter cracker, is that all you have is personal attacks? I guess
it is a little threatening when you finally find out there are people in
this industry that have more experience than a little resi guy like you.

Speaking ebonics are we, Junior?

Well I'm sure once Stevens pulls his finger from your ass, and the thought
of that leaves my mind, it will be back to business as usual.

 

[Jackcsg]

His impotence is of no concern. :^)

I should have hyphenated that - impo-tant. It is meant to be taken either
way. But I do see your point, he is over all, no concern. I just like firing
him up, and hearing his childish rants.

Jack

 

[Jackcsg]

He doesn't have to argue, we all know how "impotent" he is. Actually, that's a
good thing, such stupidity needs to have that tree branch die off.

Rob-

I used to think the same way, then I bought a chain saw, and dropped a few
trees. That's got to help the cause a little....

Jack

 

[Jackcsg]

Someone named [email protected] (AlarmReview) Proclaimed on 25 May
2004 00:31:55 GMT,



I wish I was like you, and knew it all. __|__

Don't worry little cracker, someday you'll figure out it's best to know
everything about very little, than very little about everything. I can see
where a guy like you can get confused.

 

[rocko]

He doesn't have to argue, we all know how "impotent" he is. Actually, that's a
good thing, such stupidity needs to have that tree branch die off.

paraphrasing Einstein,
only 2 things are infinite, the universe and peoples stupidity, and I'm not
sure about the first.

 

[G. Morgan]

Hey, you should come up to Missouri and visit the Night Club/Strip Club I
did.
Cool.

Our come over to my Central Station in St. Louis and watch the nights
activities,

Okay. I could watch it on your new camera, if you gave me the link.

but I'm probably lying about that too.

I'm not accusing you of being a plumber, Jack. I'm fairly certain you
are in the alarm trade.

Apparently you can't read the information from that web site link?

Yes I can, Jack.

I asked you who provided the video/pictures of the birds stealing quarters? You
don't know do you?

Well let's see here, Jack. This is all the information I can garner
from the websites:

It seems Bill Dougherty of Fredericksburg, Virginia set up the cameras
(he's the carwash owner) himself. That would make him the original
provider of the pictures.

The utahbirds.org site, the site that made this story so popular,
gives photo credits to Glenn Barlow (who received it from an unknown
source).

Jack, are you now saying you're the "unknown source"? Look man, if
you were hired to set up the damn cameras you can tell us. This is
not a top-secret national security issue. If you want to, send me the
email you sent bAss, if it contains anything other than what I have
already read. Don't worry, I have clearance.

-Graham

PS - Next time I'm in St. Louis, I'll take you up on that offer to see
the alarm at the tittie bar.

 

[G. Morgan]

Someone named "Jackcsg" <[email protected]> Proclaimed on Tue,
25 May 2004 01:55:52 GMT,

What's the matter cracker, is that all you have is personal attacks? I guess
it is a little threatening when you finally find out there are people in
this industry that have more experience than a little resi guy like you.

No, Jackson. I'm just having fun at your expense. By the way, I
don't do residential. Haven't crawled in an attic in a long time.

Well I'm sure once Stevens pulls his finger from your ass, and the thought
of that leaves my mind, it will be back to business as usual.

Is that all you have is personal attacks?

 

[Jackcsg]

Okay. I could watch it on your new camera, if you gave me the link.

You'll be waiting a long time. It's not a network camera, it's on a DVR,
with the rest of the buildings cameras. I have a network camera in my
Central Station for demo purposes for people to see how simple it is to
utilize them for video verification.

I'm not accusing you of being a plumber, Jack. I'm fairly certain you
are in the alarm trade.



Yes I can, Jack.


Well let's see here, Jack. This is all the information I can garner
from the websites:

It seems Bill Dougherty of Fredericksburg, Virginia set up the cameras
(he's the carwash owner) himself. That would make him the original
provider of the pictures.

The utahbirds.org site, the site that made this story so popular,
gives photo credits to Glenn Barlow (who received it from an unknown
source).

Jack, are you now saying you're the "unknown source"? Look man, if
you were hired to set up the damn cameras you can tell us. This is
not a top-secret national security issue. If you want to, send me the
email you sent bAss, if it contains anything other than what I have
already read. Don't worry, I have clearance.

I know exactly where the pictures came from, I use them in some sales
literature I give to potential customers. They were taken in 2001, about
three years ago. I'll leave it there.

-Graham

PS - Next time I'm in St. Louis, I'll take you up on that offer to see
the alarm at the tittie bar.

I have no problems with that. I have 6 Panasonic KX-HCM280 Network Cameras,
and a Kalatel DVRMe-10, that covers the site.

Jack

 

[Jackcsg]

Someone named "Jackcsg" <[email protected]> Proclaimed on Tue,
25 May 2004 01:55:52 GMT,



No, Jackson. I'm just having fun at your expense. By the way, I
don't do residential. Haven't crawled in an attic in a long time.



Is that all you have is personal attacks?

No, I'm done now. I have no doubt that your an intelligent person Graham. I
treat people with the same respect I get.

 

[Jackcsg]

As a matter of fact, he's right.

In a ideal situation it is "desirable" to mount the panel in a location that is
close to power, ground and is central to the premise. But........ which of
these takes priority if it's not a prewire. Power is available at any
electrical outlet, however, how short should the ground wire be and how short
*can* it be if the panel is mounted in a closet on the second floor at the far
end of the house.

In this instance it would seem to me that it's likely that both power and
ground would be avaiable by the garage electrical panel causing long zone wire
runs to the far end of the house. However, if the panel were to be mounted at
the far end of the house on the second floor, where does he obtain ground
(easily)?

Or, the panel mounted in a first floor closet ......... "splitting" the
difference?

Decisions........... decisions.
Jim

(Email accepted only upon request.)

Common sense plays the role. Being able to easily service the system,
although usually an after thought, plays into the role as well. I don't the
majority of dealers places controls in areas which are harder to install and
service.
I knew a dealer in Baltimore who liked to hide control panels. He'd put them
in ceilings, beam rafters, and even under store counters. When he couldn't
hide the control, he stapled a tarp over the control panel so you couldn't
see the control panel. Resisters, forget that end of line thing, and nope
not even in the panel either. He'd put them in the middle of loops, and ofte
n used a four conductor wire going to a motion, to tap off, three wire the
motion, and use the forth wire down to a panic/hold-up device. He was a nice
guy to follow around....

Jack

 

[Gus]

Please explane this ground problem.

Earth ground should be the same as the house wiring ground....the
house should have a ground rod somewhere.
I understand there can possibility be a difference in potential
between the two if a good connection is not made.

Using the ground/common wire in the romax should give an adequate
ground....right?

My long house with all the bedroom closets at the opposite end from
the garage and eletrical service should I plan to ground the system to
copper pipes in the master bathroom?

Gus

 

[Jackcsg]

Hmm. That sounds like someone we know. Are you sure he didn't run a tiny
company called Sea View? :^)

I don't know about that, but his company was, or is, called the
"AlarmDoctor". I think he's where the term "slam-a-bama-ding-dong" came
from. Yellow stickers with Orange lettering. It looks great on a Blue Van.
Although, I have to admit, better than the 87 Caravan tan "woody" he used to
drive. He thought Acron was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I saw him
at ADI one morning wearing cut off raggedy blue jeans, his wonderful yellow
T-shirt with Orange lettering, blue socks, monster hiking boots, and a burnt
up 3/4" diameter cigar hanging out of his mouth. Imagine that walking
through your front door to sell you an alarm.

Jack

 

[G. Morgan]

I know exactly where the pictures came from, I use them in some sales
literature I give to potential customers. They were taken in 2001, about
three years ago. I'll leave it there.

Why are you so secretive about it? Come on Jack, if you put the
cameras tell me. On this newsgroup, everyone is suspect. Anyhow,
have a nice evening.

-Graham

 

[G. Morgan]

Not really. That's generally considered a bad idea as it does not provide a
low enough resistance path to protect sensirtive circuits.

Perhaps you would like to explain how a commercial fire alarm is
grounded? (sensitive components too)

 

[G. Morgan]

No, I'm done now. I have no doubt that your an intelligent person Graham.

Sorry I can't say the same. (just joking!)

I treat people with the same respect I get.

Look man, I was having fun with you. I do the same to everyone in the
group every now and then. I was thinking about this today at work
actually. Some people may not appreciate my sarcastic sense of humor,
and that is fine. I tend to be crude and terse sometimes because I am
often bored. It in no way reflects my actual opinion of you, as I
really have none.


I'll try to add more smileys in my remarks, okay asswipe?



Later,

Graham

ps - I'm not replying to the other thread about the bird shit. If you
want to clarify it, do so. If not, well than, the story is for the
birds.

 

[w_tom]

Let's step back a minute and look at what you want to do. First you
want to run a cable exterior. Therefore it must be rated to withstand
the elements (must be water resistant and must withstand UV light).
Therein describes what the cable must be on its exterior.

You want a cable that can withstand electromagnetic interference.
That would be twisted pair or shielded. Only in extreme enviroments do
you need more.

Distance - does the cable and driver/receivers meet those distance
and impedance requirements. At 250 feet, then yes for CAT5 on
standard 100 Mb ethernet.

Now for something unique to interbuilding communication. Scenario.
Lightning strikes an AC power line entering on far side of building
one. Lightning seeks earth ground. Therefore lightning travels
through building one to find earth ground via building two. Lightning
enters computer in building one or two to find earth ground -
destructively. IOW building one (and its AC electric) is a big fat
lightning rod trying to earth lightning via building two =
destructively via a computer or other transistorized device.

We are now ready to cast blame on the human who setup transistors to
be damaged. And yes, damage from lightning is always directly
traceable to human failure.

Robert Bass accurately describes a solution. No, wire is not a
perfect conductor. Wire distance means no connection to earth ground.
Distance to earth ground must be as short as possible. Transient (or
lightning) protectors are not protection. Protection is earth ground.
That means the distance to earth ground is critical. Every incoming
wire to any building must,first, make a less than 10 foot connection
to earth ground. Not just any earth ground. All wires must be
incoming and less than 10 foot to the same earth ground. Else
lightning might decide to find earth ground via the building (and
transistors) to that other earth ground.

But even better is how to define single point earth ground. A
minimal earth ground is the eight foot ground rod as now required by
post 1990 NEC requirements. But with transistors, then responsible
builders now make the single point earth ground a big point entirely
under the building. Welcome to 1930 technology - Ufer ground or halo
ground. If the building is a big single point ground using rebar
inside footings or a big halo ground loop outside the entire building,
then single point earth ground is beneath the entire building. Notice
that we still don't build as if the transistor exists - mostly due to
technical ignorance so widespread in America.

What Robert Bass posted would be painfully obvious to the
technically informed. Single point earth ground and, even better, a
building wide single point ground underneath the entire building.
Transient protection is not defined by any magic protector.
Protection is defined by the quality of that single point earth
ground. Protector is only as effective as the earth ground and
distance to that earth ground.

It is a concept that those trained only by advertisement, retail
store shelfs, and technical ignorance would not appreciate. A surge
protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which plug-in
protectors refuse to discuss to make the sale. Every incoming wire
must connect to that earth ground, either via a surge protector or by
direct and hardwire connection. That is how all buildings are
interconnected to never suffer damage. That is why your local telco,
connected to overhead wires everywhere in town, does not shutdown
phone service during T-storms. Switching transistors in a building
surrounded by the single point earth ground.

Protection is about the single point earth ground for every
building. Plug-in protector manufacturers *fear* you might learn.
Tranisent protection is defined by the quality of that single point
earth ground which scam artists will avoid discussing. Sorry about
being blunt, but I am a realist and engineer; not a salesman.
Transient protection is all about the earth ground.

 

[G. Morgan]

Someone named [email protected] (w_tom) Proclaimed on 25 May 2004
18:21:10 -0700,

Let's step back a minute and look at what you want to do.

<snip> engineer babble

Gus, what you want is the system to work. Let me clue you in on
something the manufacturers won't tell you, and people like Bass don't
know (because all they do is read manuals, and have no practical
experience).


DON'T GROUND THE PANEL.


It's that simple.