power with line wire enter the wall switch and out going and there is no neutral

[mjc]

Do as jphanhalt suggests , best to run a three wire (12-3w grnd, red,black,white ) from the Light outlet or a 12-2 from the basement. You will want to take in account the amperage needed for appliances. code requires the neutral be available at swiitch box since the new style dimmers will require it. Oh! Never use the bare ground wire and nix the thought of electronic methods , there not proven and will only cause heat due to high currents resulting in a possible fire. Good luck.

 

[moeinglory]

So you connect a switchmode power supply across the switch, so when the switch is OFF, the power supply powers the circuit, then when the switch is ON, or the circuit is driving the triac which is in parallel with the switch, the circuit is powered by the load current using the series powering arrangement?

Yes, I think that would be workable.

I'm finding it quite difficult to communicate with you.

I think you should use schematic diagrams, and more detailed explanations, to make your ideas clear.

For your application, I don't think a microcontroller is needed.

I don't understand your other questions.

Here is the block diagram. i havent schematic because i dont know what i must do!!!!!

 

[moeinglory]

So you connect a switchmode power supply across the switch, so when the switch is OFF, the power supply powers the circuit, then when the switch is ON, or the circuit is driving the triac which is in parallel with the switch, the circuit is powered by the load current using the series powering arrangement?

Yes, I think that would be workable.

Yes . i don not use mechanical switch any more. and power circuit with load current when the load is ON. and in OFF time its simple to run it. if need i can use relay to ON-OFF load.

 

[moeinglory]

I don't understand your other questions.

Can you explain what is the triac rule exactly in your circuit diagram please? i mean can i use relay instead of triac? tanx a lot

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

Yes you can use a relay instead of a triac as long as you have enough supply current available. Relays (especially high current ones) need quite a bit of coil current. With a 2200W load, I don't think that will be a problem!

Can you confirm that you want to use a switching power supply, powered from the voltage across the relay contacts, to power the circuit when the load is OFF?

 

[moeinglory]

Yes you can use a relay instead of a triac as long as you have enough supply current available. Relays (especially high current ones) need quite a bit of coil current. With a 2200W load, I don't think that will be a problem!

Can you confirm that you want to use a switching power supply, powered from the voltage across the relay contacts, to power the circuit when the load is OFF?

OK! so the triac has no rule to providing current and voltage when the load is ON its just a switch like a relay but with low current. is that right?

and..... yesss, confirmed . we discussing about the load ON times. when its OFF any power supply will be work. we need the power supply for times the load is on to switch relay or triac OFF and keep whole circuit alive!!

 

[moeinglory]

Yes you can use a relay instead of a triac as long as you have enough supply current available. Relays (especially high current ones) need quite a bit of coil current. With a 2200W load, I don't think that will be a problem!

Can you confirm that you want to use a switching power supply, powered from the voltage across the relay contacts, to power the circuit when the load is OFF?

and excuse me but in your fanrunon diagram. your diode don not convert AC voltage to DC?
we need AC voltage on load.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

OK! so the triac has no rule to providing current and voltage when the load is ON its just a switch like a relay but with low current. is that right?

I'm not sure what you mean, but yes, a triac operates as a switch, like a relay, with a lower trigger current. I think in this application a triac might be a better option than a relay, but I'm not sure.

and..... yesss, confirmed . we discussing about the load ON times. when its OFF any power supply will be work. we need the power supply for times the load is on to switch relay or triac OFF and keep whole circuit alive!!

OK. I think the idea is workable.

and excuse me but in your fanrunon diagram. your diode don not convert AC voltage to DC? we need AC voltage on load.

The bridge rectifier connects between the AC supply and the load. The load still sees AC, but the waveform is not a perfect sine wave - it has a reduced voltage, and gaps at zero-crossings. The bridge provides DC for the circuit, but the voltage to the load is still AC.

How much room is available for your circuit? Does it have to fit inside a switch recess? Will it have any ventilation?

I have very little experience with this kind of circuitry. You have a 2200W inductive load (a pump) running at 230VAC. This requires special know-how to make a reliable circuit. I am not confident that I can design a circuit that will work reliably for a long time. I need input from others on the forum who have experience with this kind of work.

Steve, are you following this thread? duke37? GonzoEngineer? Can you help me with this?

The things that I'm worried about are:

The relays that I've looked at (e.g. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/JTN1AS-PA-F-DC6V/255-3689-ND/648655) are not specified for inductive loads. Would a relay or a triac be more suitable for this application? I would definitely prefer to use a triac because of the much lower drive current.

The load is inductive, so the relay contacts, or triac, need to be snubbed. What values of R and C do you suggest? Any other suggestions for protecting the switching device?

Powering the circuit while the load is running involves inserting a bridge rectifier in series with it, with a series chain of diodes across the DC output of the bridge rectifier, as shown in post #10. The BYV79E-200 at http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/BYV79E-200,127/568-3440-ND is rated for 14A. Do you think it's suitable? It's a high-speed diode, but Digikey don't seem to have any slow rectifiers rated at such a high current.

I think I should have a capacitor across the bridge rectifier input. Something like http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/DME1W3P3K-F/338-3180-ND/1929577 (3.3 µF, 65VAC, metallised polyester) to help protect the diodes against spikes. What do you think? Do you think I should also insert some inductance in series with the bridge?

Instead of using a switching power supply, with unknown quality, reliability and startup timing behaviour, I would rather use a small transformer such as http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/PL5.0-16-130B/MT3114-ND/98275 (8VAC, 5VA). Comments?

Are there any other things I should be worrying about?

moeinglory:

If I do design a circuit for you, you must agree to take full responsibility for your own safety and the reliable and safe construction and installation of the circuit. I cannot be there watching over your shoulder to make sure you do everything properly, so you (or your relatives, if you electrocute yourself) cannot, and must not try to, hold me responsible for anything that goes wrong. That also means that you need to read, understand, and follow all of your local regulations that relate to the project. You need to agree to this.

I would also like you to add your Location to your profile so we all know where you are.

If I get some good responses from others on the forum, I will draw up a block diagram for further feedback.

 

[moeinglory]

.

Ok, of course i have full responsiblity of circuit and all consequence is just with and for me!!
and if you think triac is better so i can use it instead of relay.

 

[moeinglory]

Look. i need the circuit give me 5 volt and 300 mA when the load is ON. i use this circuit to keep my system alive. my wireless receiver, so i can send the command to turn the pump off.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

Your wireless receiver needs 300 mA? That sounds like an awful lot.

Can you put your location in your profile?

 

[moeinglory]

I design before this system with MOSFET and OpAmp and relay but just for 500 to 1000watt max. its something like 2 wire electronic switch (LIVOLO) if you have seen them before,
but i have 2200watt load. and that circuit was complicates really.
so i have acquaintance with this types of circuit. but i need something simple and efficient rather than those system.
I driving AC voltage with electronic circuit in different ways and know all problems for me is neutral absence,..

 

[moeinglory]

Your wireless receiver needs 300 mA? That sounds like an awful lot.

Can you put your location in your profile?

no its not just for my wireless i have 555 ic and decode ic and relay. for all of tis i almost need 200 - 300 mA.

of course right now !!!

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

I'm working on a schematic now. In the meantime, can you please answer these questions:

Can you give me some information on your remote control receiver?
What are the characteristics of its output?
How much room is available for your circuit?
Does it have to fit inside a switch recess?
Will it have any ventilation?
What are your local regulations relating to fireproofing?

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

moeinglory, I'm sorry, I've changed my mind about this project. I don't believe this project is safe and I will not be involved with it. This is what I recommend you do.

Get a qualified industrial electrician to install a suitable switching device that can be controlled by a low-voltage control signal. Power your receiver from a standard power supply and use it to control that switching device.

 

[moeinglory]

moeinglory, I'm sorry, I've changed my mind about this project. I don't believe this project is safe and I will not be involved with it. This is what I recommend you do.

Get a qualified industrial electrician to install a suitable switching device that can be controlled by a low-voltage control signal. Power your receiver from a standard power supply and use it to control that switching device.

ok tanx. but what i do with neutral absence, and i dont think it be dangrous as you say.
please check out this link and tell me what you think they do?
http://www.livolo.com.tr/products6.asp

Installation is as same as normal light switch, so does not require Negative line; Replace traditional wall switch completely and smoothly.
i even try one of them!
and picture i attached is inside of the 2 wire electronic switch (livolo)

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

I know there's no Neutral wire in the switch recess. I don't think you should be installing the switching device (whatever it is) in the switch recess. A qualified industrial electrician would not do that. He would install it on the switchboard, or somewhere similar, where Neutral connections are available.

The Livolo products are lighting controllers. A 2200W pump is very different! A qualified industrial electrician will know about these things. Livolo does claim that their lighting controllers work without a Neutral connection (they call it "negative" - not a good sign (pardon the pun)). The board in the picture you attached has two relays and four connection points.

 

[moeinglory]

I know there's no Neutral wire in the switch recess. I don't think you should be installing the switching device (whatever it is) in the switch recess. A qualified industrial electrician would not do that. He would install it on the switchboard, or somewhere similar, where Neutral connections are available.

The Livolo products are lighting controllers. A 2200W pump is very different! A qualified industrial electrician will know about these things. Livolo does claim that their lighting controllers work without a Neutral connection (they call it "negative" - not a good sign (pardon the pun)). The board in the picture you attached has two relays and four connection points.

ok so if you want control 1000w lighting? what you do?
i used one of this (livolo) switches before, its really 2 wire and don not need neutral(or negative) and picture is for 2 gang key. 4 point is line in. out 1 out 2 and com(ground) or( earth) that no need to connect to switch work. i try this more and more and its just need the line wire for working really, you assume i want to control 1000w light . what method you suggest?

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

I told you what I suggest. Get a professional industrial electrician to install an appropriate switching device in a suitable place such as a switchboard where Neutral is available.

 

[moeinglory]

I told you what I suggest. Get a professional industrial electrician to install an appropriate switching device in a suitable place such as a switchboard where Neutral is available.

OK anyway thank you. for your time and help.