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Precision low frequency generation

  • Thread starter Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
  • Start date
J

Jan Panteltje

Initially I need to test with sinewaves, but ultimately I want to use
the computer to generate arbitrary LF waveforms.
Modulating a HF signal with the LF waveform in the computer would seem
the best way to go initially. Then it becomes an AM 'radio' problem.
Cat's whisker?

We have precision rectifiers these days:



in -- 100nF ---------- +
| opamp
10 kOhm out ---------
| |
/// --- - ---
| 1/4 LM324 \ / 1N4148
| ---
| |
|---------------------------------- LF
| |
10 kOhm C
| R1 | C1
/// ///

AM peak detector.
R1 C1 timeconstant should be small enough so your highest frequency still passes.
 
J

John Larkin

John,
why did you sell him an ultimate arb generator?

VLV

The cheapest one we offer, the tiny new 4-channel serial thing, will
be about $2K, probably not in his budget. It goes from 0.003 Hz to 2
MHz.

Actually, one doesn't need a linear multiplier. One of those simple
+1/-1 gain switcher circuits would work fine, a 4066 and an opamp. One
sound card output would be the square wave to drive the 4066. Simple.

You could even do it with a tiny circuit that's powered from the sound
card signals.

John
 
J

John Larkin

Thanks.
Initially I need to test with sinewaves, but ultimately I want to use
the computer to generate arbitrary LF waveforms.
Modulating a HF signal with the LF waveform in the computer would seem
the best way to go initially. Then it becomes an AM 'radio' problem.
Cat's whisker?

Dirk

You could generate an arbitrary waveform at, say, 5 KHz, and sample it
at, say, 5001 Hz. The sampling would downconvert the 5K signal to 1 Hz
and preserve the waveform. The circuit needed is a simple
sample-and-hold. It could be done with a resistive mixer and a diode
peak detector, too, 4 passives, but it wouldn't be as elegant.

I bet you could booger a sound card to give a dc-coupled output. It
does have a dac inside somewhere. Or buy a USB dac.

John
 
K

Keith

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax said:
I'm thinking of creating a precision low frequecy generator (<20HZ) by
taking a computer generated stereo sinewave output with (say) one
channel o/p 5000Hz and the other (say) 5002.5Hz, feeding into a
summing input of an op amp and then putting the signal through a low
pass filter to recover a 2.5Hz sine wave. Do you think this will work,
or have I missed something?

Dirk

Sample & Hold one signal as triggered by the other. The trigger
signal will probably need to be converted to a pulsetrain to
operate the S/H - zero crossing followed by monostable perhaps?
 
R

Robert Baer

Dirk said:
I'm thinking of creating a precision low frequecy generator (<20HZ) by
taking a computer generated stereo sinewave output with (say) one
channel o/p 5000Hz and the other (say) 5002.5Hz, feeding into a
summing input of an op amp and then putting the signal through a low
pass filter to recover a 2.5Hz sine wave. Do you think this will work,
or have I missed something?

Dirk
To get the sum, difference as well as the original frequencies, you
need a *nonlinear* device.
Next, use a filter to remove the original frequencies and the sum
frequency.
 
R

Robert Baer

A whole lot simpler to produce the 2.5Hz signal directly from your
computer.
Why, pray tell, use a thousand dollar power sucking hog to do this?
There are plenty of simple, small, low power discreet circuite as
aell as ICs that can be used for this project.
 
R

Robert Baer

Dirk said:
I need to use any computer, without specialised hardware.
Soundcards typically will not go down below 10Hz.
I suppose I could simplify it by generating a high frequency sine wave
100% amplitude modulated with the low frequency component in something
like Audacity.

Dirk
I repeat, *WHY* waste 100 watts to generate something that can be
generated using MILLIwatts and a small battery?
 
M

Martin Griffith

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:21:52 +1100, in sci.electronics.design "Phil

 
D

Don Bowey

Why, pray tell, use a thousand dollar power sucking hog to do this?
There are plenty of simple, small, low power discreet circuite as
aell as ICs that can be used for this project.

I suspect that is none of our business.
 
D

Don Bowey

I repeat, *WHY* waste 100 watts to generate something that can be
generated using MILLIwatts and a small battery?

Why do you believe you need to know that to reply to a simple question?
 
R

Robert Baer

Don said:
Why do you believe you need to know that to reply to a simple question?
Gee, look back; i did give an answer.....
Oh, what about cutting back on heat pollution (as well as other
polution) by using low power devices when possible??????
 
I'm thinking of creating a precision low frequecy generator (<20HZ) by
taking a computer generated stereo sinewave output with (say) one
channel o/p 5000Hz and the other (say) 5002.5Hz, feeding into a
summing input of an op amp and then putting the signal through a low
pass filter to recover a 2.5Hz sine wave. Do you think this will work,
or have I missed something?

Dirk

You need to define precision.

How about this. You can make a simple sine wave generator feeding a
square wave to a switched capacitor filter. Now if the clock for the
switched capacitor filter was the output of the sound card, you would
get a much lower frequency sine wave than the clock. The square wave
generator is made by dividing down the switched capacitor filter
clock.

Let's do a simple example. The sound card is putting out 100Hz. Let
the clock to corner of the filter be 100. Now you have a filter at
1Hz. Divide the switched capacitor clock by 128 to make things simple.
This gives you a square wave at 0.78125Hz. This is in the passband of
the switched capacitor filter. The first harmonic you need to worry
about is the 3rd, or 2.34375Hz. Use an elliptic switched capacitor
filter with a transition ratio less that 2, and the 3rd harmonic and
the remaining harmonics will be filtered.

The frequency of the sine wave will be very precise. Fidelity is
another story. You would be doing well to get about 70db down.

There are trick you can do to reduce the harmonics fed to the switched
capacitor filter. One simple trick is to feed a signal that is 1 1 1
0 -1 -1 -1 0 , that is, reduce the size of the jump, which in turn
reduces the harmonics. You could also generate a signal with resistor
taps to reduce the jumps further.

If you have a bigger budget, use a digital sine wave generator scheme
(dac and rom), where again the clock is from the sound card.

I saw a DAC on the parallel port mentioned. This doesn't work well
unless you use DOS. The port control timing is not very good in modern
operating systems.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Phil said:
( I am a fucking MORON ** )

...... Phil


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
Y

YD

Late at night, by candle light, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
I'm thinking of creating a precision low frequecy generator (<20HZ) by
taking a computer generated stereo sinewave output with (say) one
channel o/p 5000Hz and the other (say) 5002.5Hz, feeding into a
summing input of an op amp and then putting the signal through a low
pass filter to recover a 2.5Hz sine wave. Do you think this will work,
or have I missed something?

Dirk

Generate a PWM square wave at a couple 100 Hz. Then all you'll need is
a LPF and whatever gain and DC block/restore required. Might try FM
too.

- YD.
 
D

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:






I repeat, *WHY* waste 100 watts to generate something that can be
generated using MILLIwatts and a small battery?

Because ultimately I also need the output to follow complex time
dependent frequency patterns eg 6Hz to 2.5Hz over a ten minute period,
followed by 2.5 to 8 over three minutes, followed by... etc

Dirk
 
D

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

To get the sum, difference as well as the original frequencies, you
need a *nonlinear* device.
Next, use a filter to remove the original frequencies and the sum
frequency.

So what would I get from linearly adding two different frequency sine
waves?
When I do it in Audacity (s/w) I get a signal modulated at the
difference frequency.

Dirk
 
P

Phil Allison

"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax"
So what would I get from linearly adding two different frequency sine
waves?
When I do it in Audacity (s/w) I get a signal modulated at the
difference frequency.


** Wot an utterly, monumental fuckwit.

This vile psychopathic pile of **SHIT** must be exterminated from
the face of the earth.

http://www.neopax.com/

http://www.neopax.com/dirk bruere.jpg

http://www.neopax.com/asatru/index.html


It may take any number of wooden stakes, driven through this vile zombie's
heart.

Show no mercy - it ain't human.



....... Phil
 
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