Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Palentir - Communication via quantum entanglement, sans electromangeticwaves?

K

Kevin Aylward

Ken said:
[.. I wrote ..]
No, this is just another case where the cat is both fed and unfed[1]
until you check on it.
Followed by a comment where I explain that two way communication is
needed before you have proven FTL communications.
Ho hum. No it aint.

http://www.anasoft.co.uk/quantummechanics/index.html

"Shrodingers Cat was introduced to prove that the standard Copenhagen
Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics was false. It achieved this, yet
many simply failed to notice."

Your web site states:
The Ensemble Interpretation does not attempt any explanation as to why
Quantum Mechanics is the way it is. It simply states the most
rational way of interpreting and calculating the results without
introducing the blatant contradictions that are indeed in the
Copenhagen interpretation, in addition to removing all excess
metaphysical baggage.

So it isn't really talking about what the true state of affairs for
Shrodinger's cat is.

It says that there is no *actual* combined state, i.e. no *real*
simultaneous dead and alive state. That is, |phy> = |a> + |b> is
mathematical *notation*. As was noted, throwing *classical* dice can be
formulated with the *same* notation, where upon it is clear that there
is no suggestion that a dice can exist in more than one state at once.
The equation only has meaning in calculating results from ensembles of
measurements. The equation is not a statement about an individual
object.

The point is, is that the ensemble interpretation, agrees with all
experimental results, and doesn't require a real physical combined
state. If we don't need an idea, that on its face is daft, why hold on
it it?

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
ueyonder.co.uk>) about 'Palentir - Communication via quantum
entanglement, sans electromangetic waves?', on Tue, 20 Jul 2004:
If we don't need an idea, that on its face is daft, why hold on
it it?
Ask the Pope! (;-)
 
S

Sir Charles W. Shults III

Cecil Moore said:
So the question is: Once the mechanism is understood, can it be
used for FTL communications or does Mother Nature get the last
laugh after all?

No. Here is what is actually observed.
Let's say you produce a pair of entangled photons. They separate and
race apart at the speed of light. Each has a spin that is coupled to the
other.
Now, until we measure the spin, it could be literally anything. But it
cannot be "predetermined" because in quantum mechanics, there are no "hidden
variables". The spin is absolutely unknowable and indeterminate.
Here is the strange part. Once the measurement of one is made, the
indeterminate spin collapses to a known state. Somehow, no matter what that
spin now is, the other photon, regardless of separation, instantaneously
reflects the proper spin to match the entangled state. It is now known.
The "spooky" part is that there is no known or defined mechanism that
can account for this. For instance, how does the other photon "know" what
state will emerge from the indeterminate, quantum-foamy state of the other
photon? There is no stored information anywhere that we can see or measure,
nor does any mechanism seem to exist to inform the other photon what the
spin should be.
If, for instance, both photons shared the information at the outset,
then "hid" it, that would constitute "hidden variables". But experiments
show that no hidden variables exist. There is a hypothesis that something
known as the "Bell continuum" might be where this information is stored, but
once more, forcing the issue on one photon absolutely determines the answer
for the other photon.
Is it useful for communications? So far, no useful answer has emerged,
but we can't really say yet. Let it be known that so far, no matter what
has been tried, nobody can think of a way to send informtion this way, and
causality seems to make it impossible to do.

Cheers!

Sir Charles W. Shults III, K. B. B.
Xenotech Research
321-206-1840
 
J

John Larkin

Is it useful for communications? So far, no useful answer has emerged,
but we can't really say yet. Let it be known that so far, no matter what
has been tried, nobody can think of a way to send informtion this way, and
causality seems to make it impossible to do.

Is there something fundamentally anti-causal about FTL communications?

John
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Sir Charles W. Shults III
ay.rr.com>) about 'Palentir - Communication via quantum entanglement,
sans electromangetic waves?', on Tue, 20 Jul 2004:
Let it be known that so far, no
matter what has been tried, nobody can think of a way to send informtion
this way, and causality seems to make it impossible to do.

But entanglement itself at least seriously compromises the concept of
'causality', if not destroying it, because there is no conceived 'cause'
of the spin of the second photon becoming determinate.
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <movqf0lug9n7mu6vs9qf8vau3c8jjcak1l@
4ax.com>) about 'Palentir - Communication via quantum entanglement, sans
electromangetic waves?', on Tue, 20 Jul 2004:
Is there something fundamentally anti-causal about FTL communications?

It seems so, in Special Relativity. You can arrive before you left.
AIUI, you can't do that in GR, probably. Maybe. Until next week? Or
perhaps last week? (;-)
 
J

John Larkin

I read in sci.electronics.design that Sir Charles W. Shults III
ay.rr.com>) about 'Palentir - Communication via quantum entanglement,
sans electromangetic waves?', on Tue, 20 Jul 2004:

But entanglement itself at least seriously compromises the concept of
'causality', if not destroying it, because there is no conceived 'cause'
of the spin of the second photon becoming determinate.

The only thing that's certain about the entangled particles in-flight
is that their spins are opposite. So when you measure the spin of one,
the other becomes known. There doesn't seem to be anything non-causal
about that, and there's really no ftl force-at-distance involved. QM
does all sorts of things that don't make common sense, but are just
true. Interferance is at least as mysterious (more, to me, than qe.)

What's really weird is that, if you measure the spins of randomized
particles using the up/down criterion, 50% are up and 50% are down.
And if you measure the same particle stream left-right, 50% are left
and 50% are right. Entanglement is only slightly stranger, in that you
know the paired spins are opposite.


John
 
P

Paul Burridge

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <movqf0lug9n7mu6vs9qf8vau3c8jjcak1l@
4ax.com>) about 'Palentir - Communication via quantum entanglement, sans
electromangetic waves?', on Tue, 20 Jul 2004:


It seems so, in Special Relativity. You can arrive before you left.
AIUI, you can't do that in GR

You can't do it with BR either (our hopeless national rail service is
going back to its old name, I believe). ;-)
 
C

Cecil Moore

Scott said:
So you can't built an FTL quantum computer to build a "Maxwell Demon"
thermodynamic robot to separate hot and cold particles to reap free energy.

The energy from the sun is free for as long as it lasts. Why isn't the
energy supporting free space available and just as free? The worst thing
that could happen is if you remove the energy, space collapses into
absolute nothing. Just don't do it on my property.
 
C

Cecil Moore

Paul said:
Stick to the maths, Kev! ;->

"Maths"??? Is that a difference between GB English and
US English? (Some say "American English" is an oxymoron. :)
 
C

Clifford Heath

Sir said:
The "spooky" part is that there is no known or defined mechanism that
can account for this. For instance, how does the other photon "know" what
state will emerge from the indeterminate, quantum-foamy state of the other
photon? There is no stored information anywhere that we can see or measure,
nor does any mechanism seem to exist to inform the other photon what the
spin should be.

I have often wondered if the problem is with our understanding of
space itself, and that although the entangled particles seem to be
flying apart at the speed of light, in fact they are just projections
into our perceived 3D space of the same object - hence no problem
about its "other face" instantaneously knowing what the state is.
Just an off-the-wall idea...
 
C

Cecil Moore

Sir said:
Here is the strange part. Once the measurement of one is made, the
indeterminate spin collapses to a known state. Somehow, no matter what that
spin now is, the other photon, regardless of separation, instantaneously
reflects the proper spin to match the entangled state.

The two particles are obviously attached through a wormhole in space-time.
Is it useful for communications? So far, no useful answer has emerged,

200 years ago, no useful answer for fast communication between New York and
San Francisco had emerged - so please stand by. What was the % improvement
from the Pony Express to RF?
 
C

Cecil Moore

John said:
But entanglement itself at least seriously compromises the concept of
'causality', if not destroying it, because there is no conceived 'cause'
of the spin of the second photon becoming determinate.

And remember that QEM which has never been proven wrong (to the best of
my knowledge) supports particles that necessarily travel back in time.
 
C

Cecil Moore

John said:
What's really weird is that, if you measure the spins of randomized
particles using the up/down criterion, 50% are up and 50% are down.

So what is to prohibit a deviation from that absolute average from
representing a one or a zero?
 
K

Ken Smith

Ken Smith wrote: [...]
Your web site states:
The Ensemble Interpretation does not attempt any explanation as to why
Quantum Mechanics is the way it is. It simply states the most
rational way of interpreting and calculating the results without
introducing the blatant contradictions that are indeed in the
Copenhagen interpretation, in addition to removing all excess
metaphysical baggage.

So it isn't really talking about what the true state of affairs for
Shrodinger's cat is.

It says that there is no *actual* combined state, i.e. no *real*
simultaneous dead and alive state. That is, |phy> = |a> + |b> is
mathematical *notation*.

I disagree. What it really says is that the theory does not address the
question of why the calculations work. It proposes a method of
calculation that seems to always be verified by our experiments. There
was a time when classic physics was in this same position. The theory and
calculations seemed to mathc evry experiment. Then someone found that
things like orbit of Mercury did not match the theory. Until two way
communication is done by quantum entanglement, FTL is at risk of being
disproven. If it is that wave function for a cat will look much better.

[...]
If we don't need an idea, that on its face is daft, why hold on
it it?

I don't see it as "daft". It is troubling and counterintuitive but not
daft.

I don't need the idea of chocolate ice cream.
 
K

Ken Smith

Sir Charles W. Shults III said:
The "spooky" part is that there is no known or defined mechanism that
can account for this. For instance, how does the other photon "know" what
state will emerge from the indeterminate, quantum-foamy state of the other
photon?

Some would say "its magic". Thats a defined mechanism isn't it?
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Cecil Moore <[email protected]>
wrote (in <[email protected]>) about 'Palentir -
Communication via quantum entanglement, sans electromangetic waves?', on
Tue, 20 Jul 2004:
"Maths"??? Is that a difference between GB English and
US English?

Yes. Brits know several math. (;-)
(Some say "American English" is an oxymoron. :)

It's not an oxymoron, it's wrong. Translators recognize at least US
English and Canadian English as distinct. A case can also be made for an
'English' of each Central and South American country, with varying
degrees of distinction.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Ken said:
Ken Smith wrote: [...]
Your web site states:
The Ensemble Interpretation does not attempt any explanation as to
why Quantum Mechanics is the way it is. It simply states the most
rational way of interpreting and calculating the results without
introducing the blatant contradictions that are indeed in the
Copenhagen interpretation, in addition to removing all excess
metaphysical baggage.

So it isn't really talking about what the true state of affairs for
Shrodinger's cat is.

It says that there is no *actual* combined state, i.e. no *real*
simultaneous dead and alive state. That is, |phy> = |a> + |b> is
mathematical *notation*.

I disagree. What it really says is that the theory does not address
the question of why the calculations work.

That's correct, it doesn't address why the calculations work from a
physical point of view, but this directly means that it doesn't require
that an object can be simultaneously in two states. As I keep pointing
out, if we take the classical ensemble of dice throwing, there is
obviously no need to introduce the concept of the dice being in 6 states
at once, so why do it for the quantum case? The same math works the same
in both cases. Introducing a multistate condition is superfluous, so
again, why do it? Its an add on that has give us no new information.
It proposes a method of
calculation that seems to always be verified by our experiments.
There was a time when classic physics was in this same position. The
theory and calculations seemed to mathc evry experiment. Then
someone found that things like orbit of Mercury did not match the
theory. Until two way communication is done by quantum entanglement,
FTL is at risk of being disproven.
If it is that wave function for a
cat will look much better.

I dont see that this follows at all.
[...]
If we don't need an idea, that on its face is daft, why hold on
it it?

I don't see it as "daft".

Of course it is.
It is troubling and counterintuitive but
not daft.

The adage here is that it has become fashionable to believe in daft
ideas.

People think that their cool for convincing themselves that they think
they understand a counterintuitive idea, and that others are too stupid
to understand how they have seen the light. Sure, there are
counterintuitive ideas that are valid, but many in QM are not. They came
about when people were just developing the theory and knew no better.
For example, I gave this link in my paper
http://www.phys.tue.nl/ktn/Wim/qm11.htm#ind part int.

e.g. "This may be due to the popular idea of particle-wave duality,
having been developed in the Copenhagen interpretation during the early
stages of the development of quantum mechanics, but being obsolete by
now."

Many are simply stuck in the mud of 80 year old dated QM ideas. One
needs to move on. QM simply doesn't require most of the daft ideas that
were originally associated with QM, So, as I keep saying, why use them?.
The basic reason for claims like "two states at once" is that one is
trying to force a classical description on to something that doesn't
have a classical description. Obviously, this will cause a logical
contradiction, as indeed it does.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

John said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin
<movqf0lug9n7mu6vs9qf8vau3c8jjcak1l@ 4ax.com>) about 'Palentir -
Communication via quantum entanglement, sans electromangetic waves?',


It seems so, in Special Relativity. You can arrive before you left.

Nope. The order of events cannot change in SR.
AIUI, you can't do that in GR, probably. Maybe.

Maybe. It is GR that has closed timelike paths.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Kevin said:
Ken Smith wrote:
People think that their cool for convincing themselves that they think
they understand a counterintuitive idea, and that others are too
stupid to understand how they have seen the light. Sure, there are
counterintuitive ideas that are valid, but many in QM are not. They
came about when people were just developing the theory and knew no
better. For example, I gave this link in my paper
http://www.phys.tue.nl/ktn/Wim/qm11.htm#ind part int.

e.g. "This may be due to the popular idea of particle-wave duality,
having been developed in the Copenhagen interpretation during the
early stages of the development of quantum mechanics, but being
obsolete by now."

And you might have a look at
http://www.phys.tue.nl/ktn/Wim/NeoCopFOP3.pdf
especially section 3.2.1 "Which way experiments"

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
Top