PiezoElectric Spark Ignitor

[Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\]

I walk down the alley on occasion, mostly looking at the pavement to
find 'road hazards'. I've picked up a record 106 of them this summer,
but I usually average between 2 and 10, mostly nails and drywall screws.
I think my had the main reason I haven't had a punctured tire in a year
or so.

But I've also found cigarette lighters on occasion, two of them
recently. These two happen to be the kind that uses a piezoelectric
spark ignitor to light the butane. Usually the lighter has been run
over and the guts are easily discarded, or the lighter can be
dsassembled easily and the ignitor can be removed easily.

I'm wondering if anyone has been shocked by one of these. Or been
tempted to stick their finger in there and see what it's like. :-O The
spark isn't very hot, but it's up to a quarter inch, maybe several kV.

But what I'm really curious about is what the output waveform is. I
assume it's a damped sine wave but I don't have a HV probe for my 'scope
and I don't want to subject my existing probe to such a huge voltage.
I'd like to connect some light emitting devices to the ouput of this,
but right now my guess is that the HV would zap a LED on the reverse
half of the cycle. I could connect a NE-2 or a whole string of NE-2s to
it and get some light output, but I'll have to fool around, er,
experiment with those to see what's gonna happen. I'll have to make
some kind of lever to make it easier to squeeze the clicker, since the
bare unit is more than a little bit awkward.

Any experimental advice is appreciated. Thanks.

--
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[Chuck Harris]

I walk down the alley on occasion, mostly looking at the pavement to
find 'road hazards'. I've picked up a record 106 of them this summer,
but I usually average between 2 and 10, mostly nails and drywall screws.
I think my had the main reason I haven't had a punctured tire in a year
or so.

But I've also found cigarette lighters on occasion, two of them
recently. These two happen to be the kind that uses a piezoelectric
spark ignitor to light the butane. Usually the lighter has been run
over and the guts are easily discarded, or the lighter can be
dsassembled easily and the ignitor can be removed easily.

I'm wondering if anyone has been shocked by one of these. Or been
tempted to stick their finger in there and see what it's like. :-O The
spark isn't very hot, but it's up to a quarter inch, maybe several kV.

But what I'm really curious about is what the output waveform is. I
assume it's a damped sine wave but I don't have a HV probe for my 'scope
and I don't want to subject my existing probe to such a huge voltage.
I'd like to connect some light emitting devices to the ouput of this,
but right now my guess is that the HV would zap a LED on the reverse
half of the cycle. I could connect a NE-2 or a whole string of NE-2s to
it and get some light output, but I'll have to fool around, er,
experiment with those to see what's gonna happen. I'll have to make
some kind of lever to make it easier to squeeze the clicker, since the
bare unit is more than a little bit awkward.

Any experimental advice is appreciated. Thanks.

Piezoelectric Transducers (PZTs) shrink in size for one polarity, and grow
in size for the other. They are reciprocal devices, so if you squeeze
them, they will produce the polarity that would ordinarily shrink them,
and if you stretch them, they will produce the other polarity.

Since the sparkers are just stacks of PZT material they work the same way.
When the striker smacks the stack, it squeezes it, and that makes it
produce a mostly DC pulse of rather high voltage. Since PZTs are really
just ceramic capacitors, if you squeeze the stack, and short it to zero,
when you release the squeeze, they will produce a voltage in the opposite
direction.

If you put a diode (in the correct direction), and a capacitor, in series
with the sparker, the capacitor will accept charge every time you click the
sparker, and you will have a manual HV generator. You can use this to
power flea sized HV devices, such as IR viewer tubes, Geiger-Muller tubes,
and neon lamps.

Since the pulse is unipolar, you can eliminate the diode by just using a
spark gap, but you will reduce the maximum voltage your supply can achieve
by the breakdown voltage of the gap.

-Chuck

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that "Watson A.Name -

But I've also found cigarette lighters on occasion, two of them
recently. These two happen to be the kind that uses a piezoelectric
spark ignitor to light the butane. Usually the lighter has been run
over and the guts are easily discarded, or the lighter can be
dsassembled easily and the ignitor can be removed easily.

I'm wondering if anyone has been shocked by one of these.

Yes. They are like cobras; no matter how carefully you handle one, it'll
bite you eventually.

Or been tempted to stick their finger in there and see what it's like.
:-O The spark isn't very hot, but it's up to a quarter inch, maybe
several kV.

5-6 kV.

But what I'm really curious about is what the output waveform is. I
assume it's a damped sine wave

Only if you add long lead-out wires. Otherwise it's short pulse. Think
of it as a 10 nF capacitor you charge by bending it.

but I don't have a HV probe for my 'scope and I don't want to subject
my existing probe to such a huge voltage.

You can make a capacitive divider, using a bit of window glass and some
foil for the HV cap at the top.

I'd like to connect some light emitting devices to the ouput of this,
but right now my guess is that the HV would zap a LED on the reverse
half of the cycle.

It would zap up to 1000 in series!

I could connect a NE-2 or a whole string of NE-2s to it and get some
light output, but I'll have to fool around, er, experiment with those
to see what's gonna happen.

If you use one 230 V neon, with 250 k+ series resistor, you get a bright
flash. Probably not the same if you use two 120 V neons in series,
because the series resistor is MUCH lower in value.

I'll have to make some kind of lever to make it easier to squeeze the
clicker, since the bare unit is more than a little bit awkward.

Yes, the crystals are very stiff.

 

[computer user]

You were wondering if anyone has been shocked by these...
When I was a kid we used to use them to zap each other. Especially on the
earlobe.
It was hilarious. It didn't really hurt that bad either. More of a build
up of fear of shock than an actual pain from the shock.

Jeff

 

[Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\]

I walk down the alley on occasion, mostly looking at the pavement to
find 'road hazards'. I've picked up a record 106 of them this summer,
but I usually average between 2 and 10, mostly nails and drywall screws.
I think my had the main reason I haven't had a punctured tire in a year
or so.

But I've also found cigarette lighters on occasion, two of them
recently. These two happen to be the kind that uses a piezoelectric
spark ignitor to light the butane. Usually the lighter has been run
over and the guts are easily discarded, or the lighter can be
dsassembled easily and the ignitor can be removed easily.

I'm wondering if anyone has been shocked by one of these. Or been
tempted to stick their finger in there and see what it's like. :-O The
spark isn't very hot, but it's up to a quarter inch, maybe several kV.

But what I'm really curious about is what the output waveform is. I
assume it's a damped sine wave but I don't have a HV probe for my 'scope
and I don't want to subject my existing probe to such a huge voltage.
I'd like to connect some light emitting devices to the ouput of this,
but right now my guess is that the HV would zap a LED on the reverse
half of the cycle. I could connect a NE-2 or a whole string of NE-2s to
it and get some light output, but I'll have to fool around, er,
experiment with those to see what's gonna happen. I'll have to make
some kind of lever to make it easier to squeeze the clicker, since the
bare unit is more than a little bit awkward.

Any experimental advice is appreciated. Thanks.

[snip]

If you put a diode (in the correct direction), and a capacitor, in series
with the sparker, the capacitor will accept charge every time you click the
sparker, and you will have a manual HV generator.

I already have a manual HV generator. ;-) I think you mean a manual HV
DC generator. The problem I have is that the diode has to be rated at
several kV, maybe 10kV or more. Same for the cap and whatever else is
connected to it. It's not like connecting a mechanical generator where
the voltges are 'only' a hundred volts. And I surmise that connecting
a dozen 1N4007 rectifier diodes in series isn't a good idea because they
may have too much capacitance and leakage that's more than the total
current from the piezo. Like the piezo is dealing with less than a
milliamp, and at 10kV, ten megohms isn't enough resistance, more than a
gigohm is more like it.

You can use this to
power flea sized HV devices, such as IR viewer tubes, Geiger-Muller tubes,
and neon lamps.

One click isn't a lot of current. I would have to have some kind of cam
affair to crank and drive the clicker at more than a click every few
seconds. I think the usefulness of rectifying and filtering the pulese
isn't really much good; like someone said, they're way too high an
impedance. The pulses should be used as pulses, to their best
advantage.

Since the pulse is unipolar, you can eliminate the diode by just using a
spark gap, but you will reduce the maximum voltage your supply can achieve
by the breakdown voltage of the gap.

I think there is some amount of reverse voltage, no matter how low it
is. But I'll never know as long as I don't have any HV probe or other
HV pulse measuring devices.

 

[Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that "Watson A.Name -


Yes. They are like cobras; no matter how carefully you handle one, it'll
bite you eventually.


5-6 kV.

Only if you add long lead-out wires. Otherwise it's short pulse. Think
of it as a 10 nF capacitor you charge by bending it.


You can make a capacitive divider, using a bit of window glass and some
foil for the HV cap at the top.

A bit of window glass? According to my ref manual the dielectric
constant of glass is 7.5, so I guess the idea is to get a reasonable
amount of capacitance in a small package. But I could just use a couple
plates spaced far enough apart to prevent arcing. But what should I be
using for the capacitances and ratio? Should I try for 100:1 divider,
or 50:1? 100 pF for the HV cap and 10,000 pF for the low? Or more for
both, or less for both? I may be able to find a few low value, high
voltage capacitors in my junk box, or from an old TV set. I wonder if a
3kV capacitor is enough, since it is going to load down the output of
the piezo element. Maybe I can put two in series to get half the
capacitance at twice the voltage. Lots of possibilities here, and may
have dire consequences if I make a wrong choice. Ah, well..

[snip]

 

[Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\]

You were wondering if anyone has been shocked by these...
When I was a kid we used to use them to zap each other. Especially on the
earlobe.
It was hilarious. It didn't really hurt that bad either. More of a build
up of fear of shock than an actual pain from the shock.

Jeff

I've seen some healthy sparks jump from my finger to a rail when
shuffling across a carper on a very dry day. But it's more of a
surprise than a shock to one not epxecting it. It's not all that bad.

 

[Ptaylor]

I've seen some healthy sparks jump from my finger to a rail when
shuffling across a carper on a very dry day. But it's more of a
surprise than a shock to one not epxecting it. It's not all that bad.

I've been shocked by them several times..intentionaly..
It feels like a little pin-prick,and is gone just as quick.
They do make some hot arcs tho..
Try zapping your thumb,while looking at the hot arc ;-)
(okay,so i'm easily amused.)

 

[NunYa Bidness]

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote: [snip]

If you put a diode (in the correct direction), and a capacitor, in series
with the sparker, the capacitor will accept charge every time you click the
sparker, and you will have a manual HV generator.

I already have a manual HV generator. ;-) I think you mean a manual HV
DC generator.

The problem I have is that the diode has to be rated at
several kV, maybe 10kV or more.

Nope. A diode string is perfectly acceptable, but they should be
fairly fast.

Same for the cap and whatever else is
connected to it. It's not like connecting a mechanical generator where
the voltges are 'only' a hundred volts. And I surmise that connecting
a dozen 1N4007 rectifier diodes in series isn't a good idea because they
may have too much capacitance and leakage that's more than the total
current from the piezo.

Nope. Potential is all that is needed to conduct through diodes,
even a string of them. You overcome the junctions, and they conduct.

Like the piezo is dealing with less than a
milliamp, and at 10kV, ten megohms isn't enough resistance, more than a
gigohm is more like it.

It is likely even higher than 10kV.

One click isn't a lot of current.

Sure is. What it is not, is of a high duration. Into a current sink,
the voltage will clamp a bit too.

I would have to have some kind of cam
affair to crank and drive the clicker at more than a click every few
seconds. I think the usefulness of rectifying and filtering the pulese
isn't really much good; like someone said, they're way too high an
impedance. The pulses should be used as pulses, to their best
advantage.


I think there is some amount of reverse voltage, no matter how low it
is.

Think of it like a bouncing basketball. You press it, and it
responds by exhibiting a voltage. AS the pressure is released, it
returns to rest potential of zero. Both are as close to identical as
it gets as long as the mechanical actions both follow the same
timelines. Mechanical force translates directly into electromotive
force. Release returns to zero, and stretch exhibits opposite
polarity EMF.

We made a power supply (actually advanced amplifier) for a
nano-positioner. That is a piezo stack driven device (1 inch x 3
inches @ 80 wafers, seriesed).

The amp peaks at 800 V p-p. The stack causes the stylus tool to move
1 mm. The control is nanometer precise.

This device can take a spinning pin in a lathe, and cut a square
shaft out while the lathe is spinning. The machines are used to cut
raw contact lenses for thoroughbred horses.

The control program learns and makes up for all backlashes, etc.

The stacks are several thousand dollars each, and they have shorting
wires on them, just like HV caps.

So, presumably, one could compress that stack to 0.5 mm, and see a
nearly 400V pulse on the wire.

But I'll never know as long as I don't have any HV probe or other
HV pulse measuring devices.

You need some very high value resistors seriesed together. Like ten
10G Ohm 5 kV flatsos. Read the pulse through the center resistor.
Keep the whole thing floating from earth ground. The wire is one
side, and the metallic base can is the return on the Piezo device.

Multiply your waveform x 10 after any probe multiplications, of
course. I would use a 100V or higher probe.

HV scope probes are several hundred buckaroos... at least the good
ones are.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that "Watson A.Name -

A bit of window glass? According to my ref manual the dielectric
constant of glass is 7.5, so I guess the idea is to get a reasonable
amount of capacitance in a small package.

Not primarily; it's to get a cheap bit of dielectric that will
undoubtedly stand as many kV as the piezo will offer it.

But I could just use a couple plates spaced far enough apart to
prevent arcing.

The GLASS is the spacer!

But what should I be using for the capacitances and ratio? Should I
try for 100:1 divider, or 50:1? 100 pF for the HV cap and 10,000 pF
for the low? Or more for both, or less for both?

What will you scope input stand, and display reasonably? Many these days
don't display much over 50 V p-p. Assume 10 kV, rather than the likely
5 kV, for safety. so you need a division ratio of 10000/50 = 200. Think
10 pF and 200 pF (and don't forget the scope input probably has 50 pF
internally).

I may be able to find a few low value, high voltage capacitors in my
junk box, or from an old TV set. I wonder if a 3kV capacitor is
enough, since it is going to load down the output of the piezo element.

Don't.

 

[NunYa Bidness]

the sensation of the spark is less than the kick from the spring.

You must have had a "dead" one then. I have had some that pack quite
a bite. They do wear out as the pile accumulates fractures.

 

[Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\]

I've been shocked by them several times..intentionaly..
It feels like a little pin-prick,and is gone just as quick.
They do make some hot arcs tho..
Try zapping your thumb,while looking at the hot arc ;-)
(okay,so i'm easily amused.)

So I guess that implies that the current is so low that it's not
affecting the nerves that much. Eh? Besides, the spark is confined to
a small local area, right around the end of the thumb or finger. I
guess that if it were over a wider area, the effects would be more
noticeable (to put it mildly).

But the main stumbling block it seems is getting such a high voltage to
do something useful. I think about how to handle it with instruments or
add it to a circuit, and I come up with the problem of really high
voltage and leakage current problems, and preventing destruction of the
rest of the circuit.

 

[Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\]

kV.

the sensation of the spark is less than the kick from the spring.
voltage.

I'd imagine that too, there could be some harmoonics in there too.


there's not enough current there to damage a led. probably not enough to
light one either,


you could try a flourescent tube too.


those things don't last real long, maybe a couple of thousand operations and
then they're kaput.

Bye.
Jasen

Thanks for the flourescent [sic] tube idea, I hadn't thought about that
yet.

I did think about the fact that these are disposable lighters and that
the ignitor may be designed for a limited lifetime. One thing's for
certain: the strong little spring and plastic shaft make it hard on the
fingers after just a few strokes, so it will have to be put into
something more amenable to being squeezed.

 

[Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that "Watson A.Name -



Not primarily; it's to get a cheap bit of dielectric that will
undoubtedly stand as many kV as the piezo will offer it.


The GLASS is the spacer!

Only 10pF (see below). I've twisted 1.3" (30mm) of 24 gauge solid
tightly and it's about a pF and a half. So for 10pF I'd need about ten
inches, but the problem is that it doesn't have thick enough insulation.
If I could get some 10kV insulated solid wire, I'd guess a foot or two
would give me ten pF. I'm thinking that I could use a center conductor
and its dielectric from a piece of solid RG-58/U, if I wasn't so lazy
as to not want to strip the jacket and shield off it.

But I rummaged arpund in the junk box and found several 2, 3, and 4kV
ceramic disks of cvarious values in the 27 to 270pF range. Later I'm
gonna sit down with the calculator and come up with a few that will add
up to ten pF in series.

What will you scope input stand, and display reasonably? Many these days
don't display much over 50 V p-p.

Max is 20V/cm times 8cm so it'll handle 120V P-P AC. It's an old scope,
from back in the days when toobs were still around and B+ was a couple
hundred volts. So it should be okay with a 100:1 divider.

Assume 10 kV, rather than the likely
5 kV, for safety. so you need a division ratio of 10000/50 = 200. Think
10 pF and 200 pF (and don't forget the scope input probably has 50 pF
internally).

I think the probe has 10pF(?) It's an old probe from a Heathkit scope.
I think that 10pF value may be only on the 10:1 range. I'll have to see
if I have a Heathkit manual with more info.

element.

Don't.

Like I was saying above, I think I can scrounge up enough 3 or 4kV caps
to put several in series, and get the capacitance down to 10pF or so.
These are usually tested to twice their rated value, so if two 3kVs are
in series, they should be able to handle over 10kV, not that they would
ever have to, tho.

One thing I may have a problem with is the single pulse of the output.
The ol' scope may not be able to display a single pulse bright enough if
it's a very fast pulse. Since the piezo element is mechanical I would
expect the pulse to be in the range of greater than 100uS, assuming that
the snap of the spark is in the audible range.

 

[H. Dziardziel]

" snip

So I guess that implies that the current is so low that it's not
affecting the nerves that much. Eh? Besides, the spark is confined to
a small local area, right around the end of the thumb or finger. I
guess that if it were over a wider area, the effects would be more
noticeable (to put it mildly).

The ones in cigarette lighters just barely give a tingle (for me
anyway). Electric acupuncture pens using these are sold in the
Orient. Good for waking oneself when coffee doesn't do it.

 

[amdxjunk]

Hi Watson,
Why don't you start by loading it with 1Meg
resistor in series with a 1k resistor. Measure the voltage across the 1k.
Then do the same with a 100,000k and a 100 ohm. With the info gathered you
can find the internal resistance of the piezo device. I think you will find
it is very high.
You might use 10 100,000k resistors to make your 1Meg, to keep the voltage
low across the resistor.
I think Don Lancaster has some info about piezoelectric devices on his
site, but I can't find it.
Mike K.

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that "Watson A.Name -


Yes. They are like cobras; no matter how carefully you handle one, it'll
bite you eventually.


5-6 kV.

Only if you add long lead-out wires. Otherwise it's short pulse. Think
of it as a 10 nF capacitor you charge by bending it.


You can make a capacitive divider, using a bit of window glass and some
foil for the HV cap at the top.

A bit of window glass? According to my ref manual the dielectric
constant of glass is 7.5, so I guess the idea is to get a reasonable
amount of capacitance in a small package. But I could just use a couple
plates spaced far enough apart to prevent arcing. But what should I be
using for the capacitances and ratio? Should I try for 100:1 divider,
or 50:1? 100 pF for the HV cap and 10,000 pF for the low? Or more for
both, or less for both? I may be able to find a few low value, high
voltage capacitors in my junk box, or from an old TV set. I wonder if a
3kV capacitor is enough, since it is going to load down the output of
the piezo element. Maybe I can put two in series to get half the
capacitance at twice the voltage. Lots of possibilities here, and may
have dire consequences if I make a wrong choice. Ah, well..

[snip]

 

[Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\]

Hi Watson,
Why don't you start by loading it with 1Meg
resistor in series with a 1k resistor. Measure the voltage across the 1k.
Then do the same with a 100,000k and a 100 ohm. With the info gathered you
can find the internal resistance of the piezo device. I think you will find
it is very high.
You might use 10 100,000k resistors to make your 1Meg, to keep the voltage
low across the resistor.

I think you have a bit of a problem with nomenclature here. Ten
100,000K resistors is a gigaohnm. But thank you for the ideas.

I think Don Lancaster has some info about piezoelectric devices on his
site, but I can't find it.
Mike K.
in message news:[email protected]...

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that "Watson A.Name -
<[email protected]>) about 'PiezoElectric Spark
Ignitor', on Mon, 5 Sep 2005:

But I've also found cigarette lighters on occasion, two of them
recently. These two happen to be the kind that uses a piezoelectric
spark ignitor to light the butane. Usually the lighter has been run
over and the guts are easily discarded, or the lighter can be
dsassembled easily and the ignitor can be removed easily.

I'm wondering if anyone has been shocked by one of these.

Yes. They are like cobras; no matter how carefully you handle one, it'll
bite you eventually.

Or been tempted to stick their finger in there and see what it's like.
:-O The spark isn't very hot, but it's up to a quarter inch, maybe
several kV.

5-6 kV.

But what I'm really curious about is what the output waveform is. I
assume it's a damped sine wave

Only if you add long lead-out wires. Otherwise it's short pulse. Think
of it as a 10 nF capacitor you charge by bending it.

but I don't have a HV probe for my 'scope and I don't want to subject
my existing probe to such a huge voltage.

You can make a capacitive divider, using a bit of window glass and some
foil for the HV cap at the top.

A bit of window glass? According to my ref manual the dielectric
constant of glass is 7.5, so I guess the idea is to get a reasonable
amount of capacitance in a small package. But I could just use a couple
plates spaced far enough apart to prevent arcing. But what should I be
using for the capacitances and ratio? Should I try for 100:1 divider,
or 50:1? 100 pF for the HV cap and 10,000 pF for the low? Or more for
both, or less for both? I may be able to find a few low value, high
voltage capacitors in my junk box, or from an old TV set. I wonder if a
3kV capacitor is enough, since it is going to load down the output of
the piezo element. Maybe I can put two in series to get half the
capacitance at twice the voltage. Lots of possibilities here, and may
have dire consequences if I make a wrong choice. Ah, well..

[snip]

natural
selection.

http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[buck rojerz]

I think you have a bit of a problem with nomenclature here. Ten
100,000K resistors is a gigaohnm. But thank you for the ideas.

I don't know if your calculator is busted or what. Last time I looked,
10 X 100,000 is 1,000,000. That is 1 million -or- 1 megohm... not 1
Gigohm.

1 Gigohm is 1000 Megohms -or- 1000 X 100,000.

1 Gigohm is 1 billion ohms.

When you multiply "10s", all you have to do is add up the zeros from each
factor and you have your "powers of 10".

 

[Jim Thompson]

I don't know if your calculator is busted or what. Last time I looked,
10 X 100,000 is 1,000,000. That is 1 million -or- 1 megohm... not 1
Gigohm.

1 Gigohm is 1000 Megohms -or- 1000 X 100,000.

1 Gigohm is 1 billion ohms.

When you multiply "10s", all you have to do is add up the zeros from each
factor and you have your "powers of 10".

He who jumps last, jumps best. You missed the "K" on the end of
100,000K <<<< ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\]

"Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\""

wrote in


I don't know if your calculator is busted or what. Last time I looked,
10 X 100,000 is 1,000,000. That is 1 million -or- 1 megohm... not 1
Gigohm.

1 Gigohm is 1000 Megohms -or- 1000 X 100,000.

1 Gigohm is 1 billion ohms.

When you multiply "10s", all you have to do is add up the zeros from each
factor and you have your "powers of 10".

You had best be going back up above and rereading what's there. It's
_not_ 100,000. It says 100,000k
^
Big difference! And it's not a typo, 'cause it says that value
_twice_!!

And as for your statement above - I quote
"> 1 Gigohm is 1000 Megohms -or- 1000 X 100,000."
You had better review that one, too!