Pirated Press N Peel for Making PCB's

[D from BC]

Over the years I've collected a few ways to make PCB's and on
occasion I do revisit Press N Peel.
What's that blue stuff anyways?

The blue has a matte finish like flat paint on a film that is
probably just plain laser transparency film.

Most laquer coatings may have too much adhesion to the
transparency film.

Acrylic primers are matte like the Blue stuff but I suspect may
not handle the laser printer heat.

So....I'm wondering if I could make my own Press N Peel by
getting a can of BBQ paint (high heat rating probably due to
silicone) and spraying it on laser transparency film?

Bye bye laser printer?

Any coating ideas?

 

[[email protected]]

Over the years I've collected a few ways to make PCB's and on
occasion I do revisit Press N Peel.
What's that blue stuff anyways?

The blue has a matte finish like flat paint on a film that is
probably just plain laser transparency film.

Most laquer coatings may have too much adhesion to the
transparency film.

Acrylic primers are matte like the Blue stuff but I suspect may
not handle the laser printer heat.

So....I'm wondering if I could make my own Press N Peel by
getting a can of BBQ paint (high heat rating probably due to
silicone) and spraying it on laser transparency film?

Bye bye laser printer?

Any coating ideas?

People who use the toner transfer method have repeatedly gotten good
results using glossy inkjet photo paper with laser printers. Good ones
will cost you roughly 20 cents each.

The trick is to try lots of different brands to find one you're
comfortable working with. Different types of glossy paper behave
differently. The original method recommends you soak the paper&board in
warm soapy water and slowly peel away the layers of paper. Some work
better with cold water. Some work without soaking - exactly like
press-n-peel. The one I'm using works best if you peel it without
soaking while it's still hot (usually between 1 to 2.5 seconds after I
lift the iron).

Of course, some people feel they shouldn't be using inkjet paper in a
laser printer. Haven't damaged my old HP Laserjet yet.

 

[[email protected]]

So....I'm wondering if I could make my own Press N Peel by
getting a can of BBQ paint (high heat rating probably due to
silicone) and spraying it on laser transparency film?

Bye bye laser printer?

Any coating ideas?

I think the universe will shrink into a quantum black hole and I still
won't understand you DIY PCB guys. Just send your gerbers to Olimex and
you'll get a complete PCB with soldermask and plated through holes for
like 40$.
You can't pay me enough to spend my precious free time dicking around
with paper and toner and chemicals to end up with a product inferior in
every respect.
But it's your time to waste I suppose.

 

[DJ Delorie]

Just send your gerbers to Olimex and you'll get a complete PCB with
soldermask and plated through holes for like 40$.

That's more than it would cost to DIY, and we won't get it for a
couple of weeks. Aside from the mask and PTH, why is that better?

Besides, making PCBs is fun. You get to make something with your own
two hands, and it's ready to use right away.

 

[[email protected]]

That's more than it would cost to DIY, and we won't get it for a

Is your time free? That's amazing, I've got a few projects here for you
to work on!

I don't get it. Is 40$ that much money to get a real PCB made? I'm
honestly baffled. I think if you try it once, you'll never ever waste
your time and energy making a PCB, it's just ridiculous. Isn't it more
fun to concentrate on the electronics than on the paper, chemicals and
drilling?

I mean, how much have you spent on tools, time and materials to get to
the point where you can make a PCB and be sure it solders properly,
doesn't have over-etch, and how do you make anything even remotely
useful without PTH? Wouldn't that time and money be better spent on
electronics?

 

[James Morrison]

That's more than it would cost to DIY

Only if you count your own time a $0/hour. Anything else makes the
cheap PCB houses win out in cost.

, and we won't get it for a
couple of weeks.

There are places with faster turnaround than that. Alberta Printed
Circuits comes to mind.

Aside from the mask and PTH, why is that better?

To me the mask is the hands-down best part. Without solder mask it is
so easy to have a short that can cause enormous debugging costs because
there happens to be a short somewhere. Again, time = money so this
alone makes it worthwhile.

Besides, making PCBs is fun. You get to make something with your own
two hands, and it's ready to use right away.

I'm not so sure about the fun factor. There are a million other things
I'd consider doing for fun before making a PCB by hand.

James.

 

[DJ Delorie]

Is your time free?

When I'm doing my hobby stuff, yes.

I don't get it. Is 40$ that much money to get a real PCB made? I'm
honestly baffled. I think if you try it once, you'll never ever waste
your time and energy making a PCB, it's just ridiculous.

I've done both, I know the difference. If I need a small board with
mostly SMD parts on it, or a throw-away board to try something, I just
make it myself. It doesn't take that long, and I don't have to wait
for it.

Why should I spend $40 for a board with $3 worth of parts on it, when
I can make it in 20-25 minutes? My day job pays $50/hour, so any
board move expensive than $25 is not worth my time to pay someone else
to make, if I can (as usual) make it in half an hour.

Isn't it more fun to concentrate on the electronics than on the
paper, chemicals and drilling?

Hmmm... when it's a hobby, and I spend weeks on the design and half an
hour on the pcb? Sure.

Wouldn't that time and money be better spent on electronics?

Why spend all that time and money on electronics? Would it be better
to buy a cheap knock-off from China?

Perspective. I like making stuff myself. When the effort exceeds the
fun factor, and I can affort the cost/time, I send out.

 

[Archilochus]

I think the universe will shrink into a quantum black hole and I still
won't understand you DIY PCB guys. Just send your gerbers to Olimex and
you'll get a complete PCB with soldermask and plated through holes for
like 40$.
You can't pay me enough to spend my precious free time dicking around
with paper and toner and chemicals to end up with a product inferior in
every respect.
But it's your time to waste I suppose.

Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
be around 1.5" sq. for all sorts of assorted dumb projects. Shelling
out 40 bucks for that kind of stuff could get mighty expensive! And the
inevitable changes in design that need a new PCB would up the cost &
wait time even more.

Arch

 

[Archilochus]

I think the universe will shrink into a quantum black hole and I still
won't understand you DIY PCB guys. Just send your gerbers to Olimex and
you'll get a complete PCB with soldermask and plated through holes for
like 40$.
You can't pay me enough to spend my precious free time dicking around
with paper and toner and chemicals to end up with a product inferior in
every respect.
But it's your time to waste I suppose.

Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
be around 1.5" sq. for all sorts of assorted dumb projects. Shelling
out 40 bucks for that kind of stuff could get mighty expensive! And the
inevitable changes in design that need a new PCB would up the cost &
wait time even more.

Arch

 

[DJ Delorie]

To me the mask is the hands-down best part. Without solder mask it is
so easy to have a short that can cause enormous debugging costs because
there happens to be a short somewhere.

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/smd-challenge/

The two prototypes were home-made boards with NO mask or silk, and
both worked just fine. That's 01005 capacitors and 0.4mm pitch ICs.
Besides, on parts that fine, cheap proto houses can't put mask between
the pins anyway. The last board I sent out was that way for the
smallest pitch parts (some 0.64mm and all 0.5mm). (and don't say "pay
for better" because this is a hobby)

Yes, mask helps a lot, but it is *not* always required.

Here's the 01005 cap:

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/first.html

Also, some of the home-brew folks can print masks at home with
modified inkjet printers.

 

[DJ Delorie]

Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
be around 1.5" sq. for all sorts of assorted dumb projects. Shelling

My smallest board so far is 0.2 by 0.5 inches. That's 0.1 sq.in.
It's an adapter to plug an SMD RGB LED into a breadboard.

 

[[email protected]]

Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
be around 1.5" sq. for all sorts of assorted dumb projects. Shelling
out 40 bucks for that kind of stuff could get mighty expensive! And the
inevitable changes in design that need a new PCB would up the cost &
wait time even more.

Arch

You do realize you can put more than one PCB on your panel?

 

[D from BC]

For some designs I'd let a PCB house do my board. For risky designs
I sometimes like DIY.

My record DIY PCB turnaround is about 1hour. So it gets
tempting..Especially on a long weekend when the PCB houses might be
closed.

 

[Archilochus]

I think the universe will shrink into a quantum black hole and I still
won't understand you DIY PCB guys. Just send your gerbers to Olimex and
you'll get a complete PCB with soldermask and plated through holes for
like 40$.
You can't pay me enough to spend my precious free time dicking around
with paper and toner and chemicals to end up with a product inferior in
every respect.
But it's your time to waste I suppose.

Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
be around 1.5" sq. for all sorts of assorted dumb projects. Shelling
out 40 bucks for that kind of stuff could get mighty expensive! And the
inevitable changes in design that need a new PCB would up the cost &
wait time even more.

Arch

 

[D from BC]

Think about the electronics newbies and the horror of doing PCB
fk up after fk up...$40.00 iterations and time can add up.
I've messed up with trace resistance,creepage,electric or mag
pick up, classic grounding problems...

Is your time free?

When I'm doing my hobby stuff, yes.

I don't get it. Is 40$ that much money to get a real PCB made? I'm
honestly baffled. I think if you try it once, you'll never ever waste
your time and energy making a PCB, it's just ridiculous.

I've done both, I know the difference. If I need a small board
with
mostly SMD parts on it, or a throw-away board to try something,
I just
make it myself. It doesn't take that long, and I don't have to
wait
for it.

Why should I spend $40 for a board with $3 worth of parts on it,
when
I can make it in 20-25 minutes? My day job pays $50/hour, so
any
board move expensive than $25 is not worth my time to pay
someone else
to make, if I can (as usual) make it in half an hour.

Isn't it more fun to concentrate on the electronics than on the
paper, chemicals and drilling?

Hmmm... when it's a hobby, and I spend weeks on the design and
half an
hour on the pcb? Sure.

Wouldn't that time and money be better spent on electronics?

Why spend all that time and money on electronics? Would it be
better
to buy a cheap knock-off from China?

Perspective. I like making stuff myself. When the effort
exceeds the
fun factor, and I can affort the cost/time, I send out.
..

 

[DJ Delorie]

Think about the electronics newbies and the horror of doing PCB fk
up after fk up...$40.00 iterations and time can add up.

I've been doing my own boards since high school. It's a learning
experience, but so? I'd rather learn from experience than never learn
at all. Plus I didn't have the $40 back then.

Besides, "newbies" are hopefully starting out with simpler circuits,
too, which won't be that demanding on the board.

I've messed up with trace resistance,creepage,electric or mag pick
up, classic grounding problems...

If you need that kind of precision in board fab, yeah, have it made.
Like I said, I do both, because I know how well I can make a board and
when I should have someone else do it.

 

[[email protected]]

Only if you count your own time a $0/hour. Anything else makes the
cheap PCB houses win out in cost.

Let's do some calculation (converted to US$). Based on my salary my
time is $7/hour.
Let's ignore the time spent in CAD since I'll have to do it either way.
I use the toner transfer method so let's also include cost of
consumables:

Glossy paper: 20 cents.
Copper plated board: $4, we won't be using all of it for a small PCB so
let's assume 20 cents.
Time to print = 30 seconds * salary ~= 6 cents
Ironing time = 3 minutes * salary ~= 35 cents
Etching time = 10 minutes (is actually less but depends on how fresh my
etchant is) * salary ~= $1.20
Washing etc = 2 minutes * salary ~= 23 cents
Lets assume we need some corrections (rare these days with my workflow)
= 5 minutes * salary ~= 58 cents

Total cost inclusive of my time: $2.82

That's a lot cheaper than the cheapest PCB house around here at $42.
And consider that the $42 price is if I pick up my PCB from the factory
(actually quite near my house) so I'll be wasting my time driving
there.

I decided to learn DIY PCB making because a lot of newer chips are only
available in surface mount packages and neither sending out my gerber
nor buying SMD to DIN adaptors were cost effective. SMD to DIN adaptors
are anywhere from $10 to $30 around here so it's still cheaper to DIY
my prototypes.

And the time spent "learning" the process wasn't much either. I
basically got it right in a weekend. Of course, a lot depends on the
quality of your materials so YMMV but once you've got it right it only
takes 20 minutes to do a full PCB (depends on your etchant, Hydrogen
Peroxide + Acid is very fast at room temp without a bubble tank).

 

[samiam]

I think the universe will shrink into a quantum black hole and I still
won't understand you DIY PCB guys. Just send your gerbers to Olimex and
you'll get a complete PCB with soldermask and plated through holes for
like 40$.

that sir is INSANITY!!!

I can have a board ready to drill out an 1/2 hour after the layout is
done. TOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a bench press and drill. since vias are all the same size,
pin/pads etc I can drill out the entire board in under an hour (I take
my time here, and some of my hobby boards are up to 8x8 in size)

then i am ready to mount and solder components, make whatever changes I
deem necessary as I go along.

I gurantee you Ill have the board ready for testing the same day (in
only a few hours) and considerably CHEAPER to manufacture since I have
already made the investment in tools.

 

[samiam]

Why spend all that time and money on electronics? Would it be better
to buy a cheap knock-off from China?

Good response. I couldnt have said it better myself.

I remember the old days when people actually looked forward to getting
into the guts of a project, instead of outsourcing so much of it.

 

[DJ Delorie]

takes 20 minutes to do a full PCB (depends on your etchant, Hydrogen
Peroxide + Acid is very fast at room temp without a bubble tank).

FeCl is fast if you wipe it on with a sponge instead of just letting
it sit in the tank, even with agitation. You can somewhat control
overetching that way too, by only wiping the less-etched parts.