PIRs for house with ceiling heating & cooling vents and "pets"!

[eddy]

I recently had an alarm system installed, consisting of a NX-16 panel,
magnetic reeds on all doors and DSC encore PIRs in the main living
areas. The PIRs, according to the installer are immune to small pets.
In my case the pets consist of one 12kg Cavalier King charles spaniel
who spends all his time sleeping and a 8kg, 15 year old cat who sleeps
even more! Then there are the 2 Roomba discovery automatic vacuum
cleaners, dinner plate size gadgets who run around the house at
regular intervals sucking up debris.

However, it was not this collection of pets who appear to have caused
the problem. I also have heating and cooling ducts in the ceiling
because the house is all on one level and built on a concrete slab. At
the moment, because it's still early spring here, the heating
occasionally comes on at 6.30pm. Because I sometimes get home only
after 7.30pm, the heating has been running for around an hour. Over
the last 8 weeks, practically every PIR in the house has falsed at
least once after 6.30pm. Some of the heating ducts are within 3 ft of
the PIR.

To be absolutely sure, I have actually "banished" the pets from the
house, but the false alarms still continue.

To make matters worse, even if I did disable the timers that operate
the thermostat, my heating unit is a ceiling mounted model which has a
fan controller that is triggered by the ambient temperature inside the
unit. In days that are hot enough, the heat in the roof is actually
high enough to trick the fans into coming on, which in turns causes
warm air to circulate into the house. And this has caused at least one
false alarm ...

In a situation like mine, are there PIRs which are capable of handling
the disturbance from the heating ducts, or is the only option to have
the PIRs removed from the security system ?

rgds, Ed

 

[alarman]

I recently had an alarm system installed, consisting of a NX-16 panel,
magnetic reeds on all doors and DSC encore PIRs in the main living
areas. The PIRs, according to the installer are immune to small pets.
In my case the pets consist of one 12kg Cavalier King charles spaniel
who spends all his time sleeping and a 8kg, 15 year old cat who sleeps
even more! Then there are the 2 Roomba discovery automatic vacuum
cleaners, dinner plate size gadgets who run around the house at
regular intervals sucking up debris.

However, it was not this collection of pets who appear to have caused
the problem. I also have heating and cooling ducts in the ceiling
because the house is all on one level and built on a concrete slab. At
the moment, because it's still early spring here, the heating
occasionally comes on at 6.30pm. Because I sometimes get home only
after 7.30pm, the heating has been running for around an hour. Over
the last 8 weeks, practically every PIR in the house has falsed at
least once after 6.30pm. Some of the heating ducts are within 3 ft of
the PIR.

To be absolutely sure, I have actually "banished" the pets from the
house, but the false alarms still continue.

To make matters worse, even if I did disable the timers that operate
the thermostat, my heating unit is a ceiling mounted model which has a
fan controller that is triggered by the ambient temperature inside the
unit. In days that are hot enough, the heat in the roof is actually
high enough to trick the fans into coming on, which in turns causes
warm air to circulate into the house. And this has caused at least one
false alarm ...

In a situation like mine, are there PIRs which are capable of handling
the disturbance from the heating ducts, or is the only option to have
the PIRs removed from the security system ?

rgds, Ed

The PIR's were installed (located) incorrectly by an inexperienced
installer. They need to be relocated away from the heatong ducts, or at the
least, replaced with dual-technology units. Who did the install?

 

[eddy]

The PIR's were installed (located) incorrectly by an inexperienced
installer. They need to be relocated away from the heatong ducts, or at the
least, replaced with dual-technology units. Who did the install?

--
js

- The bigger they are, the harder they fall.
( Also, the harder they bite, punch, and kick.)

Hi alarman,

Yes, some of the PIRs are actually quite close to the heating ducts.
The people who did the install are a Melbourne company called Insec
security http://www.insec.com.au/ (Yes I am in Australia) . I have
already called them. So hopefully they can do something. However, the
guy I spoke to is trying to get me to accept that this is the way it
is, and that I should never ever let my heating come on when the
alarms are armed. If he is correct, I might have to get some highly
paid heating technician or electrician to figure out how to ensure the
heaters can be totally disabled!

On the idea of dual tech PIRs, if I understand the theory correctly,
is it because of the microwave element that this technology might be
less vulnerable to alarming when the heaters come on?

 

[Nomen Nescio]

Yes, some of the PIRs are actually quite close to the heating ducts.

The people who did the install are a Melbourne company called Insec
security http://www.insec.com.au/ (Yes I am in Australia) . I have
already called them. So hopefully they can do something. However, the
guy I spoke to is trying to get me to accept that this is the way it
is, and that I should never ever let my heating come on when the
alarms are armed.

I concur with alarman; the motion detectors are not installed properly. As
a general rule, you should not be able to feel any strong drafts at the
motion detector, and this applies to dual tech units as well as to straight
PIRs. Three feet away from a register is entirely too close. The solution
is moving the units to a different location, not installing dual techs in
the same bad locations. Your alarm company is probably loath to do this
because it would mean running wire instead of just swapping equipment.

It is your alarm company's job to provide you with a system that works
reliably, not to tell you to turn off your heating system. If you aren't
getting satisfaction from the people you are talking to, discuss your
problem with the company's service manager.

 

[Kevin]

way it is, and that I should never >ever let my heating come on when
the alarms are armed.

That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.
However I want to say this guy must have a pretty large pair to say
that to you, as a customer of his. Certainly you should not have to
worry about normal residential heating and cooling issues with a
modern, properly installed motion detector. Now if you have a blast
furnace and are smelting steel, then there could be a real problem.
Short of that extreme he needs to fix the problem. It is not that
unusual to have motion detections issues on a new installation. Those
problems are easily taken care of most of the time with a single
return visit. I have nothing good to say about the DSC motion
detectors you've purchased. I have said and will say again that the
Bosch TriTech units would be far better detectors for you to have.

I Have 5 DSC encore motion detectors installed on my premises. I have to
say if installed properly they are very good units. In the 3 years my
system has been in service I have not had any false alarms attributed to
the motion detectors. In the interim maybe the system may be placed in
cross zone or double hit mode if available to reduce the possibility of
these false alarms.

 

[alarman]

Hi alarman,

Yes, some of the PIRs are actually quite close to the heating ducts.
The people who did the install are a Melbourne company called Insec
security http://www.insec.com.au/ (Yes I am in Australia) . I have
already called them. So hopefully they can do something. However, the
guy I spoke to is trying to get me to accept that this is the way it
is, and that I should never ever let my heating come on when the
alarms are armed. If he is correct, I might have to get some highly
paid heating technician or electrician to figure out how to ensure the
heaters can be totally disabled!

On the idea of dual tech PIRs, if I understand the theory correctly,
is it because of the microwave element that this technology might be
less vulnerable to alarming when the heaters come on?

Yes, that's the idea.

Oh, and your alarmco is full of shit. Get them to replace the PIR's they
installed incorrectly, with dual-tech units, or move them. I lean toward the
dual techs.

 

[alarman]

I have said and will say again that the Bosch TriTech units would be far
better detectors for you to have.

I used to use those when they were Detection Systems. They were not so hot.
I am still replacing units with inoperative microwave components. DS knew
about it, and shipped them anyway. We're done.
js

 

[Frank Olson]

Hi alarman,

Yes, some of the PIRs are actually quite close to the heating ducts.
The people who did the install are a Melbourne company called Insec
security http://www.insec.com.au/ (Yes I am in Australia) . I have
already called them. So hopefully they can do something. However, the
guy I spoke to is trying to get me to accept that this is the way it
is, and that I should never ever let my heating come on when the
alarms are armed. If he is correct, I might have to get some highly
paid heating technician or electrician to figure out how to ensure the
heaters can be totally disabled!

On the idea of dual tech PIRs, if I understand the theory correctly,
is it because of the microwave element that this technology might be
less vulnerable to alarming when the heaters come on?

Have a look at the Paradox DG-75. They're an extremely stable PIR.
IMHO, one of the best units out there. http://www.paradox.com

 

[tourman]

The DS835 with the flashing LED?

Mr Campbell loves that one

RHC: Detection Systems for a long time shipped units out to the field
with faulty microwave components AND THEY KNEW ABOUT IT...turned me
right off !! However, the company was bought out by Bosch as I
remember, and the new Bosch combination PIR and microwave units are
splendid devices. As my standard motion, I have been using the Paradox
DG 75 units, but lately, I have had a number of unexplainable failures
which in several cases has caused me to eat false alarm fees. Near as
I can tell, they either had a bad run of units, or perhaps they have
shifted their production to China with the resulting cheapening of
product quality...dunno. Mind you, I still use them in large
quantities and I remain happy with them overall.

DSC motions I won't touch at all....far too cheap and far too "hot"
with a propensity to false alarm too easily given any environmental
oddity....IMO.

 

[Frank Olson]

RHC: Detection Systems for a long time shipped units out to the field
with faulty microwave components AND THEY KNEW ABOUT IT...turned me
right off !! However, the company was bought out by Bosch as I
remember, and the new Bosch combination PIR and microwave units are
splendid devices. As my standard motion, I have been using the Paradox
DG 75 units, but lately, I have had a number of unexplainable failures
which in several cases has caused me to eat false alarm fees. Near as
I can tell, they either had a bad run of units, or perhaps they have
shifted their production to China with the resulting cheapening of
product quality...dunno. Mind you, I still use them in large
quantities and I remain happy with them overall.

DSC motions I won't touch at all....far too cheap and far too "hot"
with a propensity to false alarm too easily given any environmental
oddity....IMO.

Actually, I've had one Bravo 3 in my house for about a year now (OK,
OK... I couldn't say "no" to Angela at Tried when she said "try one").
Even with the stupid cat, I haven't had a single problem.

 

[tourman]

Actually, I've had one Bravo 3 in my house for about a year now (OK,

OK... I couldn't say "no" to Angela at Tried when she said "try one").
Even with the stupid cat, I haven't had a single problem.

RHC: Count your blessings then ! All these cheap little motions have
no "forgiveness" built in.

An analogy I use to explain motions to clients goes something like
this. Think of a motion as a glass of water. A cheap motions is like a
glass of water with the meniscus full, and even a slight jiggle or
movement spills water from the glass. With the better motions,
especially the dual techs, it's like a glass of water with the
meniscus in a negative mode. You can jiggle it and nothing happens
because there is some very little bit of space left in the glass But
any real alarm is like hitting the glass with a hammer

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it works to explain the
differences to non technical folks.

 

[tourman]

Somebody was in the chemistry lab way too long.
Next you'll be telling us about the stoichiometry of claculating the mass of
an intruder.

RHC: "Claculating".......

Nah !....that was Professor B with his tinfoil suit who claimed to
avoid detection by a motion detector. BTW, I wonder where our friend
with the Loxxon alarm system is these days.

 

[Jim]

Feasting on fresh Brazilian Rain Forrest piranha?
Hopefully not vice versa.

You have your "B's" mixed up.

I don't think you were here when the original Professor B was.

A whole other saga in the history of ASA.

 

[Jim]

RHC: "Claculating".......

Nah !....that was Professor B with his tinfoil suit who claimed to
avoid detection by a motion detector. BTW, I wonder where our friend
with the Loxxon alarm system is these days.

SHUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[eddy]

Yes, that's the idea.

Oh, and your alarmco is full of shit. Get them to replace the PIR's they
installed incorrectly, with dual-tech units, or move them. I lean toward the
dual techs.

--
js

- The bigger they are, the harder they fall.
( Also, the harder they bite, punch, and kick.)

Folks,

Update on the drama with my system. The company has agreed to replace
the DSC pirs with Bosch Tritech units (They also call them blue line).
The bad news ... they cost a lot more. Even if they are not charging
me labour, its still working out to an additional AUD$660, thats 6
units in total. As expected, the family are not supporting me on this
one. Yes, I did complain and kick up a fuss, but they are standing
firm on the fact that they are only charging me the difference in the
cost of my originals and the new units. What I can't figure out is,
pirs in general seem to cost a lot more here in Aus than say in the US
or UK. I took a look at Bass's online store ... for 6 units, without
shipping, it's still only a third of what I am spending here. I have
called around a few other local companies, and they are all charging
way above US rates, in fact the cost I got from my installer is
cheap ... hmmm, maybe I should get them shipped from the US!!

 

[Frank Olson]

Folks,

Update on the drama with my system. The company has agreed to replace
the DSC pirs with Bosch Tritech units (They also call them blue line).
The bad news ... they cost a lot more. Even if they are not charging
me labour, its still working out to an additional AUD$660, thats 6
units in total. As expected, the family are not supporting me on this
one. Yes, I did complain and kick up a fuss, but they are standing
firm on the fact that they are only charging me the difference in the
cost of my originals and the new units. What I can't figure out is,
pirs in general seem to cost a lot more here in Aus than say in the US
or UK. I took a look at Bass's online store ... for 6 units, without
shipping, it's still only a third of what I am spending here. I have
called around a few other local companies, and they are all charging
way above US rates, in fact the cost I got from my installer is
cheap ... hmmm, maybe I should get them shipped from the US!!

That may seem like a good idea. The only thing is that you'll have to
find a friendly local company to install them. You can try some of the
online stores here: http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/buyingonline.htm.

 

[thesbian]

Update on the drama with my system. The company has agreed to replace
the DSC pirs with Bosch Tritech units (They also call them blue line).
The bad news ... they cost a lot more. Even if they are not charging
me labour, its still working out to an additional AUD$660, thats 6
units in total. As expected, the family are not supporting me on this
one. Yes, I did complain and kick up a fuss, but they are standing
firm on the fact that they are only charging me the difference in the
cost of my originals and the new units. What I can't figure out is,
pirs in general seem to cost a lot more here in Aus than say in the US
or UK. I took a look at Bass's online store ... for 6 units, without
shipping, it's still only a third of what I am spending here. I have
called around a few other local companies, and they are all charging
way above US rates, in fact the cost I got from my installer is
cheap ... hmmm, maybe I should get them shipped from the US!!

either you have a HUGE house or you have too many motion sensors.
eliminate all but a few 'critical' ones and live happily ever after.

 

[Nomen Nescio]

eddy said:

Update on the drama with my system. The company has agreed to replace
the DSC pirs with Bosch Tritech units (They also call them blue line).
The bad news ... they cost a lot more.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating:

Don't automatically assume that all of your problems will be solved by
installing dual technology detectors. Detector placement is extremely
important for reliable performance, and dual technology is not a substitute
for good installation practices.

For example, I can think of a place that suddenly had LOTS of false alarms
one night, even though dual tech sensors were in use. No previous
problems. Turned out they had just gotten a new space heater (a big one,
with a fan that blew hot air directly at the detector every twenty seconds
or so). You could stand there and watch the unit trip when the hot air hit
it! That's an extreme case, and the fan was blowing very hard, even though
it was ten feet away.

The point being, first install the detectors in the proper locations. Dual
technology is a good idea, but it's not a cure-all.

- badenov

 

[Frank Olson]

No need to shush, it appears the website is down so we can safely guess that
cooper and Professor B are sharing a spot under some freeway in Germany
right about now

They're actually running a fishing guide service in the Amazon. They
started out by selling "boat anchors".

 

[Frank Olson]

And I hear some fish have become deadly ill after consuming parts of cetain
guides gone overboard.

Serves them right!